Road deaths and driver categories

Mr_Roger_Bongos

I was just wondering -
I hear all the time on these boards, people saying "increase the fines/penalties, that will slow them down, and save lives"

Do the government or road safety ever produce figures like -

Fatal accident, causing drivers;
- On provisional licenses
- With prior traffic law infringements (e.g. points and fines)
- Accident causes e.g. speed, slow reactions like they would alcohol? (i realised those categories are all kind of linked).

Because id say there's a strong correlation between the lack of full licenses e.g. provisional drivers, driving without a licensed driver (i realise its illegal but we all know it's not enforced well) and road fatalities.

Then if you were to compare this figure with the U.K. or even Northern Irelands figures, would there be a difference? I blame the system of provisional licenses and people driving on L-plates without licensed drivers on alot of accidents, but i can't find any figures to disprove my theory. Any know if they're produced? Opinions on the theory?

Tipsy Mac

Yes statistics would be nice for drink driving too, I would like to see a county per county breakdown of drink driving arrests per 10,000 drivers over a year. I would say a couple of counties would feature alot higher than any others.

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

Mr_Roger_Bongos wrote:

Because id say there's a strong correlation between the lack of full licenses e.g. provisional drivers, driving without a licensed driver (i realise its illegal but we all know it's not enforced well) and road fatalities.

i would say your are right, but as of yet no figures.

but i would say its an obvious connection

gline

yeh it would make sense alright, but isnt the whole provisional system changing very soon? or is that one of those things that is put on the long finger??

Padraig Mor

AFAIK the stats that are available (sorry, no link - was posted here some time ago) show that provisionally licenced drivers make up a lower proportion of drivers involved in fatal accidents than their proportion of overall drivers, i.e. they are less likely to be involved in a fatal accident that a 'full' driver.

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

gline wrote:

yeh it would make sense alright, but isnt the whole provisional system changing very soon? or is that one of those things that is put on the long finger??

long finger id say, i presume the wont release the stats because it would just highlight more issues with provisional holders.

overdriver

Why has everyone got a bee in their bonnet about provisional drivers lately? This smacks of the '80's when people were told unmarried mothers were the trouble with Ireland. Now it's illegal immigrants.
It's just to distract you from what the Government is really doing wrong.

The only time I've ever crashed was on the M50 , when I came around a bend and the traffic was stopped completely.

The stats don't bear up the notion that provisional drivers cause crashes. So they should be down on our list of culprits, and priorities.

I would wager traffic being at a standstill everywhere you go in Dublin from 7 am til 11 and from 3 to 7 in the evening might be more hazardous than someone who's waiting on a test, and may very well pass it driving unaccompanied beside you.

However, the majority of road deaths happen outside Dublin on less-than-perfect roads. There's nowt about prov drivers there.

I have had a full licence for more than 10 years, before anyone starts.

kluivert

This should be available under the freedom of information act

Seth Brundle

overdriver wrote:

The only time I've ever crashed was on the M50 , when I came around a bend and the traffic was stopped completely.

the worst part of the M50 for visibility would be from Firhouse to Dundrum. however, I still can't see how you could not stop in time - the visibility isn't that bad!

Eoin

kbannon wrote:

the worst part of the M50 for visibility would be from Firhouse to Dundrum. however, I still can't see how you could not stop in time - the visibility isn't that bad!

Not too sure if it's on the M50 or the M11 (I can never remember exactly where one turns into the other), but there are some nasty curves there, where you can literally go from cruising at close to the speed limit to completely stopped traffic very quickly.

Kimbot

The stats were shown not too long ago, About 2 months ago the government were blaming young males for the death tolls, when you checked the stats of deaths on RTE, young males accounted for less than 22% of deaths up to that point!! Out of those 22% only a few were on a provisional and the stats didn't say wether it was first or second!!

You can't blame provisional drivers for everything!! Remeber you had to had a provisional to learn how to drive! Alot of the "Full" drivers out there are lethal on the roads because how they see it is they done their test and they have nothing to prove to anyone so they can speed, not indicate, pick whichever lane they want and generally act the fecking idiots on the roads!! I think people should stop blaming ALL PROVISIONAL DRIVERS for the deaths on the roads and instead blame those that are responsible....... the drivers themselves that cause the accidents!!

Eoin

jonny24ie wrote:

The stats were shown not too long ago, About 2 months ago the government were blaming young males for the death tolls, when you checked the stats of deaths on RTE, young males accounted for less than 22% of deaths up to that point!! Out of those 22% only a few were on a provisional and the stats didn't say wether it was first or second!!

Is that 22% the percentage of young males that were killed, or the percentage of road deaths that their driving was responsible for?

Del2005

How can they blame provisional licence hodlers when in the 1979 they gave thousands of people, some of whom had failed their test, full licences to clear the queues. These people had been proven unfit to drive yet they got a full licence.

A similar situation nearly 20 years ago led to the then Minister of the Environment, Sylvester Barrett, granting the now infamous 1979 `licence amnesty' which granted full licences to those who held a second or subsequent provisional licence.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=617813&issue_id=6181

gline

jonny24ie wrote:

Alot of the "Full" drivers out there are lethal on the roads because how they see it is they done their test and they have nothing to prove to anyone so they can speed, not indicate, pick whichever lane they want and generally act the fecking idiots on the roads!! I think people should stop blaming ALL PROVISIONAL DRIVERS for the deaths on the roads and instead blame those that are responsible....... the drivers themselves that cause the accidents!!

this is definitly true, i dont think the problem can be blamed on provisional drivers, however I think what the government is doing is looking at different countries with lower road death per drivers on the road and seeing what they are doing differently that might contribute to this. And to be honest Ireland must be one of the very few countries that allows a driver with no previous experience to drive on the road. Now i know the law states that you have to have an experienced driver in the car with you, but lets be honest it is not enforced, and allowing a person to drive on a 2nd provisional on their own??? what makes them any more experienced than a 1st provisonal driver? What most young people do is get a 1st provisional at 17/18 for ID purposes and then wait until they have a 2nd and then get a car.

Most other countries it is far stricter when it comes to learning to drive. That is why people blame provisonal drivers as we are practically the only country that have this easygoing system when it comes to learning to drive (failing a test and then driving home :rolleyes: ).

Of course it isnt the only problem, there are a lot of other problems

why dont they teach children in secondary school the rules of the road and driving theory and give them lessons in dual controlled cars??? makes sense... teach them when they are young to drive properly

Kimbot

eoin_s wrote:

Is that 22% the percentage of young males that were killed, or the percentage of road deaths that their driving was responsible for?

22% of young males that were killed altogether!!

If I remember rightly the over all was about 7% drivers of the vehicles and the other 15% were passengers!!

overdriver

kbannon wrote:

the worst part of the M50 for visibility would be from Firhouse to Dundrum. however, I still can't see how you could not stop in time - the visibility isn't that bad!

It was a few cars ago, so at least 4 or 5 years ago. It wasn't quite so usual then to have the M50 completely stop back then. So I was doing the limit, going from Firhouse northbound. Turned to say something to the missus, and all of a sudden, the cars in front were stopped. I almost stopped myself, but not quite.
Quite my own fault, and the last time I ever turned my head to speak to a passenger, but I'd have been fine if traffic wasn't stopeed so abruptly. A couple of other cars shunted that day as well, according to the council guy who came out of nowhere to take photos.

Mr_Roger_Bongos

jonny24ie wrote:

The stats were shown not too long ago

If the stats were shown or displayed for the public they should be available online, but i can't find them.

jonny24ie wrote:

You can't blame provisional drivers for everything!! ......................I think people should stop blaming ALL PROVISIONAL DRIVERS

I can honestly say, and this is why i posted this thread, iv never heard provisional drivers being accused of causing accidents on Irish roads.

jonny24ie wrote:

instead blame those that are responsible....... the drivers themselves that cause the accidents!!

I don't think people blame those who don't cause accidents.

Can anyone direct me to the figures? Or am i gonna have to make an application under the freedom of informaiton act (couldn't be arsed)

Victor

\m/_(>_<)_\m/ wrote:

gline wrote:

yeh it would make sense alright, but isnt the whole provisional system changing very soon? or is that one of those things that is put on the long finger??

long finger id say, i presume the wont release the stats because it would just highlight more issues with provisional holders.

Under the 2006 Road Traffic Act, the concept is changed to a learner permit.

Kimbot

Mr_Roger_Bongos wrote:

If the stats were shown or displayed for the public they should be available online, but i can't find them.




I can honestly say, and this is why i posted this thread, iv never heard provisional drivers being accused of causing accidents on Irish roads.



I don't think people blame those who don't cause accidents.

Can anyone direct me to the figures? Or am i gonna have to make an application under the freedom of informaiton act (couldn't be arsed)

The way I worked them out was go to www.rte.ie and there is a detailed list of all deaths on the roads this year!! Then I went looking for stories online about the accidents to work the rest out according to the names on the list and the dates!!

Lemming

Mr_Roger_Bongos wrote:

I can honestly say, and this is why i posted this thread, iv never heard provisional drivers being accused of causing accidents on Irish roads.

Really?

You're the first person to say that. Everyone else seems to be wailing about the evils of provisional license holders. How they're the anti-christ, cause of Iraq, Afghanistan, housing costs, oil costs, global warming, corrupt irish government, corrupt gardai, shambles of a health service, and future invasion by martians when it happens.

I don't think people blame those who don't cause accidents.

Would you mind awfully telling everyone else that please? Because it would appear that people think otherwise.

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

Lemming wrote:

You're the first person to say that. Everyone else seems to be wailing about the evils of provisional license holders. How they're the anti-christ, cause of Iraq, Afghanistan, housing costs, oil costs, global warming, corrupt irish government, corrupt gardai, shambles of a health service, and future invasion by martians when it happens.

wow man....you have issues.

Lemming

\m/_(>_<)_\m/ wrote:

wow man....you have issues.

The only issue I have is with the sheer ignorance being displayed to provisional license holders. We (myself included) are getting it in the neck from f*ckwit idiots who want to pander to the lowest common denominator of public "lust" for blame. People who want to blame everybody except themselves because they're so perfect that it coultn't possibly be them, no not at all. Not even when they're tailgating at speed. Or cutting across oncoming traffic at the last second. Or driving aggressively. Or overtaking in insane situations. Or reversing back down the hard-shoulder of a motorway to drive up an off-ramp. Noooo, not them at all.

Take a long, hard, f*cking look at the statistics. then look at the general attitude and what's being written regarding provisional license holders, and then ask yourself where the smell of bullsh*t is coming from. Because it isn't from the statistics.

And if I'm not mistaken, you were the very one less than a week ago leading the "charge" against provisional licence holders.

Budd

Last I read (think it was in the Independant about a year ago) was that provisional liscence drivers were involved in few accidents per head than full liscenced. Now I can't be sure whether this was fatal accidents or just althogether.

Stephen

That may also have something to do with the fact that a lot of (young) people get provisional licences as a form of ID, rather than to drive a car -- at least that was the case when I was 16/17.

Vegeta

i really wish they'd publish a full list of stats not only about fatal accidents but all accidents.

Age
sex
license
blood alcahol
type of car
location including speed limit and road name
weather
etc etc

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

Lemming wrote:

Take a long, hard, f*cking look at the statistics.

can you post a link to where we can find these "statistics" so that we all can take a long hard look at them as you have.

thanks in advance for the link.

Seth Brundle

\m/_(>_<)_\m/ wrote:

wow man....you have issues.

pot...kettle...black
Yet another reporting of your posts!
take a weeks holidays!

Victor

Vegeta wrote:

Age
sex
weather

These are readily available here: http://www.nra.ie/PublicationsResources/DownloadableDocumentation/RoadSafety/file,1948,en.pdf

Vegeta wrote:

license
blood alcahol

I imagine these tables could be created although I don't know if there is enough organised information available to create them at the moment.

type of car

Very difficult to tabulate, too many types and sub-types. However, vehicle type is given (car, goods, bus, etc.)

location including speed limit and road name

Tabulated by council area.

Including all of the information on a GIS system is done, but I'm not sure how practical it is to make it public.