Poker in the CV

sikes

Im in my final year of Computer Science and in the middle of doing my CV. I am applying to various banks and investment houses in the UK. I would have assumed that poker would be a good hobby for such a job, however i am unsure.

What are peoples thoughts on putting poker into your cv and has anyone talked about poker in a interview?

any help much appreciated.

(Im not applying for an IT job, but as a trader)

breadmonkey

You think that poker is something that a banking company is looking for on a CV?! You must be out of your mind. Unless the people looking through the CV are poker players themselves, they will not like it. Definitely don't put it on.

jonnner

It would definately not be a good idea. Most people think Poker is just gambling.
Bankroll management and discipline at the table may be similar to skills needed in the workplace but its just not worth the hassle of trying to convince a potential employer.
Just say your into something more socially acceptable like Golf or Roulette;)

jbravado

I agree.Not a good idea imo.

breadmonkey

jonnner wrote:

It would definately not be a good idea. Most people think Poker is just gambling.
Bankroll management and discipline at the table may be similar to skills needed in the workplace but its just not worth the hassle of trying to convince a potential employer.
Just say your into something more socially acceptable like Golf or Roulette;)

I think Roulette would be worse, lol!

sikes

thats what i thought at first however this is a post from a while ago about strassa2 going to be a trader, in it he says they look favourably on poker skills

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=7681342&an=0&page=7#Post7681342

and i aint out of my mind, just yet!

poker is risk management, trading is risk management. they do have a lot in common.

luckylucky

sikes wrote:

Im in my final year of Computer Science and in the middle of doing my CV. I am applying to various banks and investment houses in the UK. I would have assumed that poker would be a good hobby for such a job, however i am unsure.

What are peoples thoughts on putting poker into your cv and has anyone talked about poker in a interview?

any help much appreciated.

(Im not applying for an IT job, but as a trader)

I totally agree with others that u should not put it in ur CV.
Though on ur question about it coming up in a job interview I was a computer programmer till a few months ago.
A couple of years ago I had been doing other work in the computer industry when I went for this interview ina financial firm.

I told my potential employers that I had been working on my own computer program and so keeping up the programming.
I needed to show I had been keeping my hand in so 2 speak.
The program was a poker tracker type thing for the prima network, so the subject of poker came up.
I kinda had 2 admit i played, I did my best to play down the amount I actually played, but i dont think they quite bought my poker face.
Sstill though i got da job (though whether that was a good thing or not is debatable!) - think it had largely due to the fact that my employers were around da same age i.e. early 30s at da time and they were kinda intrigued by da poker thing more than put off but they would defo b da exception rather than da rule.
Basically i took a gamble that demonstrating my computer programming interest even though it mentioned poker was better than saying nothing and that time it payed off.

anyway definitely don't put it on ur cv unless u r lookin for a job with pokerstars or s.thng.

breadmonkey

sikes wrote:

thats what i thought at first however this is a post from a while ago about strassa2 going to be a trader, in it he says they look favourably on poker skills

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=7681342&an=0&page=7#Post7681342

and i aint out of my mind, just yet!

poker is risk management, trading is risk management. they do have a lot in common.

If I was you I would look for harder evidence than some random poster saying it's a good thing, before putting it on a CV.

sikes

breadmonkey wrote:

If I was you I would look for harder evidence than some random poster saying it's a good thing, before putting it on a CV.

thats what im doing

breadmonkey

sikes wrote:

thats what im doing

Ok fair enough. I would suggest taking it to the Work & Jobs forum to see what some non-poker players think.

sikes

good thinking, cheers

bops

most potential employers will look at poker on your cv as plain gambling - therefore big NO NO

but at interview stage it may be benificial (if you get a good read on your interviewer) to explain that you enjoy tournament poker and to back it up with examples why the skills that you enjoy so much are very reliavant to the position in question - i can see this as being benificial in the correct setting

...better than the usual; reading,cinema, socializing etc etc

ollyk1

If you talk about odds, incomplete information betting, game selection and maintaining your edge in the game. (i.e. Come across as quite cerebral about the game as well as not being afraid to back a strong conviction in the long run) poker could be a very useful conversation to have with the right employer in the right circumstances.

I wouldn't place it very prominently in any versions of my CV but for the right position and niche bank or asset manager I would slip it in there and play it by ear at the interview.

I have heard of certain trading jobs where poker was played at the less formal all day interview stage where discussions on pot odds etc were raised with some of the candidates potential future colleagues.

It all depends on the exact position you are applying for to be honest. I'd also be sure to be very comfortable talking about the future for online gaming and the buying/selling opportuniites in the industry etc. If you put something like this in your CV (poker, cinema etc.) when going for such a position be prepared to talk about the industry from an investor point of view fairly quickly. Otherwise you are wasting an opportunity to display your talents and your appropriateness for the position.

Just my 2c.

luckylucky

breadmonkey wrote:

If I was you I would look for harder evidence than some random poster saying it's a good thing, before putting it on a CV.

Don't think that strassa guy is any random poster - afaik he's a big online winner - i might be wrong but pretty sure he won either the stars or party 1 mill guaranteed recently.

begs da question i s'pose why da hell does he want a Real job!

NickyOD

I don't think there should be a problem at all depending on how you phrase it. You don't want to say that you sit up late at night playing internet poker 20 hours a week, but if you put into the "hobbies and echievements" section of your CV that you enjoy it as a hobby and have played in major tournaments like the Dublin EPT it can only improve your profile as a clever and interesting person. Any employer who would see that in a negative way would just be stupid.

Mr. Flibble

Funny timing. I had an interview today and brought it up. It came up as I was asked about what I did between finishing college and now so I said I started writing one poker programand then developed another with another programmer. Later in the interview I brought up that I built poker tables (planning, teamwork ughcetra) and they commented on the trend on my hobby interests. Don't know if I was better off giving them this info or not. I don't have it on my CV.

I didn't discuss the playing aspect of poker (think i did ages ago in other interviews, didnt get the job) - but if I did I wouldn't let it look like I was playing down how much I play - wouldn't want to look like I were ashamed of playing. I would try to relate it to being the house in roulette where you have an edge over the other players and must only make sure never to invest too much on a single spin. No different than buying and selling in real life or whatever.

robinlacey

you should read the thread linked to above,and also search twoplustwo for other discussions on the same topic...

basically whenever this comes up the consensus seems to be that,in the field of finance specifically,you should mention playing poker and it will be seen as a plus point if you are obviously knowledgeable about the game,have approached it methodically and intelligently,and are successful...

as well as strassa saying he felt it helped him get interviews with all the most prestigious wall street firms despite not having a degree in the area and not having a particularly impressive degree,there have been various other threads in which people have reported back on how discussing poker went in interviews,and almost all reports have been positive....

there was also a thread from someone who is in a managment position in the banking industry who said he would definitely consider someone being a successful poker to be a plus point in this specific field....

however,this assumes that you are successful,and will be able to explain how an understanding of poker theory and EV combined with bankroll management,dedication and discipline led to success in the poker world
if you play a bit here and there at low stakes and sometimes make a bit which you cash out and spend,its probably not worth mentioning,however if you have been consistantly successful for some time having applied yourself to it properly and are able to discuss this eloquently,it will definitely be seen as a plus point...

nicnicnic

Think you would need to be very lucky to get an interviewer whom looked positively on poker, definitely an -ev play. Golf usually goes down well

sikes

if i was going for a small firm, then i prob wouldnt considering their HR staff wouldnt be as well trained, but i do think that in the bigger firms its a good idea as their staff will know all sorts of backgrounds suited for the job.

i enjoy the competitive side and can talk about theory, br management etc with ease. i have only known the rules of poker for 14 months, so its a short time, so the pinnacle of my *career* i guess was playing in the ept last week but i am a winning player, though over a very small sample size

MrPillowTalk

I am a poker player and I would look on it as a negative in anyone I interview.

I have kept poker hidden from all the bank managers I deal with in business untill one of the managers assistants came accross the poker forum on boards and outed me so to speak. This particular manager advised me that allthough he couldnt care less it would be unwise to flaunt the information to other managers from bank centre etc as they just dont like the idea of lending to a gambler.

robinlacey

people keep saying that most interviewers would be shocked,consider poker gambling,etc
this may be so for a lot of jobs,but the point i'm making is that,specifically in the field of finance,this is not the case,and from what i've read by people with experience in the area a knowledge of poker and history of some success would be seen as a good thing...

sprocket1

un know the geeky guy who won the wsop main event in 03 before chris m/maker i was watchin a tv programme about him after her won and it talked about and showed him applying for jobs in the financial sector ,i think
he was an accountant too and it didnt go down too well either when he said what his hobby was

spectre

It depends on the job really, most employers will view it as negative.

If applying for a job as a Financial Trader, it would probably be beneficial to put it on the CV and not only this, you should probably put down any big tournament wins in the achievment section.

I am aware of a Trading house in Dublin where poker is seen as a huge plus. Questions about pot odds etc are asked at interview and as far as I know the traders play together in the office after they finish work.

sprocket1

o yea, theres a new card room opening up in navan ,well it got the change of use planning permission through , being opened by a local morgage/financial advisior called bernard woods dont know if he has sorted out staff ,management etc why not contact him nicky ..........
we're only a hour from dublin........

woods financial services , 8 market square ,navan, co.meath
046 9029538 /fax 9029587

sikes

sprocket1 wrote:

o yea, theres a new card room opening up in navan ,well it got the change of use planning permission through , being opened by a local morgage/financial advisior called bernard woods dont know if he has sorted out staff ,management etc why not contact him nicky ..........
we're only a hour from dublin........

im not quite sure what to say to this!

this is turning out to be a bit of a major issue now, cos i am really confused about what to do. i will see if there is any more suggestions in the morning, have to have it done tomorrow. will have another look at 2+2 but poker is more mainstream in the US compared to UK and ireland

Sangre

Put it on my interests in my applications for trainee apprenticeships. Meh. I think the rest of the CV will show I've still got my act together despite being a degenerate gambler.
If its brought up I'll explain how it something that mentally challenges me and that one can continuely learn and research about. I'll say I probably spend more time reading about it than playing. Its a fiercly competive hobby that involves complicated mathematics, strong intra-personal skills (reading/poker face) requires the ability to act under pressure.
I'll also mention that I've invested no personal money into my bankroll.

MrPillowTalk

sprocket1 wrote:

o yea, theres a new card room opening up in navan ,well it got the change of use planning permission through , being opened by a local morgage/financial advisior called bernard woods dont know if he has sorted out staff ,management etc why not contact him nicky ..........
we're only a hour from dublin........

woods financial services , 8 market square ,navan, co.meath
046 9029538 /fax 9029587

You dont happen to know the planning application number or anything do you? I was considering applying for change of use in a building on Gardiner street but never went any further than idea stage with it.

nicnicnic

I was working in an accounting firm last year and had a decent tournament result which I mentioned it to a co worker. He told one of the partners who brought it at a review, my read was that he was appalled. Suddenly my quality of work, time keeping absenteeism was an issue. I was gone within two weeks of my own accord but really it was just a matter of time before i was pushed out.

sprocket1

na, sorry ,heard about it by word of mouth and then saw the application in the local rag a while ago ,nothing to do with me personally apart from the fact that i may frequent it on occasion

sikes

nicnicnic wrote:

I was working in an accounting firm last year and had a decent tournament result which I mentioned it to a co worker. He told one of the partners who brought it at a review, my read was that he was appalled. Suddenly my quality of work, time keeping absenteeism was an issue. I was gone within two weeks of my own accord but really it was just a matter of time before i was pushed out.

when i am applying to accountancy firms, which i do see myself doing, i aint saying anything about poker!

sprocket1

sorry sikes , i thought nicky had started the tread
oops appologies allround

hotspur

The guy is talking about trading jobs people!
Definitely put it on your CV, I've read many many advertisments for such jobs where they specifically mentioned that having an interest in poker would be an advantage and I know for a fact that it is often encouraged in young traders.

You've also learned an important lesson here about asking poker players for good advice about anything other than strictly poker - don't!

gosplan

Hobbies: Stong intrest in game theory and simulations.

gosplan

To be honest I'd say that a few years ago it may have helped. Nowadays everyone plays at some time or another so it's not going to do that much for you. Add that to the chance that they may view it negatively and it's just a bad move.

Perhaps put down something about game strategy, mention 'go' or something and then if they ask mention poker.

It's a big risk.

If two of you are neck and neck for the job I'd say there's more of a chance of them not giving it to you based on poker then the other way around.

paul8200

I've worked in IT/Financial services for 15 years. Unless you have a very good tell do not mention poker. It is still a very conservative industry.

damnyanks

Poker has no real relevane to trading. Any form of investment house will look far beyond basic risk techniques. Anything basic (single stock cash equities) will be handled by computers and so on.

I wouldn't advise putting it down unless you have some serious achievment in it. At the end of the day poker is a game so if you are really stuck for things to put on your CV go for it but if thats the case you probably won't fare so well with the bigger players.

sikes

damnyanks wrote:

Poker has no real relevane to trading. Any form of investment house will look far beyond basic risk techniques. Anything basic (single stock cash equities) will be handled by computers and so on.

I wouldn't advise putting it down unless you have some serious achievment in it. At the end of the day poker is a game so if you are really stuck for things to put on your CV go for it but if thats the case you probably won't fare so well with the bigger players.

Just to be clear, I dont think that because i play poker i will walk straight onto the floor and be a hotshot! but i do think that poker should take precedence in my cv ahead of, say, sound engineering or something like that, solely because the skills used are of more relevance to trading.

A trading firm uses a poker tournament to hire staff
http://www.alacrastore.com/storecontent/newstex/KRTB-0160-11557568

and again
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/business/15832586.htm

Poker and trading have a lot of similarities, such as making good decisions under pressure," Yass said. "It teaches you to deal with losing even when you make the right decision.

CodeMonkey

Actually poker is quite relevant to investment banking from the little that I know. I am guessing they like the skills of evaluating risk vs return, how you handle pressure etc. A mate of mine's brother worked for an investment bank in the states for a year and was thought how to play poker. The banks actually hired professional poker players to train up their new investment banking recruits. He was a winning player on the $20/40 nl tables until he quit cause it was taking too much of his time. Put it on the CV anyway as your hobby along with other interests. If they ask you about it, great.

RoundTower

If you're a world class player who's won $x million in the last few years and is looking for a change of pace/thinks he could do even better in trading, then yes by all means mention this. For everyone else, don't bother.

Linford

sikes wrote:

Just to be clear, I dont think that because i play poker i will walk straight onto the floor and be a hotshot! but i do think that poker should take precedence in my cv ahead of, say, sound engineering or something like that, solely because the skills used are of more relevance to trading.

A trading firm uses a poker tournament to hire staff
http://www.alacrastore.com/storecontent/newstex/KRTB-0160-11557568

and again
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/business/15832586.htm

I work in that area and even though I play poker and know that all poker players are not gamblers, I would not look upon it favourably if I saw it in a CV. If on the other hand you were asked in an interview how you handled a situation previously you may be able to use a poker situation.

In any event you would need to scope out the people interviewing you and determine whether or not it is appropriate to bring up any poker analogies.

It is also worth noting that most degenerate gamblers look down upon other gamblers (same goes for alcoholics and drug takers) as they are in denial. So even if you find out that the person interviewing you is a poker player, or you have seen them accross the table before, it still might be best not to mention it as you don't know how successful they have or have not been.

sikes

Linford wrote:

I work in that area and even though I play poker and know that all poker players are not gamblers, I would not look upon it favourably if I saw it in a CV. If on the other hand you were asked in an interview how you handled a situation previously you may be able to use a poker situation.

In any event you would need to scope out the people interviewing you and determine whether or not it is appropriate to bring up any poker analogies.

It is also worth noting that most degenerate gamblers look down upon other gamblers (same goes for alcoholics and drug takers) as they are in denial. So even if you find out that the person interviewing you is a poker player, or you have seen them accross the table before, it still might be best not to mention it as you don't know how successful they have or have not been.

cheers for the post. I should have started a poll!! Anyway, I am leaning towards leaving it out of the CV and will guage the situation in a interview.

Thanks for all the replies.

ollyk1

sikes wrote:

cheers for the post. I should have started a poll!! Anyway, I am leaning towards leaving it out of the CV and will guage the situation in a interview.

Thanks for all the replies.

FFS stick it in on one or two in a small way and see if it makes any difference! Hard enough to get the sort of jobs you are looking for anyway so take a chance that it might get you an interview.

By the way what is it with students being organised and looking for jobs at the start of their final year. Does nobody cram for finals, realise their stoney broke and go in desperate search of a job anymore??? Nobody????

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

imeatingchips

what a coincidence! I'm a senior programmer and was just at an interview yesterday. I had "music, reading, playing guitar, poker, jogging" down as the hobbies.

I would have thought that a technical chap like the one that was interviewing me would have appreciated the maths and intelligence required for the game but no...

I got a big frown and "poker??" as if I'd just admitted to being an alcoholic. I game him a quick example of +EV and he kind of got it (I think) but said to me "I wouldn't put that down. To me, and probably most people who wouldn't know much about it, it just brings to mind late nights and gambling. you know."

Don't think it was necesarily a deal-breaker but it's taken off the cv now anyway.

I suppose another thing to remember is, your cv might have to get through a HR before it gets to anyone technical. There's a lot of women in HR and not a lot of women in poker so they mightn't appreciate it.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

HiCloy

sikes wrote:

cheers for the post. I should have started a poll!! Anyway, I am leaning towards leaving it out of the CV and will guage the situation in a interview.

Thanks for all the replies.

On this, last year I did an interview for a London Investment bank as a fixed income trader, and mentioned Poker somewhere on the large, sprawling application form (these places don't just take CVs).

I had 4 interviews the first day, one with HR, 1 with a Sales person and 2 with traders. No one mentioned it except one trader, who said he played himself and enquired would I be on for a heads up match. Unfortunately neither of us had cards! I don't think it impacted negatively, as I had included so much else on the form.

In the end I got to a second interview, where I lost a huge pile of money on a trading simulator :rolleyes: and that was the end of that.

sikes

i am going to throw it in a few and not in others and see what happens! Cheers for the replies.

If you're a world class player who's won $x million in the last few years and is looking for a change of pace/thinks he could do even better in trading, then yes by all means mention this. For everyone else, don't bother.

I wasnt trying to draw comparisons to strassa!

Bandana boy

If explain it as a weekly home game to keep in touch with your mates I think fine
If it comes across as a alternative source of income i think it will generate a negative response from the majority of interviewers.
At no point try to explain +ev and risk as this sounds like an addict explaining why he is not addicted to those not in the know

kincsem

I haven't had to put out a CV for years. But I am retiring in a few weeks, and may need to take on some menial tasks to eke out my pension. I quite fancy pushing supermarket trolleys.

Even worse than putting poker on a CV is being a successful punter / or having a few wins. In 2002/2003 I had a number of wins totalling €10,600 on soccer and horses. This got back to my boss. Previously he had commented that his father had lost money gambling. The company view is that you are playing poker all night, every night, then coming into work too tired to work.

Strangely people like to hear about losses. Wins irk them.

I was interviewing people for a temporary job (filling in for a woman on maternity leave). The guy who was interviewing with me wanted to employ a girl because she had listed boxing as a hobby (she was a boxer). I had to push hard to get the best candidate.

BigDragon

HiCloy wrote:

In the end I got to a second interview, where I lost a huge pile of money on a trading simulator :rolleyes: and that was the end of that.

Trading simulators are rigged!

GL with the job hunt Sikes. Me, I'd leave it out.

nicnicnic

On a side note if anyone is going for a job in retail and in the past had knocked out a bit of weed ect, I would advise against putting this on the CV also