Poker in the CV

ollyk1

kincsem wrote:

I haven't had to put out a CV for years. But I am retiring in a few weeks, and may need to take on some menial tasks to eke out my pension. I quite fancy pushing supermarket trolleys.
[/SIZE]

Take up poker dealing or running tournies!! Be self employed.

Ace2007

Hey lads, sorry for bringing this up - but kinda stuck for hobbies in my CV.... some ppl are telling me to stick down poker but from reading the above - would this put a potential employer off? - My CV is for an intra job(i'm doin actuarial maths)... i figure if i put down that i play poker i can also say that i read books(poker), but if i leave it out - i gotta leave out reading as well... so, a few lads i know from previous years said they didn't put it on their intra CV but a few put it on other CV's, also i was thinking of getting around it by just saying i play cards and then expanding on it in the interview if they asked....

Mellor

list it as strategy games, thinking games as this would be connected to maths,
and quickly take up chess and risk

Ace2007

i can play chess..

ditpoker

i've always decided to leave it on... i like poker... i play poker... if they dont want me cos i play poker, then i dont wanna work for them kinda attitude. that and if you're applying for a job in a poker company it makes sense!

58o

Leave it off...end of.....not even close. Its easy to forget when you frequent a site like this everyday and play poker regularly just what the perception of the average person is of the most poker players. Its a lot closer to the hysterical "gambling degenerate" image you frequently encounter on liveline etc. than anything else. For the vast majority of employers, exluding obvious niches (like poker companies!), poker is a big black tick mark against you.

On a slightly related note, i haveoften wondered if a significant flow of money in and out of your bank account/ visa, coming/going to Poker sites gets flagged in anyway by banks and credit card companies. Is it something they may use aginst you in the future re. obtaining a mortgage or other loans? (regardless of whether you win lose)

therealzuppy

Leave it off. It's simple. Based on your CV, people decide whether or not to give you an interview. The majority of people, lawyers, plasterers, bankers, frown upon poker, therefore potentially your CV and no interview. I wouldn't want to risk mentioning in the interview either. Your hobbies don't get you jobs. Your qualifications, experience and personality do.

HiCloy

Ace2007 wrote:

Hey lads, sorry for bringing this up - but kinda stuck for hobbies in my CV.... some ppl are telling me to stick down poker but from reading the above - would this put a potential employer off? - My CV is for an intra job(i'm doin actuarial maths)... i figure if i put down that i play poker i can also say that i read books(poker), but if i leave it out - i gotta leave out reading as well... so, a few lads i know from previous years said they didn't put it on their intra CV but a few put it on other CV's, also i was thinking of getting around it by just saying i play cards and then expanding on it in the interview if they asked....

Actuarial companies(Life assurance, pensions, general insurance, consultancies etc) aren't exactly gonna love a gambler, which is how they will perceive it. Leave it off, put in chess instead.

El Stuntman

if I'm interviewing you Sikes, you'll get the job...but I would say definitely don't put it directly on your cv - go with your read at the interview and if you get into discussions of investment theory/trading strategy etc, you could bring it up 'as an example' of your logical approach.

I've interviewed lots of prospective traders (across all asset classes/market segments) - usually as part of a panel - poker would generally not be looked upon favourably as a hobby/interest. Don't do it.

El Stuntman

58o wrote:

On a slightly related note, i haveoften wondered if a significant flow of money in and out of your bank account/ visa, coming/going to Poker sites gets flagged in anyway by banks and credit card companies. Is it something they may use aginst you in the future re. obtaining a mortgage or other loans? (regardless of whether you win lose)

no, this would be illegal

Bandara

Don't do it

I'm an employer and if anyone lists or speaks about anything gambling wise on their cv or in the interview they are binned no matter how fantastic their experience is.

In actual fact I know the majority of senior people in cash intensive businesses will actually try to sneakily sound out new staff who have responsibility for cash etc to try determine if they have a gambling/high spending lifestyle.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Ace2007

Hammertime wrote:

In actual fact I know the majority of senior people in cash intensive businesses will actually try to sneakily sound out new staff who have responsibility for cash etc to try determine if they have a gambling/high spending lifestyle.

Yea if you don't mention the fact that you play poker and they find out - what will happen?

Also i would probably would never have thought about putting poker down on my CV, had it not being for a Company called Susquehanna International Group(SIG) - you may remember that they ran a poker tournament(recuitment drive) there a few months back in the fitz, also they had an "Open Day" thing for student there last year, which i wasn't able to go to but i was told that ppl within the company usually play poker everyday.

Here are a few links that explain why companies look for ppl who play poker:

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=SPIEDU.story&STORY=/www/story/10-19-2006/0004455434&EDATE=THU+Oct+19+2006,+01:49+PM


http://www.knowhr.com/blog/2006/10/24/new-recruiting-tool-poker-tournaments/

RedJoker

I'm going to be applying for an internship this year and very likely a job next year as a trader. This company I'm applying to, Susquehanna, is very big into poker, two of the head guys there wrote Mathematics of Poker. I'll be listing as much as I can about the game, books I've read, forums I read/post on and my SN, running UCC poker society, etc., etc.

Any other industry and I probably wouldn't include it but for the finance world it's definitely looked upon as a positive. There are loads of aspects of poker which carry across into trading.

Ace2007

you seem to think the same way as me, but like above posters said - if they see that one plays poker - its binned automatically - thats not good....

maximusdecimus

On a slightly related note, i haveoften wondered if a significant flow of money in and out of your bank account/ visa, coming/going to Poker sites gets flagged in anyway by banks and credit card companies. Is it something they may use aginst you in the future re. obtaining a mortgage or other loans? (regardless of whether you win lose)[/QUOTE]

I was refused a student loan last summer, i had previously gotten a student loan off this bank the year before and paid it off. the original reason i got was that i had missed 1 payment during the year and was 3 or 4 days late in paying off the loan in full at the end of the year.

WTF i thought im a student who missed 1 payment,bit harsh i thought so i rang up the bank and the manager asked me would i come in and have a chat with her. no problem i said an within the hour i was sitting at her desk.

At this point i should mention that i was using my laser card to deposit and withdraw money from ppp on a regular basis. i started off in january 06 and we were now into may. I was just starting to play poker online and had no clue about bankroll management etc i was depositing 50 euros sometimes more sometimes less out of my wages not essentially to make money but i loved to play. if i was up a couple of hundred i would then cash out some of it and when the rest was gone i would deposit somemore. Over the 5 month period i had deposited 1500 euro and withdrawn around 2000 for in and around 500 profit which i checked with my bank statements.

Anyway after arguing with the manager that i didnt think it was fair that i should be refused the loan for missing a payment, she brought up my account history on the computer and in fairness it was littered with pp online transactions. She said there was too much laser activity on the account and asked me what pp online was knowing full well what it was but made me say it. i told her i was playing a bit of online poker and that i had taken out more than i had put in so to speak.

Basically she said it didnt matter and that it looked awfull and they could not give me the loan untill the account was "cleaned up" she told me to wait 6 months and not to use my laser card for this site on a regular basis again and there should be no more problems in the future. It was very embarresing and since then i have only deposited a couple of times on my credit card to play for a bit of fun and know play only a few live donkaments as i think their great craic. After being to vegas twice over the summer as i was in san diego for 3 months i got a real buzz playing live cash games and would like to improve and play more of them but i will wait until i put a roll together. Reading on this board will only help.

Also my friends mother is a bank manager and told me it is viewed very negatively regardless if your winning or losing. I was borrowing the money for a holiday they thought i was borrowing for poker i see their point i have learnt my lesson and moved on, they just dont understand the game:o

Anyway moral of the story banks hold frequent transaction history to poker sites against you so if any1 has fallen the same pattern please stop.

And to the original poster i would definatly leave it off the cv.

Glowingmind

Eeek!

Looks like that car loan might be more difficult to get than i thought.

Mr Murphy, you appear to have a large number of online purchases for GAMBLING sites, and very few refunds. I'm also a little concerned at these large cash deposits, are you a drug dealer? Or are you just an online poker donk who occasionally wins in live games

Ace2007

maximusdecimus wrote:

I was refused a student loan last summer, i had previously gotten a student loan off this bank the year before and paid it off. the original reason i got was that i had missed 1 payment during the year and was 3 or 4 days late in paying off the loan in full at the end of the year.

WTF i thought im a student who missed 1 payment,bit harsh i thought so i rang up the bank and the manager asked me would i come in and have a chat with her. no problem i said an within the hour i was sitting at her desk.

At this point i should mention that i was using my laser card to deposit and withdraw money from ppp on a regular basis. i started off in january 06 and we were now into may. I was just starting to play poker online and had no clue about bankroll management etc i was depositing 50 euros sometimes more sometimes less out of my wages not essentially to make money but i loved to play. if i was up a couple of hundred i would then cash out some of it and when the rest was gone i would deposit somemore. Over the 5 month period i had deposited 1500 euro and withdrawn around 2000 for in and around 500 profit which i checked with my bank statements.

Anyway after arguing with the manager that i didnt think it was fair that i should be refused the loan for missing a payment, she brought up my account history on the computer and in fairness it was littered with pp online transactions. She said there was too much laser activity on the account and asked me what pp online was knowing full well what it was but made me say it. i told her i was playing a bit of online poker and that i had taken out more than i had put in so to speak.

Basically she said it didnt matter and that it looked awfull and they could not give me the loan untill the account was "cleaned up" she told me to wait 6 months and not to use my laser card for this site on a regular basis again and there should be no more problems in the future. It was very embarresing and since then i have only deposited a couple of times on my credit card to play for a bit of fun and know play only a few live donkaments as i think their great craic. After being to vegas twice over the summer as i was in san diego for 3 months i got a real buzz playing live cash games and would like to improve and play more of them but i will wait until i put a roll together. Reading on this board will only help.

Also my friends mother is a bank manager and told me it is viewed very negatively regardless if your winning or losing. I was borrowing the money for a holiday they thought i was borrowing for poker i see their point i have learnt my lesson and moved on, they just dont understand the game:o

Anyway moral of the story banks hold frequent transaction history to poker sites against you so if any1 has fallen the same pattern please stop.

And to the original poster i would definatly leave it off the cv.

I know I am going slightly OT, but would it not be best to have 2 different bank account(i.e with 2 different banks), and just use one account for poker and the other for normal life(i.e wages, gettin loans etc)...

maximusdecimus

yeah i suppose it would have i never really thought about it at the time i ended up jus gettin into a pattern without really knowing what i was doing in terms of managing money, i have learned from my mistake and im much better now.
if i was to deposit in future il use moneybookers or something like that and focus alot better on bankroll management.

hopalong85

El Stuntman wrote:

no, this would be illegal

im not sure if its illegal,but it certainly happens. i personally know somebody who was refused a mortgage because of bank statements showing he was a regular cunstomer with an online gaming site.

Glowingmind

ollyk1 wrote:

FFS stick it in on one or two in a small way and see if it makes any difference! Hard enough to get the sort of jobs you are looking for anyway so take a chance that it might get you an interview.

By the way what is it with students being organised and looking for jobs at the start of their final year. Does nobody cram for finals, realise their stoney broke and go in desperate search of a job anymore??? Nobody????

That's how i ended up in my current job

5starpool

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Mods - I suggest this thread be stickied. There are some good posts in here. And I think it is important for users of the forum to constantly be reminded that most of the world doesn't think like they do.

If we stickied every thread you suggested there would be 3 pages of stickies to go through before you got to the unstickied threads.

sumoward

maximusdecimus wrote:

On a slightly related note, i haveoften wondered if a significant flow of money in and out of your bank account/ visa, coming/going to Poker sites gets flagged in anyway by banks and credit card companies. Is it something they may use aginst you in the future re. obtaining a mortgage or other loans? (regardless of whether you win lose)

I was refused a student loan last summer, i had previously gotten a student loan off this bank the year before and paid it off. the original reason i got was that i had missed 1 payment during the year and was 3 or 4 days late in paying off the loan in full at the end of the year.

WTF i thought im a student who missed 1 payment,bit harsh i thought so i rang up the bank and the manager asked me would i come in and have a chat with her. no problem i said an within the hour i was sitting at her desk.

At this point i should mention that i was using my laser card to deposit and withdraw money from ppp on a regular basis. i started off in january 06 and we were now into may. I was just starting to play poker online and had no clue about bankroll management etc i was depositing 50 euros sometimes more sometimes less out of my wages not essentially to make money but i loved to play. if i was up a couple of hundred i would then cash out some of it and when the rest was gone i would deposit somemore. Over the 5 month period i had deposited 1500 euro and withdrawn around 2000 for in and around 500 profit which i checked with my bank statements.

Anyway after arguing with the manager that i didnt think it was fair that i should be refused the loan for missing a payment, she brought up my account history on the computer and in fairness it was littered with pp online transactions. She said there was too much laser activity on the account and asked me what pp online was knowing full well what it was but made me say it. i told her i was playing a bit of online poker and that i had taken out more than i had put in so to speak.

Basically she said it didnt matter and that it looked awfull and they could not give me the loan untill the account was "cleaned up" she told me to wait 6 months and not to use my laser card for this site on a regular basis again and there should be no more problems in the future. It was very embarresing and since then i have only deposited a couple of times on my credit card to play for a bit of fun and know play only a few live donkaments as i think their great craic. After being to vegas twice over the summer as i was in san diego for 3 months i got a real buzz playing live cash games and would like to improve and play more of them but i will wait until i put a roll together. Reading on this board will only help.

Also my friends mother is a bank manager and told me it is viewed very negatively regardless if your winning or losing. I was borrowing the money for a holiday they thought i was borrowing for poker i see their point i have learnt my lesson and moved on, they just dont understand the game:o

Anyway moral of the story banks hold frequent transaction history to poker sites against you so if any1 has fallen the same pattern please stop.

And to the original poster i would definatly leave it off the cv.

Change bank

Glowingmind

sumoward wrote:

Change bank

Yup, if i ever have a conversation like that with my bank (AIB), it'll mostly close with the line "well it looks like Bank of Ireland will be getting themselves a new customer"

maximusdecimus

Already did i opened an ulster bank student acc shortly after and couldnt be happier, they are very helpful to students! i.e when funds were low in the states they increased my interest free overdraft very quickly and communication was excellent. so back to vegas i went

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Jbopping

I recently attended a meeting with two currency traders for a major financial institution(no names mentioned). I never even mentioned that i played poker and i was told that when it comes to trading,in this particular firm, they actually look for people who are willing to take risks and people who have been submerged and have experience in areas such as poker and gambling in general. This, im sure ,is common to most trading firms, as trading is essentially about taking calculated risks.

5starpool

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I'm not serious all the time you twat!!

However, I do believe this is a good un. And stickied is the wrong term obv. Added to the legendary threads is obv what I meant...

This I can do depite you hurting my feelings by calling me names

Shadowless

I'd leave it off tbh.

Unless your applying to SIG then it's far more likely it'll be frowned upon than not.

RoundTower

El Stuntman wrote:

no, this would be illegal

El Stuntman do you think that what allegedly happened to maximus is "illegal"? You have very little credibility in my eyes if you don't tell me it was and explain why.

The_Daddy_H

i'd definitly include poker on the CV. If you are going for a trading job the people interviewing you wont be the usual HR people, they'll be traders and quants with a deep understanding of probability theory (typically ex-physcists, mathematicians), they'll know the difference between poker and roulette. A huge percentage of traders are poker players. In fact susquhanna when hiring quants ran a poker tournament, the entry fee was your cv.

MrPillowTalk

I would very much recommend leaving it off your cv and not mentioning it in work either.

I play poker and if I was interviewing someone for a position with any responsibility whatsoever I would immediately black flag anyone with a heightened interest in poker. To be honest poker is a negative influence in most players lives, I think the vast majority of poker players shouldnt play at all and would class nearly all of them about one step above your average degenerate gambler. I know this is not the popular opinion on the forum and everyone constantly goes on about poker not being gambling, however in my experience there are very few players for whom it is not gambling, yes there is a skill element but even for the majority of posters on this forum poker is neg ev and essentially not much different than if they had an interest in the footie/nags and bet regularly on them.

For years I tried to keep my poker playing secret from the banks I do business with, I would expect that when they are sanctioning loan facilities for large sums of money they dont like the idea of giving the money to a gambler which is in reality what most people will think. It all came undone when at a meeting with a couple of my bankers where I was seeking finance for a pub and apartment development (ie asking for quite a decent chunk of change) whilst we were chit chatting before getting down to brass tacks one of the guys mentioned that they had seen me on the ept and had come accross my blog on further inspection. As it turned out he plays a bit himself but the read I got was that they were susing out my reaction and to see if I downplayed my involvement in poker, at that point I just came clean and said I was fairly heavily involved in poker. It didnt stop the finance being approved but the impression I got was that if I was new business they hadnt dealt with before that this would have been a major problem.

At the end of the day the upside to including it on your cv is small at best however the downside is probably going to be quite large. Poker players habits dont gel with most working environments you stay up late, your liable to need time off for festivals, you are more likely to get in financial difficulty, your more capable of dishonesty and most regular players have a level of intellectual arrogance that doesnt go down well with civilians.

BigCityBanker

good post on many levels Eoin.

The_Daddy_H

Working as a trader is not your typical finanace job, it involves effectivly playing poker for very large sums of other peoples money. You can probably be expected to be asked poker related questions in the interview if you have expressed an interest.

Demonstrating an aptitude for the game and the self discipline to be a long term winner are two of the key attributes any bank is looking for in a potential trader.

Obviously if you cant discuss poker without coming across as a compulsive degenerate then dont mention it.

Flipper

Great thread. I would definatly look upon it as a negative from an employers' perspective. Leave it out.

HiCloy

The_Daddy_H wrote:

Obviously if you cant discuss poker without coming across as a compulsive degenerate then dont mention it.

.

If you can't support it with statistic and logical thinking etc leave it out even for a suitable job. I'd say the sort of questions you could be asked in a trading interview about poker
- whats the probability of you hitting a set with a pair pf, and explain how you worked it out and other prob qs
- what's your expectancy per hour
- how could you apply the skills from it to a trading role

califano

kincsem wrote:

I am retiring in a few weeks, and may need to take on some menial tasks to eke out my pension. I quite fancy pushing supermarket trolleys.

No such thing as menial tasks just menial attitudes;)

I would advise to leave it out.

'Poker is seen as a huge plus in trading houses'.

If im an interviewer in a trading house and somebody has poker in their cv im going to suspect that he's heard the above line, is playing on it and bin his sneaky cv.

strewelpeter

I've been conducting a lot of technical interviews for software development positions and as it happens poker has come up a couple of times in these but it hasn't been of any great significance.
There is one point I'd make in the context of interviews with graduates applying for technical positions.
One of the most useful parts of graduate interviews is the subject of the project work done during college. That's where I'm looking for people to show me that they are really interested and enthusiastic. If you have done project work relating to poker, as a lot of poker playing IT students do, then you are going to have to talk about it. In General I'd say if you are good at communicating your geekiness and passion then it really won't matter whether its poker or pottery as long you are coming across as someone who knows what they are talking about and is genuinely interested in the type of work at hand.
I'd be very surprised if the same does not apply to the kind of trading and actuarial jobs we are talking about here.

On balance I don't think there is any need to have it explicitly on your CV but do be prepared to communicate to both a knowledgeable and an ignorant audience if needed.

CV's for experienced people in these kind of jobs don't include hobbies and pastimes and this kind of thing just doesn't come up... no one would care less what you do in your spare time as long as you are good at the job at hand.

Ace2007

strewelpeter wrote:

CV's for experienced people in these kind of jobs don't include hobbies and pastimes and this kind of thing just doesn't come up... no one would care less what you do in your spare time as long as you are good at the job at hand.

I know this - but its a college CV which is in a specific formate and one of them asks to state your hobbies.

Still not a 100% wheater to add it in or not, but i emailed the ppl in charge of the CV's and 2 of them emailed me back saying that they don't see any disadvantage of leaving it out...

therealzuppy

The_Daddy_H wrote:

i'd definitly include poker on the CV. If you are going for a trading job the people interviewing you wont be the usual HR people, they'll be traders and quants with a deep understanding of probability theory (typically ex-physcists, mathematicians), they'll know the difference between poker and roulette. A huge percentage of traders are poker players. In fact susquhanna when hiring quants ran a poker tournament, the entry fee was your cv.

I've worked in a dealing room. Saying that a huge percentage of traders are poker players is very questionable and also does it really matter? If 80% are poker players, most of them are still probably rubbish, don't take it seriously or even try to think about it on a higher level like most people on this forum. They just play casually, for fun or with their mates just like most other "poker players". There's a big difference to most players and the people on here. Generally, most poker players are just gamblers whether they work in Finance or whatever.

Listen to Pillowtalk and leave it off the cv. Putting it on there just on the off chance you might have someone with a boards type mentality interviewing you (if you even get an interview) would be bloody risky and pretty dumb.

El Stuntman

RoundTower wrote:

El Stuntman do you think that what allegedly happened to maximus is "illegal"? You have very little credibility in my eyes if you don't tell me it was and explain why.

wow, my credibility is at risk :eek:. Better answer so...

my original comment was about using CC transactional history to form some or all of the basis of a credit rating. If you look at the website of the Irish Credit Bureau, you'll see that allowable (for forming a credit rating) credit card information is opening balance/closing balance, card cancellations/revokations, average balance etc.

In short, what you spend your money on is your business - as long as you repay the c.c. issuer within the T&C that your card was issued under. So if you are a compulsive shoe shopper/alcoholic/purchaser of lapdances/poker player (there goes half the population) - none of this really matters as long as you repay. So the moral of the story is always repay your loans in full, on time.


Maximus posted his story after my comment and tbh, I don't know if the bank official's conduct was technically illegal here. If I (with an unblemished credit history) went into my local AIB and asked for 5k for a personal loan and the bank manager said 'no way Jose', started waving around my credit card statement and pointing to GJP deposits with an accusing finger, I would close my account immediately and make a formal complaint to the financial ombudsman. I'd also call the data commissioner to see if my personal sensitive data had been used illegally. I would also make a complaint to the bank itself.

I don't know Maximus's credit history so wouldn't like to comment on his personal credit circumstances.

Ace2007

Right in the end i decided to leave it out of my CV alltogether...

Goodluck2me

El Stuntman wrote:

wow, my credibility is at risk :eek:. Better answer so...
....
I don't know Maximus's credit history so wouldn't like to comment on his personal credit circumstances.

well Dave?????

RoundTower

I think that was a good answer

Goodluck2me

RoundTower wrote:

I think that was a good answer

Mods sticky this please.

ghost-snot

ar ya mad!

Hitman Actual

RoundTower wrote:

I think that was a good answer

goodluck2me wrote:

Mods sticky this please.

lol, seconded.

Hectorjelly

so how do I explain the last few years if the worst comes to the worst and online poker gets killed by superbots in two years times!

BigCityBanker

Hectorjelly wrote:

so how do I explain the last few years if the worst comes to the worst and online poker gets killed by superbots in two years times!

tell them you were doing an extended stint of charity work in some poor country.

Hectorjelly

It would be very funny to have that on my cv, dont mention which country; just leave it at "some poor country"