Vegetarians turning Vegan.

Tar.Aldarion

Hello, hello.
I'm just curious as to a trend I have been noticing.
When somebody I know is a vegetarian for a long time, they go down the vegan route.
At the moment even, two of my good friends, my sister and my gf are turning vegan. They wouldn't even really know each other.

I suppose I am asking do you see this trend, or is it odd?
Do you plan to eventually turn vegan if you are a vegetarian now, as in, do people just build up to it etc?
Or, in general, if you become vegetarian and not vegan, it is for a particular reason and you won't change?

Nature Boy

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

and my gf

hmmm. Are you purposly trying to confuse people as to your sex??! You mentioned in another thread something about a future husband!

Anyways, I don't know many veggies (about 4 or so) and none of them seem to have any intentions on going vegan. My gf tried it once and felt sick so gave up.

I've been a veggie for about a year and considered it loads of times. I could easily go vegan when at home (and do most of the time) but when i'm eating out (outside Dublin) or at home home (down the country) i find it hard to stick to.

I find myself making traditional meals vegan just to prove to myself we don't need animal foods.

Maybe sometime i will go completely vegan. i know i'd like to...

Tar.Aldarion

Nature Boy wrote:

hmmm. Are you purposly trying to confuse people as to your sex??! You mentioned in another thread something about a future husband!

Ah, I usually do mess around to confuse people. I'm a 20 year old male, and I have stolen a poster from this here vegetarian forum as my own. :P
The messing around with my sex thing comes from everybody thinking I am a girl, a lesbian girl.

Anyways, I don't know many veggies (about 4 or so) and none of them seem to have any intentions on going vegan. My gf tried it once and felt sick so gave up.

I've been a veggie for about a year and considered it loads of times. I could easily go vegan when at home (and do most of the time) but when i'm eating out (outside Dublin) or at home home (down the country) i find it hard to stick to.

I am finding that it is people that have been vegetarians for a much longer time than us who are going vegan. I suppose it could be seen as somthing to be built up to, as it is quite hard at the start just being vegetarian even.
That's what I was wondering about, is it that or do people that end up vegans in general start off as vegans, not vegetarians.

I find myself making traditional meals vegan just to prove to myself we don't need animal foods.

Maybe sometime i will go completely vegan. i know i'd like to...

Yes, I hope to maybe build to it after many more years, I'm certainly drinking more oat/rice/soya milk now as it is.
If I do it now though, I may die of starvation, just like I nearly did when I turned vegetarian.

Blub2k4

If I may, as someone who has contemplated vegetarianism and is very open to it all, I think that veganism is the logical conclusion of the exploitation argument.
People are vegetarian for different reasons but I'd imagine with time logically you could finish what you started and not just stop eating animals but also stop exploiting them, where you started with an ethical vegetarianism.

just my 2c

Tar.Aldarion

First off, congratulations new Food & Drink mod.


Ethical vegetarianism leads to an end result in veganism in my mind too. I am just wondering do most people 'progress' from vegetarian to vegan or do vegans tend to have been vegan right from the start. maybe it is just a fairly even mix of both.
With regards to vegetarians turning vegan over a number of years being a trend, maybe they are wiser than me.
One day I ate more meat than anybody I knew, a split second later I was vegetarian. Doing something too fast like I did was not so wise, which is maybe why I think that vegetarians turn vegan after a good few years, things certainly become easier as time goes on. Vegetarianism is perhaps just a stepping stone for some people and I am asking is that the case I suppose.

On the other hand, maybe it is not a logical progression to some people, where they think that killing an animal is wrong but causing it some inconvenience as long as it is well cared for is ok?

Oobie

I've been vegetarian for most of my life and a few times I've considered going Vegan. I cook a lot of Vegan meals at home (not on purpose, it just works out that way). The reason I've decided not to become Vegan is that it would limit my choices when it comes to eating in restuarants and I love that too much to give it up!

I'm a veggie 16 years.
I don't see myself ever becoming vegan while in Ireland.
Cattle are generally very well treated by farmers in Ireland, If I lived someplace where they housed their animals year long I would reconsider.
I don't have a problem with exploiting animals by using their produce if they don't suffer because of it.

nando

Interesting thread!

I've been vegetarian for the last 11 years and I don't think I'll ever become vegan. I have similar views to Moonbaby - I'm generally ok with using animal products. I have great respect for vegans though - fair play for following their beliefs - can't be easy in Ireland!

I have a friend who was vegetarian when I met her. At the time her reasons were mostly based on how the animal lived its life rather than it being killed in the end. Later she learned more about animal welfare/husbandry in Ireland and decided she was happy enough with the situation so to eat meat again but not pig meat or poultry. Then she read some book and became vegan. I think she's vegan for life now!

feelthegrease

i dont think i could ever go vegan, my love of cheese and milk is to strong. since ive gone vegetarian nearly every meal i cook has cheese somewhere in it. but i would prefer to use organic milks and cheeses.

the majority of my friends are vegetarians, and i can only think of one or two vegans. a few friends have attempted to go vegan but couldnt last longer then a few months because their health was deteriorating. my girlfriend tried to go vegan but realised she wasnt quite prepared, and is trying to ease herself into it.

those of saying farm animals are treated fairly in ireland, are you sure? a friend has been trying to look into the conditions of dairy cows in ireland, after finding out how horrendously they treat them in america, and is having trouble finding any information.

nando

I'm fairly certain the vast majority of dairy cows in Ireland are as well treated as can be expected. They spend spring/summer etc. out in the fields, they're housed in winter, milked twice daily, have a calf a year. Most dairy farmers know still know their cows individually. It's not like america here, not yet anyway.

I've seen plenty and I'm happy with the situation in general anyway. It's a personal choice though, I suppose it depends on how well you expect the animals to be treated. On the other hand I would be totally not happy with treatment of pigs and non organic poultry in Ireland.

flikflak

I have been a vegetarian for about 17 years now and have within the last year or so been leaning towards Veganism.

A lot of people here are saying its ok because here in Ireland the dairy cows are well looked after and while that may be a valid point the main thing is that we are the only species that drinks the milk of another mammal. It is against nature to drink something that is intended for the young of another species. Milk is only intended for infants. It is a weird unnatural thing.

Would you put human milk in your tea? Before you say "eeerrruugghhh no way" just stop and think.

We have been so brainwashed into thinking that drinking other mammals milk is natural. It is not.

Nature Boy

A few people have mentioned that dairy cows are treated "well" in Ireland, or as well as can be expected. What about if you buy Quorn products or realeat or whatever? They wont necessarily contain Irish dairy/eggs. Do people avoid these products for these reasons?

nando

Yes I would avoid non organic eggs if possible and definitely milk from certain countries. Quorn is largely made in England. Few of their basic products contain milk and they list free range eggs as ingredients - not quite organic but it's something. I would definitely like to avoid American milk because of their farming practices and use of certain hormones such as BST. I suppose it's again all down to personal choice - what your own beliefs are on the ethics and acceptable standards of it all.

The same goes for whether consuming milk and eggs is natural or not. It's a personal choice. I personally feel that eggs are fine - other animals consume eggs. My major concern would be the welfare of the poultry. As for milk - other animals may not consume milk but they don't cook food either, or have caesarian sections instead of natural labour or wear clothes. It's everyone's own choice how closely they wish to follow to nature. Just an aside - don't ants herd and "milk" other insects too?

Nature Boy

nando wrote:

and they list free range eggs as ingredients - not quite organic but it's something.

I'm all for organic food but do organic eggs mean that the animal is treated better? Or is it for health/environment reasons?

Peanut

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

..I suppose I am asking do you see this trend, or is it odd?

Don't particularly notice it, however if anything it could be with younger people who turn veggie for the ethical argument, then decide its not radical enough for them (I don't mean this in a bad way, it's just an observation).

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Do you plan to eventually turn vegan if you are a vegetarian now, as in, do people just build up to it etc?

Very much depends on the person I guess, personally speaking, no.

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Or, in general, if you become vegetarian and not vegan, it is for a particular reason and you won't change?

Yeah...

re: other posters about particular things being "against nature", that's really not an argument as practically any manmade activity could be interpreted as "against nature" somehow, the term is so nebulous as to be meaningless.

Nature Boy

Well I guess if you're talking about diet and being healthy (as apposed driving or using a computer) you should follow as natural a diet as possible.

hamsterboy

I was a veggie for over 10 years before I became vegan and like a previous poster said, I did see vegetarianism as a sort of stepping stone to veganism. You kinda start thinking "Well how can I justify eating this cheese when I know an animal has suffered and the milk used to make it was intended for it's young, not me......etc".
I have noticed an increase in the numbers of veggies going that extra step alright.

Could be common sense prevailing I guess.............

Peanut

Nature Boy wrote:

Well I guess if you're talking about diet and being healthy (as apposed driving or using a computer) you should follow as natural a diet as possible.

er I guess we are back to the raw food argument..
Ok sorry but I am going to keep my coffee/tea/chocolate etc.!!

Mentalmiss

Peanut wrote:

er I guess we are back to the raw food argument..
Ok sorry but I am going to keep my coffee/tea/chocolate etc.!!

Us raw foodies do avoid coffee and some even stay away from tea but we eat lots of chocolate

Tar.Aldarion

flikflak wrote:

I have been a vegetarian for about 17 years now and have within the last year or so been leaning towards Veganism.

A lot of people here are saying its ok because here in Ireland the dairy cows are well looked after and while that may be a valid point the main thing is that we are the only species that drinks the milk of another mammal. It is against nature to drink something that is intended for the young of another species. Milk is only intended for infants. It is a weird unnatural thing.

Would you put human milk in your tea? Before you say "eeerrruugghhh no way" just stop and think.

We have been so brainwashed into thinking that drinking other mammals milk is natural. It is not.

I suppose I can just say 'so?' to that.
What makes something natural? If we do it long enough is it natural? If only one species does something, can that not be natural?
Humans were originally fruitarians(albeit fruits were different back then) way back when, why not be that? (:
What if we go back further in evolution? Should we ate what they ate?
Why should we do what is 'natural' anyway?
Just some questions, not saing anything about what I think!

Peanut wrote:

Don't particularly notice it, however if anything it could be with younger people who turn veggie for the ethical argument, then decide its not radical enough for them (I don't mean this in a bad way, it's just an observation).

I suppose this is just us observing different things from our respective lives. I only know one person who became vegan young, not the sort of person to be doing it because it is 'radical'. The rest are older than me. I guess who you know and where you are from it is different etc.


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Tar

Catsmokinpot

ive been vegetarian for the last 5 months, i dont think i will be a vegan even though the reason for me becoming vegetarian was for ethical reasons, it wasn't because i dont believe in eating meat, its just farming methods i disagree with.

i would eat sea fish every now and again only because i believe that they are free to do whatever they want for the duration of their lives, and they are unlucky if they get caught.

i think if i went vegan i would be cutting out all taste out of my diet. i miss meat enough without missing cheese and honey aswell.

if i worried about the plight of every one of gods creatures, I'd drive myself crazy.

flikflak

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

I suppose I can just say 'so?' to that.
What makes something natural? If we do it long enough is it natural? If only one species does something, can that not be natural?
Humans were originally fruitarians(albeit fruits were different back then) way back when, why not be that? (:
What if we go back further in evolution? Should we ate what they ate?
Why should we do what is 'natural' anyway?
Just some questions, not saing anything about what I think!


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Tar

You can indeed say "so" to that. Thats what is so great about being an individual able to make your own informed choices.

I think that milk is weird and dont use it and everyone else is free to make up their own mind.

If we go back in evolution then humans ate the bone marrow of the animals they killed which strengthened their own bones. They had no need for dairy products to do it. If you asked someone to eat the bone marrow of another animal most of them would turn their noses up.

Tar.Aldarion

flikflak wrote:

You can indeed say "so" to that. Thats what is so great about being an individual able to make your own informed choices.

I think that milk is weird and dont use it and everyone else is free to make up their own mind.

If we go back in evolution then humans ate the bone marrow of the animals they killed which strengthened their own bones. They had no need for dairy products to do it. If you asked someone to eat the bone marrow of another animal most of them would turn their noses up.

I suppose our opinions just differ on whether being 'natural' matters.
Because we ate bone marrow back then, to me, doesn't mean we should eat it now.
I don't really see how something is natural and something is not, and why we should follow something if it was thought to be natural.

Nature Boy

Catsmokinpot wrote:

ive been vegetarian for the last 5 months
...
i would eat sea fish every now and again

I'm not being bitchy but...

If you eat fish (even if it's only every so often) then you're not a vegetarian

Anyway getting back to the topic...

I guess as we change, then what's 'natural' changes too. When it comes to food, what's natural should be what's healthy to eat, and dairy isn't healthy.

Mentalmiss

Our eating habits have been corrupted by our other needs. If we want to see what is natural we should look at what is eaten by our nearest relatives in the animal kingdom.
Chimps eat mostly fruit and greens. That is what is natural.
I can not imagine that primitive man ever walked up to a cow and sucked the milk from it.

Tar.Aldarion

Every race has different habits, you can't look at one that is similar(and they are not even that close to us) and say what they do is natural for us to.
Natural is a namby-pamby term that doesn't really exist, you can't really define it.

Peanut

Mentalmiss wrote:

Us raw foodies do avoid coffee and some even stay away from tea but we eat lots of chocolate

Hmmm is that not slighty going against the raw food idea then...?

Blub2k4

Mentalmiss wrote:

Our eating habits have been corrupted by our other needs. If we want to see what is natural we should look at what is eaten by our nearest relatives in the animal kingdom.
Chimps eat mostly fruit and greens. That is what is natural.
I can not imagine that primitive man ever walked up to a cow and sucked the milk from it.

Chimps don't have the reasoning and logical ability that we have. The difference is that we have a whole frontal lobe in our brains that the chimp doesn't have and that's what makes us human.
There are packs of chimps that catch and kill other monkeys for food when the oppurtunity arises, there are also chimps that have a society based totally on interchimp sex and their whole social hierarchy revolves around sex.

Not to burst your bubble or anything, I respect your choice, but your argument is wrong, or at the least oversimplistic

Tar.Aldarion

Blub2k4 wrote:

There are packs of chimps that catch and kill other monkeys for food when the oppurtunity arises, there are also chimps that have a society based totally on interchimp sex and their whole social hierarchy revolves around sex.

I think they have the superior hierarchal society!

Floyd Soul

I went vegan after six months of vegetarianism. It was mostly down to an overdependency on cheese after giving up meat, and being turned off of eating dairy altogether.

I think just about anyone can survive vegetarianism, but for veganism your gonna have to start eating a very broad range of foods just to stay healthy.

ClareBear

I tried going Vegan. Lasted a week. Soya milk made me sick in the end.

bonzo82

Catsmokinpot wrote:

if i worried about the plight of every one of gods creatures, I'd drive myself crazy.

I really thought that before I went vegan too, but actually I barely think about it, it's more like just letting yourself think about it for a short while, and I mean thinking about it properly, all the issues, so you can decide what you think is reasonable. Then it's just a matter of rejecting whatever foods you've decided are just not cool anymore. Then it just comes as second nature--quite quickly I found.

Tar.Aldarion

ClareBear wrote:

I tried going Vegan. Lasted a week. Soya milk made me sick in the end.

Try rice milk and oat milk.