Can United really topple Chelsea? And if not....

Jivin Turkey

At present, Manchester United sit atop the Premiership, and deservedly so it must be said.

For all the doubters at the beginning of the year, their results have spoken for themselves. One could argue that they have not had the toughest of fixtures so far, but they’ve beaten Liverpool, Tottenham and Bolton without too much bother, all of whom are teams whom would have been tipped for top six finishes at the beginning of the year.

So my question is, does this United side have what it takes to challenge Chelsea to the wire?

Against Bolton at the weekend they were outstanding. Great to watch, and as convincing a win as anyone will get at the Reebok, I’m sure, this year.

Players like Vidic and Evra, who looked completely out of place last year, excelled. The more I see of Vidic the more I like him as a player. Evra looks great going forward too, and where he lacks in some defensive ability he can make that up with his pace. Last night saw the return of Gabriel Heinze, which will be like a new signing this year. He was arguably United’s outstanding player in his first year there, and I’m sure is incredibly eager to get back playing week-in-week-out.

However, my concerns if I were a United fan would not be in defence. They are quite solid in every position across the back five. It would be further up the pitch.

Across the middle of the park they really lack depth, particularly when it comes to crafty players IMO. The absence of Giggs last night really showed I thought. He has been fantastic for them in recent months. He consistently delivers for United. Scholes as well, who has been on and off for them until recently, was also missed. But the thing is how much can the team depend on two players who will be 33 and 32 respectively in the next couple of weeks. In particular Giggs, whose career has been effected throughout by troublesome hamstrings anyway? Can these players be expected to notch up 60 games over the course of the year? Park was brought in to add a bit of spice to the equation, but he is also out with long term injury. That leaves it all to Ronaldo, who despite some United fans protestations that he is the best young player in the world, still remains frightfully unpredictable and inconsistent.

Carrick is a good player, and will get better as he continues to settle in to the side, but is he really of the quality of the likes of Scholes and Giggs were when they were that age or even still now? Not a hope. He is not a midfielder that is going to win you the big matches IMO.

The rest of the midfield is pretty bland. O’Shea, Fletcher and Richardson could all do a job, but as with Carrick are they really “United quality”?

It only struck me last night, with the injury to Solksjaer, that United are also now pretty lightweight up front in comparison to last year, as they are short Rossi and RVN. Solksjaer was doing better than anyone thought he would I’m sure after a return from such horrific injury problems, but his absence now only leaves Saha, Rooney, and Smith (also returning from a horrific injury). That really puts the weight, particularly for the next few weeks until Smith is fully fit, entirely on the shoulders of Saha and Rooney. Both of these are arguably as good as any pairing in the league, and both guaranteed to bag goals, but can the burden be shouldered by both of them on their own? Can Saha really fill RVN’s boots and notch the 25+ a year? What if one of them gets a knock and misses a few weeks?

This isn’t a knee-jerk to last nights result. United had a weakened team out. I think they will qualify no problem anyway, but that almost adds to my point. Come March time, when unlike last year United may still have CL games to contend with, is their squad of adequate depth that they can fill the
potential voids left by Saha/Scholes/Giggs like there was last night? What if Rooney is out?

I really don’t think they will be able to. Unless more quality is added in January, and not some unknowns who are tipped as the next big things, more genuine class. Hargreaves is still being tipped as a January arrival, but is he what they need? Is he that genuine class? Again I don’t think so. And for that price? Not a hope.

Compare him to the likes of Keane/Scholes/Beckham/Giggs when they were his age, he is not a patch on them, and add to this that Chelsea have raised the bar since that time.

So in summary, I think United are worthy leaders of the Premiership, and won't be a million miles behind come May. They have looked fantastic and deserved thoroughly most of the points they’ve got with some outstanding displays. But I think this team just won’t have what it takes to match the Chelsea juggernaut over the course of the season, which will leave a lot of United supporters disappointed.

If that is the case, it would be four years without a title for United, in any other league the manager would have been well on the way. Would supporters agree that if Ferguson again falls short of overhauling Chelsea, despite the difficult circumstances, it is then time for a new man to give it a shot?

bucks73

Been saying it for months...Fergie will be sorry he ever sold Ruud.

Apart from that IMO they will challenge for the title all the way to the end. For Chelsea to fall it is necessary for the other challengers to take points off them. Last season United were the only team in the top 5 to take any points off them. That has to improve if they are to be knocked off top spot.

Carcharodon

Yes, they can win the league, thats if they dont receive too many injuries during the season. Chelsea have not been over impressive this season and it should be a close run in, with Arsenal there as well come the end of the season.
I dont think the age of those United players is that big a deal, i believe that they have shown that they are still the best around and should be there again for another couple of years

NotWormBoy

You've pretty much hit it there. Its going to depend on how their injury list goes. I can't see United doing well enough to lead, or even stay with, Chelsea if a few of their first choice players get injured - except in defense. They can cope there. But in midfield, and less so up front, they don't have too much quality strength in depth.

Christmas could be interesting too, with Scholes and Giggs perhaps being forced to play so many games so quickly. Will they be able to cope?

bucks73

While speaking of injuries...an recent article in a paper described how Chelsea could be vunerable at the back. With Terry, Carvalho and Boulabas their only centre backs they could be caught out badly if one of the first two gets injured. Then if someone happened to miss a game or two through suspension they are in right trouble. Add that to the fact that Cudicini isnt the best on crosses and high balls and you could see them have a few shaky moments.

cournioni

Great post JT. I honestly don't know, I think the Chelsea game later on this month will give us a good indication of how United might fare for the rest of the year and it might indeed give them the psychological edge going into next year.

Having said that though, I believe that Chelsea certainly haven't hit top gear yet. If they do I think they will be very hard to stop. But the question is will they even make it to top gear, they aren't looking too impressive. Arsenal I think might just sneak in there too. They are in unbelievable form at the moment and if they keep it going they might just overtake United and Chelsea.

The emergance of form (which is only a matter of time) from the likes of Liverpool, Newcastle and other big clubs that are out of sorts at the moment. I think that Charlton and West Ham will definately come to form next year also so all of these team could shape the Premiership table at the end of the season.

As they say, titles aren't won in November. We still have alot of twists and turns to see before May, however United at the moment are my tips for the title. They are winning many of the games they should be winning, and if they keep everyone fit, especially Rooney, Giggs and Scholes, they should have as good of a chance as anybody.

Jivin Turkey

PORNAPSTER wrote:

I think the Chelsea game later on this month will give us a good indication of how United might fare for the rest of the year and it might indeed give them the psychological edge going into next year.

You see I'm not quite sure that this will give a good indication.

United could go and beat Chelsea, like they did last year, in a one off game. But come the "easier" games, away to Portsmouth or Boro for example, these are the games I think that this United might struggle later in the year.

There is no doubting that Ferguson can motivate any team to pull one out of the fire when the odds are stacked against them. But ultimately, I think in the long run, you can't expect to get the same level of performance out of players that are not up to scratch. Chelsea are the complete opposite to this. They can afford to drop points to United/Arsenal/Liverpool as invariably, they won't throw away many "easy points".

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

BaZmO*

I think the most imprtant thing is the fact that Utd. started so well this season. The problem in previous years is that they started badly only to turn it around too late. Not sure who'll win the title this year but I bet it'll be close.

AnCapaillMor

As with the champs league final, never write off united. The chelsea game will be a huge huge game. rooney finally seems to have gotten the finger out and i don't ronaldo has started to get going yet.

Arsenal are also worth a mention, with a bit of luck they'd have won all games so far. All the games that they drew or lost, they could've easilly won, thier finishing was woeful. I hope it comes down to how Chelsea, utd, arsenal do against each other. arsenal got their asses handed to them twice last year with chelsea and pretty much the same with united, its not just 6 points the physcological damage is worse.

I would've mentioned liverpool or spurs at the start of the season, who knows they might. alot is down to the lower teams as well, chelsea just brushed alot of them aside last year. They need to steal points off Chelsea.

MrJoeSoap

AnCapaillMor wrote:

As with the champs league final, never write off united.

If thats the case then surely Liverpool must be Premiership favourites

As for the issue at hand, I can see it being very very close between the two this season, and a lot might depend on factors such as injuries, how both clubs fare in Europe and of course how they do against each other, both later this month and in April. The Utd-Chelsea game at Stamford Bridge in April (five games from the end of the season) could be a cracker, I bet Sky are drooling already.

iregk

Well the problem of previous seasons is that United started slowly then caught up. Don't let last year fool you though. Chelsea had long since taken their foot off that gas which gave more of an impression of the great come back. It was never on in my opinion.

This year I can see United having a bad patch in which time Chelsea will storm off and United will be left with too much of a gap to make up. For me the title race is between two teams. Arsenal and Chelsea. I can see Arsenal push Chelsea all the way, they are finally getting it together now and could go on a great run all the way to the end. Gallas was a great signing. I do see United having a bad period and loosing touch and maybe trailing away at the end of the year. I don't think they have the squad dept to challenge for it.

sundula

Its possible they can win the league but they really lack depth. If your comparing them to Chelski going forward into the future then there is no comparison in my opinon. Chelski have the cash to buy the best and biggest names, they are attracting top signings and United having being. How many players over the next 12 to 18 months will Man U have to replace to continue to compete ? Even the Gunners are building for the future with a young squad and alot og highly rated loanee's scoring goals.
Without Giggs and Scholes they struggled badly last night and these two are well into there twilight years. They lack depth up front, if Saha gets a knock -which he is very prone to then they will be in trouble. I dont believe for one second Fergie thought at this stage of Ole's career and with his medical problems that he would still be able to walk into the team, but to his credit he is still scoring but his glory days are well gone. Thats 3 very important players well into their 30's that MAN U have to replace. The backs dont convince Vidic has never impressed me and he was poor last night. I like Heinze but i thought he was poor last night to, dont think Evra is any where near top class and neither are OShea, Fletcher, Richardson or Silvestre. The gap between the first choice Man U and the 2nd choice is huge. I personally dont think Carrick is going to improve one stride. You have what you paid for, and thats 18million of ordinary english midfielder and the dont like the potential signing of hargreaves either, he has never impressed me in any shappe or form.

sofireland

i agree man u's lack of depth will cause problems, but we have a 1st eleven more than capable of competing this year. The game at the end of this month is important, we can't lose another to one of the top four.

Yes Giggs Scholes and Ole are in their 30s, but they still do the job, smith back is like a new signing, and i hope he gets a few goals for us. No doubt the 1st choice strike force is Saha Rooney.

Carrick will come good imo, he's the type of player who will spray the ball around, break up play, and maybe get forward, but really he lets scholes control the tempo. Then on the flanks we have choice of Giggs/Ronaldo/Park/Fletcher/Richardson

Defense is pretty solid, Vidic and Evra have improved a lot, last night Vidic was playing with Silvestre, who lets face it wasn't the best partner.

One or two more siginings in teh window will be good,

As for Hargreaves, he's tenacious, hard tackler and worker, he'd fit right in at united in my opinion.

We could do with more cover up top, but we do also have rossi to come back

In conclusion, we can't compete with chelseas millions in the transfer market,but we can on the pitch.

Obni

First of all as a Bolton fan I have to admit we got well and truly spanked on Saturday.
However, as I see it, Utd are on 25 pts because their somewhat patchy squad is playing to just about their max level, whereas Chelsea are on 25 pts because their better squad aren't playing well but are just doing enough.
At the moment I reckon that if a second-tier team (Bolton, Villa, Everton, Portsmouth,...) really put it up to Chelsea they might get a result. Most teams seem to write-off a Utd or Chelsea tie before it happens. However, if Chelsea can weather this poor patch they'll surely finish the stronger team.

sundula

If you stand back and take the players out of the United squad who are really not Man U class, who if Man U had the money would not be at the club and then subtract the players who are approaching retirement then i think they require more than one or two signings, its a squad re-build.

Not a United Fan of Chelski fan - just wondering do Man U fans think Fergie is up to the job of putting together another team which COULD compete ? or should they give the cash and job to someone else ? like Jivin Turkey was asking.

jesus_thats_gre

I think United could take the league if they had more quality in the middle of the park. However, I still think they are missing genuine quality in there to make them a sure thing. Giggs and Scholes are proper players but the rest are not up to scratch IMO. I think United will need to buy a number of really big, polished players for their midfiled in coming years if they are to maintain their current position as the second best club in England. The likes or Giggs, Scholes and G. Neville are a rare breed and it will take big money or some quality youth players to replace them. Imagine the current United team without those 3 players.

kinaldo

Man Utd no. Arsenal.. maybe. It'll be interesting to see how far they progress in Europe which could be the deciding factor.

el rabitos

i think arsenal are better poised to challenge in terms of squad dept. they seem intent on pushing for the champions league pretty hard, but they look strong.

if united can maintain the fitness of their best team they could challenge, but take out giggs and scholes and your looking at a radically different, distinctly average team, appart from rooney. they've done what they needed to do (and what the others needed to do) after last season and hit the ground running, but i think they've been playing out of their skins so far, i dont see it lasting. i'd be shocked if they got beyond the quater finals of the champions league. fa cup or carling cup this season maybe.

liverpool would have to put together an incredible run and beat arsenal, united and chelsea in the return fixtures. its not impossible, but highy unlikely. still remains to be seen weather or not the team is balanced, but based on the shakey form so far, could be a trophyless season.

i reckon its chelseas to lose though, they have the hunger, the quality and the dept in their squad to challenge strongly on all fronts.

their only weekness is a bit of a lack of width, bit vulnerable down the right too.

evad_lhorg

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Great post JT. I honestly don't know, I think the Chelsea game later on this month will give us a good indication of how United might fare for the rest of the year and it might indeed give them the psychological edge going into next year.

Having said that though, I believe that Chelsea certainly haven't hit top gear yet. If they do I think they will be very hard to stop. But the question is will they even make it to top gear, they aren't looking too impressive. Arsenal I think might just sneak in there too. They are in unbelievable form at the moment and if they keep it going they might just overtake United and Chelsea.
.

Yea the Chelsea game(which im going to might I add:D ) will be huge but I think Arsenal are more dangerous. They are so quick when they get flowing. good job they cant hit the net:p

plonk

I really hope they can. They are playing really attractive football at the moment. But i would love to see arsenal do as they play the best footy in the world imo. United wont though because of 4 people Fletcher O Shea Quirez and Ferguson

smemon

yes utd can and will challenge chelsea this year.

i don't want to sound like i'm making excuses here, but this season has been remarkably settled at utd. Very few injuries and a settled squad with no new faces.

look at previous seasons - keane's sudden departure, rooney/saha/smith/solksjaer injuries.... going furthur back....goalkeeping problems/rotation....

this is the first season in a long time utd have had no major long term injuries and a gelled squad who've had at least a season to settle. (bar carrick)

the side picks itself now, or should do:cool:

van der saar
g.neville...........ferdinand.............vidic............heinze
ronaldo.............scholes..............carrick/smith.................giggs
rooney
saha

with strength (or in some cases 'experience') in the squad: smith, solksjaer, evra, brown, silvestre, fletcher, o'shea, richardson....

jesus_thats_gre

Smith is a striker!!!! Jesus ye are not exactly blessed with debt in that department so it would suit ye alot better to play him in position.

plonk

Unied fixed there defender problem this season but what happens if carrick scholes or giggs are injured

sofireland

Well you left out Richardson and Park there.. both could come in and do a job if giggs/scholes were injured i'd imagine fletcher would get the CM nod, and Richardson/Park get the nod to play the wings.

wheres me jumpa

Im not getting too carried away. I had my worries at the start of the season and despite the results I still have them. When you look back at the games, we havent been that impressive.

Weve played 15 games in totol so far this season. In the games against Arsenal, Benfica, Copenhagen, Celtic, Spurs, Reading and Crewe we have been truly awful.

Take the Benfica performance compare it to the Benfica performance last year, what has changed? Nothing.

loyatemu

yeah lack of creative attacking players to backup scholes, giggs and ronaldo will be their undoing I think.

Richardson has talent but is incredibly inconsistent
Park has also been inconsistent, but he did play well for PSV in the champions league, so perhaps he might come good given a run in the team.
Fletcher and O'Shea are average at best, and are not going to trouble defences.

and thats our backup midfield: Park, Fletcher, O'Shea, Richardson
Chelsea's: Robben, Diarra, J. Cole, Wright-Phillips. a bit lightweight perhaps but I know which one I'd choose.

TheMonster

It all boils down to whether Utd can remain relatively injury free until the next Transfer window. They need to avoid injuries to Giggs,Saha,Scholes and Rooney or at worst one of them out.

If they can anything is possible. A lot of people mentioned here that Utd have been top of their form and Chelsea not, thats Bo!!ox, bar 1 or 2 game s this year Utd have not been great. They have gotten their defence sorted out so aren't conceding goals.

Arsenal could challenge if they stop trying to pass the ball into the net and can win games wheir their opponents don't want too attack, we all know they can win 3-0 and 4-0 but can they win 1-0?
Liverpool are too far behind( Chelsea and Utd both have to lose 4 games more than them for the rest of the season) their away form is awful.(1 pen this season).

sundula

Things are slipping at Man U compared to the standards they set for the rest of the prem. They have lost there way in the transfer market.
When you see the players Arsenal and Chelsea are picking up and signing, even Spurs are hunting Europe for talent.
I think his battles with RVN, Stam, Becks and his failure with Veron have tarnished his image with top players - they just dont want to listen to him screaming in their faces and trying to manage their lives he is too oold school. These players all talk and all play in top Clubs - if a potential Man U signing at Real asks RVN about Fergie - what do yu think RVN will say ? " Oh yeah he is a top bloke you should go there" Thats why Wenger gets the players - i have seen interviews with Viera and Thuram who praise him for making them what they are and Henry says the same. If you have those kind of players going around Europe talking so highly of you its got to really help. Jose can just buy his way in but he has brought sucess to alot of players and top players respect that they want to have medals to show at the end of their careers.
The next Man U manager will have to come from Europe, with a history of good working relationships with Top Players.

PHB

In relation to the selling of Ruud, and whether Saha can replace him or not, of course he can't. Saha will never score as many goals as Ruud, Ruud is one, if not, the best finisher in the world.

However, Saha, although I doubted it before, does seem to make the team play better. United have had 10 different goal scorers this year, and that is better than last year when it was just Rooney and Ruud scoring.

As for Ronaldo,

i don't ronaldo has started to get going yet.

Or his for his inconsistancy,

at the start of the season, Ronaldo was playing quite well, and in a couple of matches was without a doubt our best player. Sure he's inconsistant, but he's a kid, I'm fine with that. He is a constant threat.


What I find funny is before the Bolton game United weren't playing well overall, they were playing good and bad, some games good, some bad, but overall weren't playing anywhere near their best in most games, just scrapping through as many people on this board said.

Yet now, they are playing apparently to the absolute best of their ability, and can't go beyond this ability. Yet Chelsea are playing badly and are just waiting to erupt.

This is silly talk.

Sure Chelsea aren't playing amazingly, but who says they should? IMO the balance of their team is way off, with no specific formation, and just a team of superstars playing in their preferred position. When this happens they have individual moments of magic, or team moments also, but mostly individual, and they score some incredible goals. However as a team they aren't working as well as they did in the last two seasons.

Do they really have that much more squad depth than United?

Obviously they have a****load of midfielders, but what about in defense?

Cole, Cavalho, Bridge, Ferreira, Terry, Boulahrouz

That's six players for 4 positions, but it's barely even that, because it's two players for each full back position, and 2 CB's.
That is a weak defsensive depth.

What about up front?

Shev and Drogba. Nothing else. If one of them gets injured, they have one striker. Kalou has shown he is jsut an attacking midfielder. That is less depth than United have in Rooney, Saha, Ole and Smith, yet people don't seem to think that they have little depth up front.

Every time you ask what would happen if Scholes was injured, ask what would happen if Terry was injured?
What would happen if Rooney was injured? What would happen if Drogba was injured?


Yes United are a bit short in midfield, but Chelsea are short in defense and attack. Both sides will probably strength their shortcomings in January.

Are United in midfield really that weak?
Scholes is 32? So what, he is still playing at his best. People forget top footballers can play until they are 32-34, and it's a common myth that once you hit 30 you're gone. While this is the case in some players, many can keep playing on at the top level, as Scholes and Giggs are doing. Next year they might not be around, but for this year, they are hear and playing great.

As for Carrick, two of the goals from the incredible Bolton preformance were created by him. Personally I thought he cost a lot of money when he came, but he has proved himself to me just how good he is. His defensive weaknesses aren't anywhere near as bad as people made out, and he is an incredible passer of the ball. Was he as good as Keano or Scholes was in their prime? No. But I don't believe any current English midfielder is as good as them so that's a silly argument for me. The question is whether he is good enough to compete with Lampard/Essien/Ballack/Gerrard/Alonso/Cesc and I think he is. Just look at the Liverpool game

Fletcher has really come along this year imo, and has played some good games. He can provide adequate squad depth in midfield. I still feel Jones will make an impact this year.

As for O'Shea in midfield, I think we all know the problems with it, but I think Fergie does too, and I think he learnt his lesson after the Arsenal game.

Ultimately, as a fan I think United are going to win the quadruple this year, but in terms of against Chelsea, I think we both have our weaknesses and our strengths. Who will win? I think we will. But even if we don't, I think it's a 50-50 atm, and like the premiership should be.

As for Liverpool, 11 points behind at this stage is possibly overcomeable, but with two teams ahead of them by 11 points, I don't think they can.

Arsenal have and always will be a team that scares the **** out of me, when they get into gear, they are unreal. However I feel they lack the steel in midfield or throughout the squad to beat the likes of Bolton. That's the real difference between ARsenal and Man United imo. Man United can play football as amazingly as Arsenal can, just look at the Bolton game, but they can also get stuck in and do what they need to do to win a game, which you also should just look at the 2nd half of Bolton.

Either way, it's gona be fun.

PHB

Just in response to this:

if a potential Man U signing at Real asks RVN about Fergie - what do yu think RVN will say ?

"United was a fantastic time in my life, not only football but we met some wonderful people," he told the Times.

"I turned down the opportunity twice to come here during my United days but this time I could not say no.

"The history of the club is similar to United. You play at Old Trafford for the first time wearing a United shirt and it is unbelievable.

"Now I have the same feeling with Madrid."

"I owe him a lot and respect him a lot," van Nistelrooy added.

"What happened wasn't so big not to talk to him. I said my thing and we just have to move on. Many great players have left United and other clubs.

"You move to another stage in your career but the memories remain from five fantastic years."

Jose can just buy his way in but he has brought sucess to alot of players and top players respect that they want to have medals to show at the end of their careers.

Just look at the Gallas situation.

sundula

RVN had success and liked the fans there so i would think what he says to the press and what he says behind closed doors is different. Same as what Keanes said to press about Haaland incidents and what he was really thinking and really put down in his book. RVN is hardly going to come out to the press and say that Fergie is poison and runs Old Trafford like a Nazi POW camp.

Would you not agree that Man U under Fergie has always had a problem attracting the real top class players?

I was talking from a siging players point of view - regarding what calibre Jose could attract - he didnt sign Gallas

BaZmO*

sundula wrote:

RVN had success and liked the fans there so i would think what he says to the press and what he says behind closed doors is different. Same as what Keanes said to press about Haaland incidents and what he was really thinking and really put down in his book.

But yet you believe what Viera and Thuram say in public. Me thinks you might be contradicting yourself there buddy, or at least believing what you want to believe.

sundula

Viera and Thuram didnt have a public row(s) with Wenger and leave the Stadium before kick off on there own.

BaZmO*

sundula wrote:

Viera and Thuram didnt have a public row(s) with Wenger and leave the Stadium before kick off on there own.

But how do you know they didn't have private rows with him? The thing is you don't, and none of us here do.

sundula

You perfectly right I dont know. But like alot of debate's on the soccer forum the fans and followers can only give their views on what they believe is going on. I just look at Arsenal see the the french players they have attracted and the other top class french players i believe they could attract and come to the conclusion that Wenger's reputation in France is high and basis on the fact that so many of their players have good things to say about him.

I just trying to make a point that i believe Fergusons failure to capture TOP European talent might be down to his style and personality and that his experiences with foreign imports like RVN and Stam might demonstrate this.

Im not United bashing they had great sucess, great players and played good football but Chelsea are the team to beat now and this thread is to discuss United's fight back and future. I dont feel Fergie can attract the calibre of player to bridge the gap. He has only in recent times found a suitable replacement for Schmichael and he is 35. He hasnt replaced Keane, Beckham and now has to find Gigg's and Scholes replacements. Player for player postion for postion he has some of the poorest players he ever had.

bucks73

We are taking about UNiteds prospects this season and Fergie does not have to replace Scholes or Giggs this season. Given an injury free season (not likely to happen) United will push Chelsea all the way to the end.

sundula

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Would supporters agree that if Ferguson again falls short of overhauling Chelsea, despite the difficult circumstances, it is then time for a new man to give it a shot?

This season and going forward

AnCapaillMor

PHB's point on saha is a great one, ruud may get 25+ goals, but saha will get 15+ and maybe 10+ assists, ruud did'nt get many assists.

Attractive Nun

With regard to SAF's ability to attract top talent, I really don't think it's all that much of an issue. Firstly, I doubt a professional footballer should be all that affected by the management style of prospective teams - they are meant to be professionals. But, in any case, if you look at the amount of players that have spent the best part of their careers at United, it's hard to conclude that Ferguson is such a miserable character. From the current squad, would Giggs, Solskjaer, Scholes, Neville, Silvestre still be there if this was so?

Even if you look at the actual players United have brought in the past 5-6 years, it really is difficult to conclude that it's Ferguson's fault the top players aren't coming. Players like Heinze, Van Nistelrooy, Ronaldo, Van Der Saar, Rooney and Carrick may not have been superstars when they were signed, but they are similar-sized names to those whom United's competition have been able to attract. Between Liverpool and Arsenal, who have been the biggest transfers? Alonso? Rosicky? Bellamy? Gallas? Kuyt? Baptista? Morientes? Pires? It's a fairly level playing field here. The glaring exception is, of course, Chelsea. Massive superstars like Ballack, Makelele, Shevchenko et al. flock to Mourinho, but I'll let you decide whether that's for money and guaranteed success or José's sparkling wit.

The problem seems to be the Premiership itself rather than Ferguson, with big-name Latin and Mediterranean players seemingly preferring to remain in the safety of La Liga and Serie A rather than moving to the fast-paced, less technical Premiership, where so many foreign imports have floundered. In my view, the very fact that Ferguson - in spite of this - has come so close to signing players like Ronaldinho, Ballack and Torres indicates to me how highly he himself, and Manchester United as a whole, are regarded internationally, even without Russian billions.

sundula

Quote from RVN in yesterdays Sun 03/11/06 pg 71 "Fergie is an agressive man who has personal problems with me"

Its true certain players dont want to come to the prem but that has alot to do with life style and climate. If you avoid the players he has signed, and if you believe Heinze Silvestre and Ronaldo are really top class the issue is with the endless string of players they have been linked with over the years that he has lost.

jesus_thats_gre

Do any United supporters think that Silvestre is top class? I do not know any who think it.

county

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Do any United supporters think that Silvestre is top class? I do not know any who think it.

god no,average would be an understatement,any time he`s on the ball or defending it scares me

Attractive Nun

sundula wrote:

Quote from RVN in yesterdays Sun 03/11/06 pg 71 "Fergie is an agressive man who has personal problems with me"

Its true certain players dont want to come to the prem but that has alot to do with life style and climate. If you avoid the players he has signed, and if you believe Heinze Silvestre and Ronaldo are really top class the issue is with the endless string of players they have been linked with over the years that he has lost.

Fair point, but at this stage - after 20 years - Manchester United and Alex Ferguson are essentially synonomous. The fact that they are linked at all seems to me evidence enough that players aren't worried by Ferguson's management style. Besides, it's hardly that different to the top managers across the world - Scolari, Cappello, Hiddink all strike me as no nonsense type managers.

And, no, I don't think Silvestre is top class. But Ronaldo and Heinze are as good as anyone signed to the Premiership in the last five years (outside of Chelsea).

The Muppet

A quick look at the goals for colume in the league table will tell you that United do not miss Ruud. Pre Ruud United were never dependant on one goal scorer, United always scored from all over the pitch and I for one am happy to see that back.

Yes United could really topple Chelsea and win the league this year. Will they? time will tell.


Fergie is the best manager in the premiership bar none, he has shown this season that he is still willing to make the difficult decisions for the benefit of the club and his hunger and focus to succeed is back.

berengar

After just seeing Spurs beat Chelsea 2-1 , (and well done Spurs enjoy the
feeling 1st league win over Chelsea in 16 years) I think Chelsea's only chance to retain the title is by beating united at old trafford in 3 weeks time, not an easy task,
if they lose they are 6 points behind united and I know it's still early
days and 6 points isn't much but I don't think Chelsea have the mental strength
to overturn that deficit(especially against united).
Abuse me if you want but that's just my opinion, last season when Chelsea
faltered a little it didn't really matter as they were allready more or less 10 points clear with only a few games left, and even that shook them, so you can imagine what this will do to them.
Chelsea are class and unstoppable WHEN they are winning and in control,
that goes for matches aswell as seasons.
Look at the last 2 leagues they were top almost from the start and never
looked back, had they had a few dodgy results earlier in the seasons
and shared or lost top spot 04 & 05 could have been completely different stories.
Having said all that United are the very opposite once they take a a reasonably point lead no one will stop them and on the other side if they
are they chasing team they still are strong and never stop,
should chelsea lose at old traf, and are behind 6 points (and thats assuming they beat Watford & West Ham) I don't think they are strong enough to overturn it, just can't see it happening...

jesus_thats_gre

berengar wrote:

I think Chelsea's only chance to retain the title is by beating united at old trafford in 3 weeks time,

Only chance? What are you smoking? If you think United have a better chance of going the rest of the season winning every match than Chelsea do, then you need help.

berengar wrote:

altered a little it didn't really matter as they were allready more or less 10 points clear with only a few games left, and even that shook them, so you can imagine what this will do to them.

To be honest, I totally disagree with you. I personally think that the Chelsea team and players have a massive amount of character and that will come to the forefront when the chips are stacked against them. Think of United a few years ago - the them and us mentality. Chelsea have that now and I think that the best chance United or anyone has of winning the league this season is to catch Chelsea off guard. If they are leading the pack it is easy to get lazy and let your guard down. The opposite is true when they are playing catch up.

Look at the spurs match today for example. When Terry was sent off they became a different team. This shows alot of character. Chelsea have not got into gear yet as they have not really needed to. When their domination is under threat, you will see a new Chelsea.

berengar wrote:

Having said all that United are the very opposite once they take a a reasonably point lead no one will stop them and on the other side if they
are they chasing team they still are strong and never stop,

So United are the complete package. When they get ahead they cannot be touched and if they are trailling, they are like rabid dogs in the chase..

How do you know Chelsea will not be the same?

berengar wrote:

should chelsea lose at old traf, and are behind 6 points (and thats assuming they beat Watford & West Ham) I don't think they are strong enough to overturn it, just can't see it happening...

Assuming Unitd beat Blackburn and Shefflield United on their travels?


You are presuming far far far far too much!!

Attractive Nun

Let's not get ahead of ourselves, it's just gone November. But if we're very fortunate with injuries, and maybe strenghten in January, I think we can win it. Chelsea are still favourites at the moment, but with a few dropped points in the next two games (with a suspended Terry and and out-of-form Bouhlarouz) and a loss at Old Trafford, and I'd probably put United as joint-favourites for the title.

Softly softly.

bucks73

Luckily for Chelsea their next 2 games are at home to Watford and West Ham. Cant really see them dropping points there even with Terry missing.

PHB

em, why can West Ham beat Arsenal and not beat Chelsea?

The thing is, if you want to look at it roperly, you really can't see Chelsea dropping points to anyone but the top 4, but they do.

Mitch Connor

The Muppet wrote:

A quick look at the goals for colume in the league table will tell you that United do not miss Ruud. Pre Ruud United were never dependant on one goal scorer, United always scored from all over the pitch and I for one am happy to see that back.

Yes United could really topple Chelsea and win the league this year. Will they? time will tell.


Fergie is the best manager in the premiership bar none, he has shown this season that he is still willing to make the difficult decisions for the benefit of the club and his hunger and focus to succeed is back.

my monkey mate and his ruudometer for all you missing ruud needs:

http://missingruud.blogspot.com/