Can United really topple Chelsea? And if not....

Nalz

PHB wrote:

em, why can West Ham beat Arsenal and not beat Chelsea?

I think he's emphising the point that Chelsea are at home to 2 sides who ares struggling in the league. Being at home is a massive advantage for a team like Chelsea, I dont think Mourinho has lost a home league fixture in 4 years or somethin like that

BaZmO*

bucks73 wrote:

Luckily for Chelsea their next 2 games are at home to Watford and West Ham. Cant really see them dropping points there even with Terry missing.

Well in fairness, I think you might be right about Chelsea winning the 2 games, however, Watford have only lost 4 out of their 11 games this season and West Ham seem to be turning the corner, with regards to form, after winning their last 2 games so although I wouldn't bet against Chelsea dropping points, it's definitely not a forgone conclusion.

Nalz

BaZmO* wrote:

I wouldn't bet against Chelsea dropping points, it's definitely not a forgone conclusion.

I'll give ya 10/1 now on Chelsea will not win those 2 games

cas they will

bucks73

BaZmO* wrote:

Well in fairness, I think you might be right about Chelsea winning the 2 games, however, Watford have only lost 4 out of their 11 games this season and West Ham seem to be turning the corner, with regards to form, after winning their last 2 games so although I wouldn't bet against Chelsea dropping points, it's definitely not a forgone conclusion.

I agree. Had they been away from home I would fancy them to drop a couple of points but at home I would be very surprised.

RedorDead

Keep in mind also, United still have to visit Chelski, Liverpool and Arsenal.

tred

RedorDead wrote:

Keep in mind also, United still have to visit Chelski, Liverpool and Arsenal.

If united can beat chelsea in a couple of weeks time. Anything could happen. But not many leagues are won at this time of the year. January will give us a good idea. I think united have a great chance this year.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Sizzler

tred wrote:

If united can beat chelsea in a couple of weeks time. Anything could happen. But not many leagues are won at this time of the year. January will give us a good idea. I think united have a great chance this year.

If they get another 1-0 it will REALLY shake things up, Chelsea have never been seriously put under pressure in the last few years so it would be interesting to see how they would cope 6pts or so behind....

BaZmO*

ziggy67 wrote:

Well the referees are certainly doing their bit to aid Utd judging by Rooneys extremely soft penalty, Drogba's goal shockingly chalked off, Terry sent off for god knows what & Hleb being denied a stonewaller. Good work!

:rolleyes:

evad_lhorg

Lets face it.... Rooney or saha out we have no strikers. Smith was never good enough for United and not a good goal scorer. Ronaldo isnt that type of player.

January cant come quick enough...

bucks73

Sizzler wrote:

If they get another 1-0 it will REALLY shake things up, Chelsea have never been seriously put under pressure in the last few years so it would be interesting to see how they would cope 6pts or so behind....

Yeah yeah everyone is against them.

cournioni

ziggy67 wrote:

Well the referees are certainly doing their bit to aid Utd judging by Rooneys extremely soft penalty, Drogba's goal shockingly chalked off, Terry sent off for god knows what & Hleb being denied a stonewaller. Good work!

What goes around comes around. That was United's first penalty of the season in the PL. We have been denied quite a few so far. How many times has Drogba's dives earned penalties for Chelsea? How many times has Terry handballed in the box without a penalty being given? And Arsenal are probably paying the price for Pires' work over the years.

It all evens itself out.

Nalz

ziggy67 wrote:

Well the referees are certainly doing their bit to aid Utd judging by Rooneys extremely soft penalty, Drogba's goal shockingly chalked off, Terry sent off for god knows what & Hleb being denied a stonewaller. Good work!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

evad_lhorg wrote:

January cant come quick enough...

yeah for who? what player will be available then that plays up front?

gracehopper

PORNAPSTER wrote:

What goes around comes around. That was United's first penalty of the season in the PL. We have been denied quite a few so far. How many times has Drogba's dives earned penalties for Chelsea? How many times has Terry handballed in the box without a penalty being given? And Arsenal are probably paying the price for Pires' work over the years.

It all evens itself out.

Spot on!

I think United's commitment has been excellent this year. United will give Chelsea a good go this year if the first team stays fit. It's as simple as that.

When o shea, Fletch & richardson start getting a game we will start losing points. Although i have to say Fletcher has been much improved this year.

We've great strength at the back and in goal but mid and especially up front is thread bare at the moment.

If we beat Chelsea at OT then we've a huge chance.

On another note, Its great to finally see a centre half scoring for United again. Vidic is an animal! Lets hope in continues.

Mitch Connor

we need a striker, and a CM imo.

Hargreaves, Parker, Torres and Huntelaar would be my guess at the targets, with Hargreaves and Torres clear the top targets.

Would also like to see another winger brought in, Nani preferably.

If the current team maintained form and fitness we can certainly push chelsea all the way, but if we have to play O'Shea in any matches, against anyone, we are likely to drop points - and although i highly rate Rossi (due back in January) I would not like to be depending on him to fire us to the league title if Rooney or Saha get injured.

Our squad is too weak imo, beyond the first 11 there is nothing to write home about.

evad_lhorg

Parker would be another standard buy and we dont need another.

BaZmO*

Tauren wrote:

but if we have to play O'Shea in any matches, against anyone, we are likely to drop points

Is that so?

So how do you explain the fact that in the 6 matches that he has played the full 90 minutes in the Premiership this season they have only lost one match while winning the rest?

And out of the other 4 matches that he played a part in they only drew 1 and the won the other 3?

Danger_Dave

...

Danger_Dave

Im Reading here people are worried that if rooney or saha get injured man utd will struggle. I think if both of them get injured man utd will struggle, If one of them is still there i still think the wins will come. Now if Scholes gets injured Man utd will struggle. Look at last season without him. I think if man utd keep scholes fit then and rooney/saha/giggs if 2 of those 3 are there with scholes then I think it will be man utd-Chelski all the way to the end of the season.

Jivin Turkey

Going back to my original point, because obviously we are all in agreement that United are in with some chance of winning the league, if they don't, is it time for Ferguson to step aside?

Everyone thinks that United have a chance, if the squad stays injury free. But should the question not be asked that how is the squad so thin? Is this not supposed to be the Nth team that Ferguson built? How many years has he been shaping it? How come it is still so thin on the ground so?

If United were to fall short this year, that would be just a single title in six years. Considering out of the current starting XI, perhaps only three have been around longer than three years, should Ferguson shoulder the blame for amalgamating a squad that isn't good enough? Or is it more a case that Chelsea have lifted the bar too high and others can't compete?

kippy

PHP made an excellent post earlier on which I fully agree with.
A lot of pundits are using the lines that if united suffer injuries to Scholes, Rooney or Saha, they are pretty much screwed and they have feck all "quality in depth"
The only team in the league with any sort of quality in depth is Chelsea, and as someone else pointed out, in certain areas they are thin on the ground. The fact of the matter is that you cant have "quality in depth" unless:
A) That potential quality is young, as in Arsenals case.
They are not as good as the first choice players but still are happy enough to be backup
C) They dont really care about playing in every match and are willing to fight for their place.

United are not going to by a world class midfielder only to tell him he will be stuck on the bench behind giggs,scholes, ronaldo and carrick-he simply wont go there unless he gets a spot in the team. Its not easy juggling a squad of world class players so that you can always have "quality in depth".
In my opinion United have decent cover for players and there are still a lot of the reserve team dying to get a chance in the first team.
United have the same problems as other teams, including Chelsea when they get injuries to key players, that is the nature of football. Finding hungry players to fill in is the key.

I dont think they will win the league this season but they will come close again.

Mitch Connor

BaZmO* wrote:

Is that so?

So how do you explain the fact that in the 6 matches that he has played the full 90 minutes in the Premiership this season they have only lost one match while winning the rest?

And out of the other 4 matches that he played a part in they only drew 1 and the won the other 3?

I explain it away be citing him as one of the main cluprits for the Arsenal and Copenhagen defeats. he really is just terrible. Positionally terrible, terrible passer, poor tackler, poor decision making - rarely is he not screwing up. He gives the defence no real options when they have the ball, and doesn't pass well enough so the strikers and wingers get isolated. Playing him in midfield is a horrible joke. At LB he is bareable cause his impact on the game can be limited, but midfield is too important for his crapness.

Mitch Connor

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Going back to my original point, because obviously we are all in agreement that United are in with some chance of winning the league, if they don't, is it time for Ferguson to step aside?

Everyone thinks that United have a chance, if the squad stays injury free. But should the question not be asked that how is the squad so thin? Is this not supposed to be the Nth team that Ferguson built? How many years has he been shaping it? How come it is still so thin on the ground so?

If United were to fall short this year, that would be just a single title in six years. Considering out of the current starting XI, perhaps only three have been around longer than three years, should Ferguson shoulder the blame for amalgamating a squad that isn't good enough? Or is it more a case that Chelsea have lifted the bar too high and others can't compete?

a bit of both. Noone can compete with chelsea financialy - but wasting money on players like Djemba Djemba, Kleberson, Bellion, Forlan didn't help. Missing out on players like Parker, who i rate, Hargreaves who could have been gotten cheap if we had made our interest more known earlier, and Duff when he was leaving blackburn haven't been great moves either.

Chelsea have raised the bar, but Fergie should have done better in the transfer market.

BaZmO*

Tauren wrote:

I explain it away be citing him as one of the main cluprits for the Arsenal and Copenhagen defeats. he really is just terrible. Positionally terrible, terrible passer, poor tackler, poor decision making - rarely is he not screwing up. He gives the defence no real options when they have the ball, and doesn't pass well enough so the strikers and wingers get isolated. Playing him in midfield is a horrible joke. At LB he is bareable cause his impact on the game can be limited, but midfield is too important for his crapness.

Well I was only referring to your comment that Utd. were likely to drop points against any opposition that they play againnst this season. Their current form in the league would suggest otherwise.

Mitch Connor

I see it as a simple fact that O'Shea is a horribly weak link, and puts the result against any team in danger. He just is not good enough. He adds nothing to the team imo, and should not be a united player.

Maybe i did over exaggerate, but if we were to play him in midfield against Chelsea at the end of the month, we would be on for a hammering by chelsea.

Although, to be fair to the lad, he did well in CM alongside Giggs last season, mainly cause he didn't try to do anything fancy or get in Giggs' way. Put him beside anyone who is not named Giggs or Scholes and he'll ruin the midfield.

BaZmO*

The thing I don't get about all the O'Shea bashing is that if he really is that bad, what does the likes of Ferguson and all the recent Irish managers see in him that the rest of the world (it seems) doesn't?

PHB

O'Shea does a job in midfield, it isn't amazing, but he plays there only in the off games, and once January comes, it'll be irrelevent.

el rabitos

PHB wrote:

O'Shea does a job in midfield, it isn't amazing, but he plays there only in the off games, and once January comes, it'll be irrelevent.

how will it be irrelevant?

who will united sign? what major club will let their best player who is no doubt already registered for them in european competition join a rival?

bayern last week reiterated that hargeaves is going nowhere, and according to how they've set their stall out regarding him it seems to be the principle of the whole matter to them regarding honouring a contract, seems to me like it would be no sweat off their backs to let him sit him the reserves till 2010 if he acts up again.

theres a premium on good midfielders these days, theres a massively inflated market, and january wont be a time to make big changes imo

RasTa

I dont really want Torres coming in at Jan. I know it sounds strange but i'm happy with the way we are preforming at the moment and bringing Torres in will disrupt that and i can see Fergie switching between rooney,saha,torres. Get Rossi back and OHar in and I think that will be enough to sustain our current form.

Nalz

el rabitos wrote:

who will united sign? what major club will let their best player who is no doubt already registered for them in european competition join a rival?
.......
theres a premium on good midfielders these days, theres a massively inflated market, and january wont be a time to make big changes imo

I agree. United seem to be fighting a losing battle with Hargreaves, who by no means is a world class midfielder. Average at best. He would improve our squad. I dont really like the idea of the likes of Duscher joining the club, I cant see him having a great effect on the premiership. Another Emre IMO.

Id rather see Reo Coker, Davis or the likes (which we would have to pay OTT for) at the club...someone with a bit of fight in them and are neet on the ball.

PHB

Somebody will be brought in, somebody new always emerges, it's how football works.

el rabitos

PHB wrote:

Somebody will be brought in, somebody new always emerges, it's how football works.

well thats crazy talk if ever i read it

PHB

Is it really? Carrick didn't appear until last year as a possible target, Hargreaves was known but his preformances for Bayern made him on United's radar. Somebody else will emerge, they always do.

BaZmO*

PHB wrote:

Is it really? Carrick didn't appear until last year as a possible target, Hargreaves was known but his preformances for Bayern made him on United's radar. Somebody else will emerge, they always do.

Not true. It was his performances in an extremely lacklustre English Squad during the WC that put him on the radar. He has been known to the English Press for quite sometime but for some reason he is being lauded as the saviour for MUFC, which is quite strange for an average player.

el rabitos

PHB wrote:

Is it really? Carrick didn't appear until last year as a possible target, Hargreaves was known but his preformances for Bayern made him on United's radar. Somebody else will emerge, they always do.

i wasnt just talking about hargreaves in my post, i was talking about *any* midfielders, i just cited hargreaves as 1 player who wont be going anywhere.

your saying someone new will emerge as though it will be some secret weapon. people knew about carrick before he joined united, still cost them 14 plus million. even less people knew about xabi alonso, he still cost liverpool 11 million or so.

talent costs money. and because of chelsea it costs alot more money, and because teams dont want to sell players in january is costs even more money on top of that.

the only smart man out there it seems to me, is arsene wenger. he pays peanuts for players compared to man utd and chelsea, it might take him some time to bring them along, but he doesnt have to compete with chelsea, he's smart enough. fergie and rafa would do well to have his eye for a young talent because its the only way to stop chelsea imo.

to make a point, i dont think united are improving much on the squad they have until summer time. which means, pray for no injuries and that the current form can be sustained.

jesus_thats_gre

PHB wrote:

Is it really? Carrick didn't appear until last year as a possible target, Hargreaves was known but his preformances for Bayern made him on United's radar. Somebody else will emerge, they always do.

And how much will that somebody cost? Do United have another 20 million to spare on another player that is not exactly proven?

Nalz

PHB wrote:

Somebody will be brought in, somebody new always emerges, it's how football works.

SOMEBODY?????????????????

PHB

It was his performances in an extremely lacklustre English Squad during the WC that put him on the radar.

Fergie stated specifically he was interested in Hargreaves before the WC, and was disappointed that he preformed so well as it would push up his price.

And how much will that somebody cost? Do United have another 20 million to spare on another player that is not exactly proven?

Well they had the money to buy Hargreaves for a price thrown about around 12 million, so I'd imagine they have some money availible.

Somebody will appear, there are lots of players out there that could strength United's midfield depth.

Just some suggestions:

Reid, Senna, Cahill, Van Bommel, Diop, Kallstrom, Perrotta, Albelda, Reo-Coker

All those players would improve United's, and add considerable depth to United's squad. I doubt all of them would be availible, but I'm sure some could be got for around 10-15 million.

Vokes

I would add Ernst and Poulsen to that list as well - both with Champions League experience with Hamburg and Bremen. And maybe not too expensive.

EDIT: Ooops, Poulsen was with Schalke, not Hamburg, and has since moved to Sevilla

PHB

I don't know them, but sure, there is this misconception that there are only so many top players and that to win the championship everyone has to be a top player, which has just never been true. Sure just look at Chelsea and the job Jarosik did for them one 2nd half of the season.

el rabitos

i'd add delusional and crazy and i know you them

PHB

ah, a cogent argument

el rabitos

PHB wrote:

ah, a cogent argument

about as cogent as "Somebody"

SteM

BaZmO* wrote:

Not true. It was his performances in an extremely lacklustre English Squad during the WC that put him on the radar.

Ferguson was quoted as saying that United were looking at Hargreaves before the world cup. That his good showing in the world cup pushed his price up and made Bayern more reluctant to part with him.

Sir Alex Ferguson has revealed that he has been trying to bring Owen Hargreaves to Manchester United since before the World Cup, but that the club are still some distance from a deal with Bayern Munich for the midfielder.

http://football.guardian.co.uk/News_Story/0,,1854332,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=5

Mitch Connor

PHB wrote:

O'Shea does a job in midfield, it isn't amazing, but he plays there only in the off games, and once January comes, it'll be irrelevent.

I don't think he does that close to well enough - i put the majority of the blame for the poor performance against Copenhagen at O'Shea's door. For his inability to pass, or tackle, or retain possesion. I hate him.

Hargreaves in January. Fingers crossed.

LostinBlanch

PHB wrote:

Just some suggestions:

Reid, Senna, Cahill, Van Bommel, Diop, Kallstrom, Perrotta, Albelda, Reo-Coker

Well don't forget we could actually have got Senna already except for all the f**king around chasing Hargreaves when bayern went back on their word and said that he couldn't go.

Senna, one of the first names on the Spanish team. Just goes to show how good he is for Aragones to have a black player as his number one pick? :eek:

jesus_thats_gre

Man Utd: Kuszczak, O'Shea (Lee 75), Brown, Silvestre, Heinze, Ronaldo, David Jones (Shawcross 90), Fletcher, Richardson, Smith (Evra 60), Rooney.


This team wasn't exactly the second string and it was still beaten by Southend.. Christ.

sundula

Fergie should go if they win nothing this year. His failure in the transfer market is I think his problem.

They either identify a scout(s) with the ability to spot talent and develop some sort of system to sign a player in line with Fergie or they just bring in a new manager with contacts and a record of signing modern unknown talents.

But when he does go who will replace him ?