Americans may require permission to travel.

Hobbes

Homeland Security are trying to get a bill passed that will require all Americans to get permission to travel to different countries. This goes beyond a passport, you will need travel documents for all travel.

http://sianews.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3023

It will automatically put everyone on the no-fly list if they are American until they can prove the government will allow thier journey.

Document is here detailing it.
http://hasbrouck.org/IDP/IDP-APIS-comments.pdf

Pretty scary. Turning into communist-Russia imo. Hasn't passed into law yet afaik. Lets hope someone cops on before then.

Recon

It may be a bit extreme but I do think it's a step in the right direction, maybe they'll finally realise just how hard they make it for everyone else trying to go to the States, and cop on a bit.

Recon

Actually it's just really stupid. I just read it again.

But I still think it's stupid how people visiting the States are treated. I want to go to anywhere in the EU or Switzerland I just smile and show some form of ID. In the States it's a nightmare.

Zombrex

Are you nuts ... this is the best thing the Bush admin has every done! Americans are the most dangerous population group in the world. We need to protect our boarders from them

Thrill

It looks pretty dodgy to me. American democracy seems to have taken a bit of a battering since 9/11 and this looks to be another dent, but if they are willing to accept it as the price of freedom then that is up to them. Fox news is the most popular news channel in America and anyone who has watched it for a period of time will see that their message is that America is under constant danger from terror, not just from abroad but also from within, and they believe it. Not all, but most and because of that this law will probably pass. On the surface it looks a little like the rules they had in the old U.S.S.R. when no one could leave the country without permission from the KGB, but it is very, very far from communism. At least just yet.

metrovelvet

That will never pass but its scary that they are even thinking this way.

They try to bring democracy to the middle east but wont let their own people have free access to their own borders?!!!!

Hobbes

A correction to above, Domestic travel doesn't count as far as I've seen.

Also as of Jan 2007 all Americans will need a passport to visit Canada+Mexico. Not the same as travel papers though. For those that don't know previously it was a bit like Ireland + England. You only needed a drivers license or proof to return.

tallus

I crossed the border into Canada and back to the states last year over the course of a weekend and I have to say the Canadians were much stricter than the Americans at both point of entry and exit.

bbbbb

Does anyone have this from a "real" news organisation?

sovtek

thrill wrote:

On the surface it looks a little like the rules they had in the old U.S.S.R. when no one could leave the country without permission from the KGB, but it is very, very far from communism. At least just yet.

We have a kinda of corporate socialist system at the moment. Communism and democracy aren't mutually exclusive.
This will be one more step towards making the constitution toilet paper.

Hobbes

bbbbb wrote:

Does anyone have this from a "real" news organisation?

The PDF in the story will point you to the actual HLS documents which you can read.

Thrill

Copy and paste the following into google:

US Citizens to be Required ''Clearance'' to Leave USA


there appears to be tons of sites on about it.

EDIT: Just looking at an American board (digg.com) and they have an interesting take on the new wall along the Mexico border and these travel restrictions. They are saying that it could be used just as easily to keep Americans in and not just Mexicans out.A bit paranoid but they are uneasy.

EDIT2:I cant find any credible news sites like cnn, bbc, sky, reuters etc. on about it.
A lot of the sites appear to be anti-bush, anti-republican, conspiracy sites and blogs. Boards like this one have picked up on it and some of them are questioning its source.

Akrasia

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2006/06-6237.htm

The legislation is real.

Customs and Border Patrol are demanding full lists of passengers at least 60 minutes before any plane takes off. No passenger can board the plane until their name is cleared by CBP This applies to all international flights, inbound and outbound, but not to domestic flights,

They claim it's for security but that is complete nonsense because the new rules don't apply to domestic flights, and on 9/11, all the flights were domestic internal routes.

Thrill

Do the DHS have to clear their names first and then give the CBP the all clear or is it up to the CBP alone?

I wonder what the threshold is for high risk?
They could potentially use any excuse to deny travel.


.

Akrasia

thrill wrote:

Do the DHS have to clear their names first and then give the CBP the all clear or is it up to the CBP alone?

I wonder what the threshold is for high risk?
They could potentially use any excuse to deny travel.


.

The CBP and DHS are essentially the same organisation

CBP is the 'frontline agency' of the department of Homeland Security

lostexpectation

Hobbes wrote:

The PDF in the story will point you to the actual HLS documents which you can read.

here some others discussing it, I think it will at only apply to non-citizens... http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2568182#2575757

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2582339

but sure that's how these things start...

pete

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/02/AR2006110201810.html

http://schneier.com/blog/

RedPlanet

pete wrote:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/02/AR2006110201810.html

http://schneier.com/blog/

I don't think those links are relevant to the OP.
Your links are about the "Automated Targeting System", a system whereby persons traveling to and from USA are assigned a sort of score that pertains to some gestapo styled "security risk".
If you score high you get scrutinised more closely.
Or maybe it's just off to the Gulag.
Anyway, the OP was about American citizens having to get permission to leave the country.

bbbbb

All I can see in these links are reference to passenger manifests for commercial aircraft and stories about "unlikely terrorists", i.e. people stopped on mistaken identity.

probe

Recon wrote:

Actually it's just really stupid. I just read it again.

But I still think it's stupid how people visiting the States are treated. I want to go to anywhere in the EU or Switzerland I just smile and show some form of ID. In the States it's a nightmare.

That's because you live in the “British Isles police state”. If you lived in the rest of the EU + Iceland and Norway there are no passport controls in intra-EU travel (within this zone) at all. And Switzerland is joining the passport-free Schengen system from next year.

I was going to say that it is like flying from Dublin to Cork – a domestic flight - but you do have to go through immigration controls after some flights between these airports because the Irish airport system is in such a mess. Ireland has turned into one of the most bureaucratic states in the world over the past decade or so – and one can’t blame Bush for that!

.probe

probe

The Bush administration's hangups on free air travel will also affect non-Americans

USA to ground all travellers until 'cleared'

Security as a blanket presumption of guilt

By Thomas C Greene in Dublin → More by this author


No one will be permitted to board an aircraft or a marine vessel leaving or bound for the United States until cleared by the US Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Bureau of Customs and Border Protection (CBP), under proposed regulations.

Under current regs, the US requires airlines to transmit their manifests no later than fifteen minutes after a plane is in the air, wheels up. This, according to DHS, allows known terrorists to board, then hijack or blow up, commercial planes during the deadly window of opportunity provided between boarding time and when the aircraft is finally diverted or shot down by fighter planes scrambled to "escort" it.

However, if the manifests were to be transmitted before the planes leave the gate, DHS would have time to ensure that "high-risk passengers" are prevented from boarding in the first place, with a subsequent reduction in the number of commercial aircraft needing to be blown out of the skies by their military escorts. Other benefits would include fewer diverted flights, with fewer holidays spoiled and business appointments postponed. Which all sounds quite reasonable.

For DHS, it's a public relations dream come true. No longer will their crummy databases with their prolific false positives create entire planeloads of hateful citizens at each go. Now, only one poor bugger in a turban at a time is going to be inconvenienced for no good reason. When handled individually before boarding, "selectees" can easily be detained, intimidated, humiliated, cavity-searched, and then released as soon as DHS realises its error, without other passengers, and most importantly, the press, taking notice.
Using its Advance Passenger Information System (APIS), DHS has the ability to screen an entire manifest within one hour, or to screen individuals within fifteen minutes of boarding. Airlines will be given a choice between transmitting an entire manifest under the one-hour rule, or transmitting the required "biographical information" on each passenger in real time under an optional fifteen-minute rule.
"Under both options, the carrier will not permit the boarding of a passenger unless the passenger has been cleared by CBP," the Department explains.
Naturally, at a major airport launching planes every minute or so, there's not going to be time enough to check each passenger's identity carefully. The passport will be read or scanned electronically, and if the name under which it's issued doesn't ring any bells, and the picture matches the bearer, it won't be challenged. Indeed, DHS already permits passengers to supply their own APIS information well in advance of travelling, conveniently via the Internet.
During a recent international flight - prior to which I had registered with DHS online - I noticed that no attempt was made to verify my identity. I had a pre-printed boarding pass, and when I arrived at the security checkpoint, a uniformed TSA guard merely glanced at my boarding pass and passport, verified that the names matched, and observed that my face matched the passport photo. It took about two seconds. If I had been a terrorist, I'd have needed only two easily-acquired items: a credit card under a clean alias with which to buy the tickets and obtain a boarding pass, and a passport under the same alias with which to register with APIS and later to scam the TSA guard.
From a security point of view, the new APIS regulation is just another useless counterterrorist rain dance. But from a civil-liberties point of view, there are some curious implications.
According to a public comment submitted to DHS by the Identity Project, World Privacy Forum, and (who else?) John Gilmore, we have here a dramatic escalation in travel restrictions.
But that isn't so. DHS is essentially admitting, without embarrassment, that it is the arbiter of who can travel. This has been the case for some time, since APIS compliance became an obsession in the wake of 9/11. DHS has been diverting flights at will, and removing (usually innocent) "undesirables". What's new here is merely the language: all passengers must be "cleared" in advance by the Department.
In a practical sense, this has been going on for years, only it's been buried under steaming piles of counterterrorist rhetoric. DHS is finally admitting the plain truth: every one of us is on a no-fly list. We are all unfit to travel, until some government clerk verifies that our names don't match his sloppy list of suspected evildoers. Even US citizens cannot enter or leave the USA until they are approved - until they've passed the database test.
The North Korean government has the same basic arrangement, only they don't try to hide it. It's about time Uncle Sam came clean about his own travel approval process. And now, finally, he has. ®

.probe


http://www.theregister.com/2006/11/06/grounded_until_further_notice/

lostexpectation

probe wrote:

The Bush administration's hangups on free air travel will also affect non-Americans

USA to ground all travellers until 'cleared'

Security as a blanket presumption of guilt

By Thomas C Greene in Dublin → More by this author

http://www.theregister.com/2006/11/06/grounded_until_further_notice/

I read a report on msnbc, can't find it again, where it said its now going to use its cargo tracking and risk rating system and apply to humans. including foot traffic etc

Dave!

The USA is turning into a really sick country...... It's scary that they have one of the world's most powerful and advanced militaries, can seemingly start wars willy-nilly (without having to provide proof to back up their reason), can torture people who they think might possibly be in a terrorist in their opinion, and are bringing in legislation like this and the Military Commissions Act.

Is this not really worrying? I mean, if it continues in this vein, then it won't remain a democracy for long. Will the US have to be stopped in the future? Who's gonna do it? China?

Or am I just being grim?

probe

DaveMcG wrote:

The USA is turning into a really sick country

The EU is moving as fast as it can to join them! (eg by enforcing ill conceived US and British airline baggage restrictions EU-wide, even on flights that don’t involve these “terror states”). The measures are brain dead (it is virtually impossible to use “liquid bomb technology” on aircraft with previous security checks and balances). Anyway you can bring almost 1 litre of liquid on board under the new regulations, so long as it is packed in containers of not greater than 100ml. If they are so scared of liquids, but happy with a 1 litre bag of liquid, why not just let people bring 1 litre on board in a single bottle? It would make the process much simpler. It is the same thing as 10 x 100 ml. And why do they allow people buy huge quantities of highly inflammable liquids (alcohol) in airside shops to bring on board an aircraft?

Not dissimilar to installing all these speed cameras on the road networks in Britain (and of late in Ireland). Only 5% of road fatalities are caused by speeding. Most fatal accidents are a result of reckless driving (eg unsafe overtaking leading to head on collisions with 200 km/h impact if both vehicles are doing 100 km/h), alcohol, and to a lesser extent driving too close to the vehicle in front. Issues that can largely be dealt within the driver education process. If there was a driver education process! [They can’t install gardai and cameras every 200m of road to watch everything – the only effective route is proper driver training so that people are shown how to drive responsibly and the risks they incur by not doing so].

Why is the political and administrative process so dysfunctional when it comes to managing its business?

.probe

Akrasia

probe wrote:

The EU is moving as fast as it can to join them! (eg by enforcing ill conceived US and British airline baggage restrictions EU-wide, even on flights that don’t involve these “terror states”). The measures are brain dead (it is virtually impossible to use “liquid bomb technology” on aircraft with previous security checks and balances). Anyway you can bring almost 1 litre of liquid on board under the new regulations, so long as it is packed in containers of not greater than 100ml. If they are so scared of liquids, but happy with a 1 litre bag of liquid, why not just let people bring 1 litre on board in a single bottle? It would make the process much simpler. It is the same thing as 10 x 100 ml. And why do they allow people buy huge quantities of highly inflammable liquids (alcohol) in airside shops to bring on board an aircraft?

Not dissimilar to installing all these speed cameras on the road networks in Britain (and of late in Ireland). Only 5% of road fatalities are caused by speeding. Most fatal accidents are a result of reckless driving (eg unsafe overtaking leading to head on collisions with 200 km/h impact if both vehicles are doing 100 km/h), alcohol, and to a lesser extent driving too close to the vehicle in front. Issues that can largely be dealt within the driver education process. If there was a driver education process! [They can’t install gardai and cameras every 200m of road to watch everything – the only effective route is proper driver training so that people are shown how to drive responsibly and the risks they incur by not doing so].

Why is the political and administrative process so dysfunctional when it comes to managing its business?

.probe

welcome to neo-liberal postmodern society.

We want all the rights and none of the responsibilities. We want all the choice with none of the consequences. We want quality but we demand convenience. we work long hours to earn money that we don't have any time to enjoy. We know all of these are contradictions, but we still believe those who tell us we can live the impossible lifestyle.

We elect people who we know are liars, and then complain when they break their promises.

probe

Akrasia wrote:

welcome to neo-liberal postmodern society.

We want all the rights and none of the responsibilities. We want all the choice with none of the consequences. We want quality but we demand convenience. we work long hours to earn money that we don't have any time to enjoy. We know all of these are contradictions, but we still believe those who tell us we can live the impossible lifestyle.

We elect people who we know are liars, and then complain when they break their promises.

I will rephrase the question so - why do the people vote for all this dysfunctionality?

.probe

Black Swan

Hobbes wrote:

Homeland Security are trying to get a bill passed...

Correction: Homeland (In)Security.