Re-mapping/chipping - is it worth it?

mike65

Anyone chiped or remapped thier wagon as a way to boost drivability as opposed to lengthening thier willie?

Is it worth the price, and how much is a typical tweak?

Mike.

Eoin

mike65 wrote:

Anyone chiped or remapped thier wagon as a way to boost drivability as opposed to lengthening thier willie?

Is it worth the price, and how much is a typical tweak?

Mike.

Have been tempted myself - think it would cost about €350 to remap my car, and it would respond very well (should add ~30BHP, and lots of torque).

Having said that, I can't help but wonder if it is shortening the life of the engine. I just don't see how there can be so little of a price to pay, apart from a slight drop in MPG. One of the regulars here seems to think this also, but some of his other sweeping statements would make me take him less seriously.

Check this site here.

mike65

As I understand it, the tolerances of a modern engine are nowhere near being tested by the OEM spec output and that there is plenty of room for boosting absolute power and torque. Fuel economy might be better if you have to cane it less.

€350 is a bit pricey!

Mike.

Eoin

mike65 wrote:

As I understand it, the tolerances of a modern engine are nowhere near being tested by the OEM spec output and that there is plenty of room for boosting absolute power and torque. Fuel economy might be better if you have to cane it less.

€350 is a bit pricey!

Mike.

Mike, I guess that's right. From the FAQ section of the site I posted earlier:

Why don’t the car manufacturers do the remapping in the first place, surely a more powerful engine is a selling point?
This is a very good question, why does a car manufacturer purposely de-tune an engine before they sell it. There are a few reasons for this - one is that the manufacturers have to sell there car all over the world and must de-tune there engines for different fuel grades and atmospheric conditions to prevent engine damage caused by these conditions. They also have to take in to account the average car buyer not every car buyer is like you they don’t all want blistering horsepower from there engine, a new mother for example isn’t going to be too impressed by a VW Golf TDI wheel spinning in third gear when she takes it for a test drive. So they must compromise between out & out performance and general sale ability.

I would think that €350 is alright, but again, that would give my car a very noticeable increase in performance (+30BHP / +55Nm torque). The petrol version of my car doesn't respond well at all to a remap by all accounts, so in that scenario, it wouldn't be good value for money. My commute is soon going to be cut in half, so MPG isn't as big a factor for me, so I may have to take the plunge!

maidhc

I did a fair bit of research on getting my Focus remapped and found from various websites (mostly ffoc.co.uk) that:

a) The car puts out well more than the advertised 115ps as standard (120/125).
b) Remapping/tuning box people normally included this into their "gains".
c) Scientific real world tests showed no performance gain worth talking of.
d) Tuning boxes were blamed for lots of injector failures.

It seems though that Ford ECUs are particularly hard to remap, so maybe these conclusions don't hold true for every car.

If you have a 1.8 normally aspirated petrol you won't see much difference. The remaps generally only adjust like turbo cars because it is easy to mess with turbo pressure to increase power.

(meant to add)

I got the latest map from ford on my car for about €60 from the main dealer, and it made a big difference. It doesn't have any more power, but it is now harder to stall and doesn't have an annoying flat spot at 3k rpm.

Do-more

This might be of interest....

http://cgi.ebay.ie:80/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130040828524&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:IE:2

Neilw

Maidhc,

I had a tdci 115 focus, I had the car rolling road tested and it put out 129bhp as standard.
Have you looked into the superchips bluefin? I had this map on my car and it made a big improvement.

Neil.

colm_mcm

I'd find it hard to believe that a manufacturer would understate their perfrormance figures.

Neilw

It happens a bit, most vw tdi's produce more than the quoted figures. Tdi 150's have been known to produce 160+ bhp.
As for the focus I had mine twice on 2 different rolling roads, figures ranged from 128 to 130.2 bhp. There was another focus tdci with higher mileage than mine 65k I think, mine had about 12k miles on it at the time and his produced 131 bhp.
Have a look at http://www.ffoc.co.uk/modules.php?name=Forums, seems most of the later 1.8tdci motors produce more than the stated power.

Neil.

VeVeX

Do-more wrote:

This might be of interest....

http://cgi.ebay.ie:80/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130040828524&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:IE:2

Have read about horror stories about using this kit, Better let the pros like westard eng do the job then homebrew obd flashing units imho.

Mr Magnolia

I drove a GTTDI golf that had been re-mapped, think it was putting out around 190 horsies, it was unreal.

It depends on the car IMO. Fuel economy will increase by 10-15% but it's not about economy IMO. I'm picking up a 320d (150bhp) in January, I will drive it for a while before deciding to re-map it but I'd say it's only a matter of time.


Re-mapping service: http://www.chippedire.com/index.php?view=home

Opinion (BMW but relevant anyways): http://www.bmwland.co.uk/talker/viewtopic.php?t=38067

maidhc

Sparks400 wrote:

It depends on the car IMO. Fuel economy will increase by 10-15% but it's not about economy IMO.

Now that I don't believe! If your car is generating more power, it must use more juice! There is no way an OEM would make their car thirstier AND down on power.

@Neilw: Bluefin is too expensive at £500STG!

fletch

maidhc wrote:

Now that I don't believe! If your car is generating more power, it must use more juice! There is no way an OEM would make their car thirstier AND down on power.

@Neilw: Bluefin is too expensive at £500STG!

Yes if you are flooring it the whole time, then of course it will use more fuel.....but the map is meant to optimize air/fuel mixing so can improve fuel consumption

maidhc

fletch wrote:

Yes if you are flooring it the whole time, then of course it will use more fuel.....but the map is meant to optimize air/fuel mixing so can improve fuel consumption

Optimise it more than the OEM who designed and built the engine?

Why on earth would a highly respected manufacturer like VAG/BMW/PSA actively make their engines less economical? It isn't as if the lads reverse engineering the CPUs know more about the engine, or have a multi billion euro budget and about 5 years development time for fine tuning their designs.

kdevitt

Its definitely worthwhile for the turbo diesels. Newer N/A cars don't respond that well - the newer BMW's for instance have an ECU that already adapts itself to your driving style, and mine got sweet F.A from a remap.

One of the guys on my site had a remap that actually lost him power - and the vendor wasn't able to restore his car to its previous setting like promised, which resulted in him having to go back to BMW for new software. There are definitely one or two complete cowboys out there doing the work - so I'd do your homework before picking anyone to do the work.

Gurgle

maidhc wrote:

Optimise it more than the OEM who designed and built the engine?

Why on earth would a highly respected manufacturer like VAG/BMW/PSA actively make their engines less economical? It isn't as if the lads reverse engineering the CPUs know more about the engine, or have a multi billion euro budget and about 5 years development time for fine tuning their designs.

Higher air:fuel ratio means higher running temperature, more power output and better fuel efficiency. The higher running temperature could potentially reduce the life of the engine but the the parts affected generally have a life-span exceeding the rest of the car anyway. At higher temps, the oil will lose its viscosity sooner and the spark-plug life will be reduced. Most cars are over-cautiously specced for service intervals anyway so thats not really an issue. Don't do it on a Fiat or a Rover (or anything else with a tradition of blowing head gaskets), work away on a Japanese or German car.

maidhc

Gurgle wrote:

Higher air:fuel ratio means higher running temperature, more power output and better fuel efficiency.

My understanding is that most remaps in a diesel work by increasing the amount of air (using a turbo), and amount of fuel (by raising the rail pressure). The reason I assume remaps don't do much for normally aspirated petrols is that these parameters are more or less impossible to alter by software only.

A remap in a diesel is going to put more pressure on the injection system and turbo, both of which are already very weak points in modern diesels.

Gurgle

maidhc wrote:

My understanding is that most remaps in a diesel work by increasing the amount of air (using a turbo), and amount of fuel (by raising the rail pressure).

Sorry, I don't know **** about diesel turbos. I was talking about electronically controlled fuel-injected petrol engines.

Golf TDIs respond very well to chipping, giving a large boost to torque figures.

However I have heard of people burning through their clutches in super quick time due to the extra stress on the OEM clutch. I remember reading that the clutch should be upgraded to stronger model if the driver intends to use that extra power frequently.

It BeeMee

I remember Top Gear remapped a Transit some time back.
The wheel-spin on take-off was impressive.....

As regards "is it worth it" .... can't comment as never drove a remapped car. However, I've never had any power issues with an OEM spec....

maidhc

It BeeMee wrote:

I remember Top Gear remapped a Transit some time back.
The wheel-spin on take-off was impressive.....

That was just cheating. The transit engine is severely detuned to start with so it will live a long happy life of abuse and neglect.

It BeeMee

That only emphasis the point : manufacturers build engines for longer life rather than higher performance.

mike65

All interesting stuff, my car is 1.8 non-turbo which various sites promise to raise by 12-15 bhp and 30 lbs of torque from 125 bhp. Not sure its worth the money tbh. I'll buy some go faster stripes.

Mike.

HashSlinging

not sure a naturally aspirated engine gets much benifit from a remap, something along the lines of an induction kit and a high performance air filter would be just as effective if not more.

unkel

It BeeMee wrote:

That only emphasis the point : manufacturers build engines for longer life rather than higher performance.

True but there's a lot more to it than that. The current price / output difference in the VAG range in particular of PD diesels and indeed turbo petrols is more marketing than anything else

There's a good bit to say for tuning an undertuned engine that will only be used in a very mild climate like in Ireland: never cold, never hot

mike65 wrote:

my car is 1.8 non-turbo which various sites promise to raise by 12-15 bhp and 30 lbs of torque from 125 bhp

Not worth it imho. The turbos are much more suitable. The torque in your car is decent enough coming in at low enough revs for the engine size. Anyway, much more go than the 2.0l baby Merc, no?