Recruitment agencies - name, shame (and praise)

New Ice Age

^What an absolute shambles!!

TallGlass

Christ on a bike has anyone ever dealt with Flextime in Sandyford? Oh my word, I am totally lost. I know the answer to my interview was a no, but for some reason this person seems intent on just not giving me an answer to my question !

Three times I have ask could she give me an update, today was the worst. I was told at around 10am the process was suspended, only to just see the job relisted on a job website ! WTF.

Even if I was offered the job at this stage the incompetency of something so simple, I would say no thanks, go take a hike.

Just to ad the 'interview' was a piss take, not even sure it was an interview, in fact I don't even know why I was there. Maybe they like wasting peoples time.

Delta Echo Charlie

So what's the money like in recruitment?

Do recruitment consultants earn a decent wedge?

L.Jenkins

Delta Echo Charlie wrote: »

So what's the money like in recruitment?

Do recruitment consultants earn a decent wedge?

From what I gather, it seems orientated towards 'Sales'. Get a candidate into a role and get paid for it. So I'm assuming it's a basic wage with commission. On another note, I applied for a Systems Admin role in Galway. I was turned down for the role because I didn't research the Company adequately, apparently and only for that reason. I wonder if anyone else can relate, but I have never once given a flying fuck about any Company I've worked for. As long as I got along with everyone, the role pays well and what I do is interesting.

GoodKill

That's a ridiculous reason not to be given the job.

Are companies really so full of their own BS that they think people want to specifically work for them!?

Never cared about any company I've worked and unless it's my own, I never will either.

Saint_Mel

I wouldn't say that but I'd be inclined to think if someone has job hopped a bit they would want to see if the candidate just wanted another job to fill a gap or whether they were actually interested in the company and would be more inclined to stay longer term.

If 2 candidates were close match skills wise then that could be a deciding factor

Gael23

Andalucia wrote: »

Quest Recruitment - phantom roles is all they have advertised, as inept an organisation as you will find

I have had as positive of an experience as could be expected with Quest. The one negative was the recruiter I initially made contact with left the company and I was never informed.
However, that persons replacement did get in touch and within 2 weeks had an interview for me. I didn't get that job and due to personal circumstances I'm off the market for a few months but I will be getting in touch with them when I'm in a position to take a job.
Brightwater disappointed me. They lined me up to interview for a role that really suited me, being an entry level role I knew it would be competitive and raised a concern about my lack of experience but was assured this wasn't the deciding factor and all the people he sent forward were around the same level as me - Someone with 6 months more experience than me got the job.

As someone looking for work for the first time, Manpower Recruitment have nearly put me off using recruitment agencies. I honestly don't know where to start. I have to say I felt pressurised into going forward for roles at times by them though.

poconnor16

Delta Echo Charlie wrote:

Do recruitment consultants earn a decent wedge?

Basic wage is usually low, I would say average 22k. Zero benefits usually. Then it's commission on top of that. There is a threshold - minimum amount of commission you must earn before you are paid any. This varies by agency.
Commission is paid by placement.

uck51js9zml2yt

Gael23 wrote: »

As someone looking for work for the first time, Manpower Recruitment have nearly put me off using recruitment agencies. I honestly don't know where to start. I have to say I felt pressurised into going forward for roles at times by them though.

I worked for manpower for 6 months on a contract role that they resourced. Found them fine to deal with.

Gael23

Harry Young Lanyard wrote: »

I worked for manpower for 6 months on a contract role that they resourced. Found them fine to deal with.

I didnt have a good experience at all, I don't know here to start.

I mentioned yesterday I find Quest good but I will say they have a high staff turnover which is never a good sign.

xOxSinéadxOx

What are the best agencies for temp office work?

Laura_A

I would say Brightwater ate the best for office temping... I used to work in agency (not brightwater) and our temps always seems to be able to get more reliable/better paid temping jobs with them...

Black_Knight

Just came across this thread, and since im just after going through the whole rigmarole of interviews, 1 company I interviewed for (recruiter found them for me) came to mind. Only until I checked my emails did I realise it was CPL, everyones favourite. The role was in my area of work, but certainly not my level. It was an entry/junior level position doing monkey work, and in the end they didnt make me an offer because they thought id be bored and leave. They were likely right.

The lady from CPL was grand, but really she just passed my CV onto them and liaised between us. She sent on some "tips" and "interview questions", but there were awful generic HR "situation type" questions. Not a terrible experience, but just a waste of time.

In the end, I got a job going directly to a company.

Foxhound38

A lot of it really depends - on what agency you deal with, how clued in the individual recruitment consultant handling you is with regard to the industry they are recruiting for and how clued in you are as a candidate as to how agencies operate and what they will and will not do.

Recruitment Agencies aren't some fluffy jobcare service, they're businesses operating in a highly volitile and pressurised environment. As a business, they will do what is in their own best interests first and foremost - don't be offended by that, it's how every business that survives operates regardless of industry. It is all about the money at the end of the day, and recruiters are under a huge amount of pressure to keep it coming in (not to mention that their own basic pay tends to be terrible, the caveat being that the good ones can bring in quite a lot in commission - anyone who tells you that recruitment isn't sales either doesn't know what they are talking about or is telling a fib).

One mistake a lot of people using agencies make is that they assume the Consultant is working for them, when the reality is that their commission and continued business comes from keeping their clients happy. Some people have complained on this thread that recruiters tend to be initially vague when describing jobs, not giving the company name and exact location etc. Nearly all of them do this until they are sure the candidate will stick with the process, as the last thing they want is for the candidate to go over their heads - their time and energy is wasted then. Another mistake people make is that they come into the process thinking the Recruiters are miracle workers - in most cases, if you throw a CV at an agency and it shows you to have been in 10 different jobs in the last 9 years or a load of unexplained gaps in your emloyment history you needn't have bothered because there just isn't a lot any recruiter can really do with that.

A decent recruiter (and they do exist, along with some fairly terrible ones although the latter don't tend to last long in that game) isn't going to put you forward for a position they aren't positive your suitable for because it will waste their time, their clients time and your time. Decent recruiters will take the time to prep you for each stage of your interview, and will keep you informed at every step of the process - at th end of the day it's in their own interests to do so. There is a value in using a decent recruiter, and in general there is a lot of behind the scenes work that the do during the recruitment process. One good thing is that they can often negotiate a higher salary with the client than you can by going direct, and since their fee is calculated based on a percentage of your yearly salary it is within their interests to make sure you are being paid as much as possible.

Biggest advice I can give is to make sure you're dealing with an established agency and not a fly-by-night. See how long they've been around, and whether they are accredited by the National Recruitment Federation at a minimum. Be honest and direct with the recruiter in terms of what you want, and be prepared to listen to their perspective in return (this is also a good way to figure out whether you are dealing with someone who knows the market and what they are talking about). Finally, do cut them some slack from time to time - most of them are at least trying to do right by you and it's quite a pressurised and stressful job they do.

Source: I'm a former recruiter

number13

Can any recommend a good recruitment agency for a graduate in supply chain ? I ve seen Morgan McKinley have a department dealing with just supply chain

VW 1

Had a call on Thursday from a recruiter from quest that I am connected with through LinkedIn. Saw the call on my phone and ignored it as I was sitting at my desk.

5 mins later I got a call on my desk phone from reception which isn't unusual. Picked it up only for the person on the other end to introduce themself as said recruiter, apologising for catching me in work but hurriedly explaining they had a role I may be interested in and could I let them know when free to take a call on my mobile.

I was pretty annoyed over this, and want to go directly to their employer to complain at this, but is there any point in this, would the complaint be taken seriously or are these people encouraged to do anything necessary to get potential candidates?

allibastor

VW 1 wrote: »

Had a call on Thursday from a recruiter from quest that I am connected with through LinkedIn. Saw the call on my phone and ignored it as I was sitting at my desk.

5 mins later I got a call on my desk phone from reception which isn't unusual. Picked it up only for the person on the other end to introduce themself as said recruiter, apologising for catching me in work but hurriedly explaining they had a role I may be interested in and could I let them know when free to take a call on my mobile.

I was pretty annoyed over this, and want to go directly to their employer to complain at this, but is there any point in this, would the complaint be taken seriously or are these people encouraged to do anything necessary to get potential candidates?

That is shocking to be fair, but it isnt unheard of with Agencies.

I know in some cases companies will use them for this specific reason as it can be difficult to get a candidate on the phone if they are not active on the market but you wish to speak to them anyway/

Not ideal but you must have some good skills for a recruiter to do this, it must be a nice commission for them!

VW 1

allibastor wrote:

Not ideal but you must have some good skills for a recruiter to do this, it must be a nice commission for them!

Less the good skills, more so the very competitive high turnover industry that is fund accounting.

allibastor

VW 1 wrote: »

Less the good skills, more so the very competitive high turnover industry that is fund accounting.

Well there is that too!!!

Still though, I have had numerous recruiters contact me through company mailbox, company call center, company LinkedIn and facebook.

It isnt the best thing to come up in director conversations why your being contacted so much!!

on_my_oe

Gilligan Black - I dealt with them years ago, and eventually copped on it was a phantom role after weeks of being mucked around.

I've actively avoided their advertisements ever since, but recently one did wheel me. Sure enough, went for the agency interview - and yet again another phantom role.

They must be getting someone roles, as the lights are in in their office (so the bill is being paid), but I've not yet met anyone with a positive experience of them.

Mc Love

The problem with recruitment agencies is that you cant reach the hiring manager yourself. I know, thats not what they are there for but trusting the hiring system in this country is a joke. They really should do away with it.

razorblunt

allibastor wrote: »

Well there is that too!!!

Still though, I have had numerous recruiters contact me through company mailbox, company call center, company LinkedIn and facebook.

It isnt the best thing to come up in director conversations why your being contacted so much!!

Agreed. I'm pretty open with who I connect with on LinkedIn, I'll happily accept recruiters as it's good to know what the job market is like and I've used it a few times to get a payrise where I felt it warranted it.

Had to talk my boss down a few times as, at this moment in time you could get 2/3 connections a week.

I've only ever complained one recruiter though, their company was dropped off our preferred supplier list as it seemed to be another in a long list of complaints.

allibastor

razorblunt wrote: »

Agreed. I'm pretty open with who I connect with on LinkedIn, I'll happily accept recruiters as it's good to know what the job market is like and I've used it a few times to get a payrise where I felt it warranted it.

Had to talk my boss down a few times as, at this moment in time you could get 2/3 connections a week.

I've only ever complained one recruiter though, their company was dropped off our preferred supplier list as it seemed to be another in a long list of complaints.

Oh no, I mean when the recruiter actually contacts you through the company page asking you for a role.

I mean you can check the email on an account, and if two accounts exist you can see which email is which. the one that says info@ or contact@ prob isnt the persons direct mail!!!

razorblunt

allibastor wrote: »

Oh no, I mean when the recruiter actually contacts you through the company page asking you for a role.

I mean you can check the email on an account, and if two accounts exist you can see which email is which. the one that says info@ or contact@ prob isnt the persons direct mail!!!

Ah I see. Only ever experienced in the other way around!

cilles man

My experience with recruitment agencies are something similar to those already expressed, Temple recruitment were recruiting three yr ago for baggage handlers for the airport . We all received our contracts on being sucessful with all conditions and pay rates on it . Everything was fine untill 5 months into contract a rep from Temple rang to say that they were changing our pay rate , lowering it by £2 euro an hour. When some of us investigated into this to see if it was legal , we were told we had no rights untill 1 year being employed, this in my mind is pure extortion and also gives people a false sense of security by this aforementioned agency.When travel cost were taken into consideration unfortunately it wasn't worth while for me to continue working with this group , so please be very careful of this Temple Recruitment Agency, also worth while mentioning the individual that interviewed us and gave us the start was still employed but would not come to meet us at any stage.May I add that a colleague of the lady that interviewed us was sent to enforce this upon us and it shows up working for these agencies can be a dirty business enflicting poor conditions on workers that want to go out and work and not sit on benefit street.

fungie

I am looking for my first 'real' job at the moment after too many years in college. I am looking to getting into data science. I have seen a few ad's from recruiters, thing is I have no idea how they work. I have only read bad things online. Can anybody recommend how to navigate this minefield?

Mc Love

fungie wrote: »

I am looking for my first 'real' job at the moment after too many years in college. I am looking to getting into data science. I have seen a few ad's from recruiters, thing is I have no idea how they work. I have only read bad things online. Can anybody recommend how to navigate this minefield?

Save yourself - dont!

tiffbunny

fungie wrote: »

I am looking for my first 'real' job at the moment after too many years in college. I am looking to getting into data science. I have seen a few ad's from recruiters, thing is I have no idea how they work. I have only read bad things online. Can anybody recommend how to navigate this minefield?

There are many great IT companies in Dublin offering a ton of opportunities for passionate grads -- right now is a great time to be in your position. Find one of those and skip the recruiter unless you can't find something you're really interested in yourself by the end of the year.

GradIreland is a fairly popular resource, but surprisingly many of the more forward-thinking companies are advertising and hiring off of Facebook ads as well when targeting the graduate market. Check LinkedIn, Glassdoor, etc.

As a sidenote, grad programmes won't say Data Science specifically, but the better ones will take your area of focus into consideration over the course of the program or when deciding your initial placement within the company. If that's something that's important to you, double check during the application process that you won't end up randomly placed on a .Net or PL/SQL team, etc.

Best of luck to you!

fungie

tiffbunny wrote: »

There are many great IT companies in Dublin offering a ton of opportunities for passionate grads -- right now is a great time to be in your position. Find one of those and skip the recruiter unless you can't find something you're really interested in yourself by the end of the year.

GradIreland is a fairly popular resource, but surprisingly many of the more forward-thinking companies are advertising and hiring off of Facebook ads as well when targeting the graduate market. Check LinkedIn, Glassdoor, etc.

As a sidenote, grad programmes won't say Data Science specifically, but the better ones will take your area of focus into consideration over the course of the program or when deciding your initial placement within the company. If that's something that's important to you, double check during the application process that you won't end up randomly placed on a .Net or PL/SQL team, etc.

Best of luck to you!

Thanks for the info, Ive applied to positions from everywhere. I am just wondering specifically about what recruiters do/ are like since I am not looking at grad positions.

on_my_oe

fungie wrote: »

Thanks for the info, Ive applied to positions from everywhere. I am just wondering specifically about what recruiters do/ are like since I am not looking at grad positions.

recruitment agencies are basically sales people - they're in the business of selling jobs to people, or selling people to companies.

In an ideal world, a company decides they need to fill vacancies, but they don't want to handle this internally. reasons vary but examples;
* The company isn't big enough for its own HR department
* Its a specialist role and they don't want to screw up the hiring process (e.g. they don't actually know what skills are needed, what the job does - often IT related)
* The HR department is overwhelmed / too small to do mass recruiting
* Someone is about to get the boot but they don't want the news getting out before the replacement is found (usually senior roles or where there is just one person performing the role).

The hiring company contacts the recruitment agency and says "We are recruiting x number of people for x number of roles". They may or may not have a job description and/or person specification - the agency is usually happy to prepare a semi generic one (cut and paste!). The agency will then use software to match the description against CVs already in its database, and if it gets a hit, the agent will review the CV and contact the person. The agency will also advertise to attract the CVs to widen the candidate pool and/or target applicants via LinkedIn. Sometimes the same role is advertised by two competing agencies (this can get hairy, I've been trapped by two agencies before). Often job applicants will be asked to come in and chat about the role - really you are registering your details. They will filter down to a limited number of CVs which will be sent on to the hiring company.

The hiring company will do their own filtering - they may know you because of the industry or know someone who knows you (LinkedIn throws things up). They'll invite people in for interviews, and with luck, you might get offered a job.

If your CV is very good or if you have particular skills which are heavily in demand (or both!), the recruitment agency can shop your CV around key employers to bait interest.

Recruitment agencies can be good as they can polish your CV and if you register with enough of them, its also good interview practice. The bad side is the game playing - they advertise jobs that don't exist to beef up their CV database, they make vague promises of putting your CV forward when the job is actually being advertised by the employer themselves and they are just pushing for a commission (this is why you will see statements at the end of job adverts saying "We do not require the assistance of recruitment agencies at this time"), and if you get to offer stage, the package offered can be crap as they are more interested in retaining the recruitment account long term than getting you the best deal. This is because the recruiter is working for the hirer (the client), not you.

If you are just starting out or are changing careers, it can be worthwhile seeing a careers coach to practise interviews, polish your CV, prepare your target market etc, but if you are on a budget, use recruitment agencies with an open mind and take what you can get from them in terms of CV editing, interview help etc.

This is of course just my 2 cents worth...

helimachoptor

Been a while but Recruiters.ie were pretty decent.

Computer futures i told to f**k off, they keep spamming me with Hey Heli... great position etc etc in data anlytics, i dont work in data analytics. Final straw was an email from some guy fresh off the street, so i politely emailed him back saying i havent worked in testing since 2007.. then he called me 2 days later.. it did not go well

TallGlass

I'll add this crowd to this list

The Business Practice, Dublin

1. Group interview, without even been told
2. Job readvertised
3. No follow up after been told there would be early this week (Monday)
4. Had to follow up myself now Friday
5. Forced to write in red, which is totally rude!

micromary

Good description on_my_oe of the game of recruitment agencies. Thanks. Next Generation are still ringing me about about certain jobs despite me telling them to stop. A role that they advertised last year is still on job sites but the guy who rang me today told me that it had "recently being filled". Now I got another 3 calls (not answered) as it was not at a appropriate time. I do not know if sometimes these guys are so desperate or totally taking the **** with candidates.

xkariex

Hall recruitment in Dublin are a joke!!

terrydel

helimachoptor wrote: »

Been a while but Recruiters.ie were pretty decent.

Computer futures i told to f**k off, they keep spamming me with Hey Heli... great position etc etc in data anlytics, i dont work in data analytics. Final straw was an email from some guy fresh off the street, so i politely emailed him back saying i havent worked in testing since 2007.. then he called me 2 days later.. it did not go well

Totally agree, theyve (CF) had me come into their offices twice, more fool me for doing so. The first time it was prior to an interview that was ulitmately unsuccessful. I've tried twice to get feedback on why this was so, to no avail.
Second time I went in and 2 specific roles were mentioned, but despite requests for updates, I've not heard a thing since.
Total waste of my time.
Constantly spammed with emails, often for jobs that are not anything close to my skillset.
I won't bother to deal with them the next time.

Another in that boat would be Allen recruitment. They contacted me over two jobs. They were slow getting back so I chased it up and they said one of the roles was unsuccessful because I failed the techincal test. This was news to me as I had never even done it! When I told them this, they simply said 'sorry it was a mistake, they just didnt think your cv was what they wanted.'
Hey, Im perfectly capable of failing technical tests on my own, I dont need their help :P
They preceded to email me about that same job a copule of weeks later!

Daenarys

I've never had a good experience with agencies but I hate CPL in Limerick. Another one for advertising phantom roles.....they also NEVER answer their phones or reply to emails.

A different agency left a voicemail with the impression she had a role of interest for me when I called back, she was merely updating her database and send in a current copy of my CV.............I hadn't heard from her in about a year which was when I sent in my first CV.

I hate recruitment agencies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

retalivity

Not actively looking at the moment but just got 3 emails from stelfox within a minute, one addressed to my firstname (dear mr reta) , one addressed to my last name (dear mr livity), and one addressed to my full email address (dear mr retalivity@email.com). The body of all 3 emails was the same, apart from a find/replace of the names in each.
Looks like they cant even be bothered to manage or proofread their generic mass market emails anymore.

kaisersoze

Another one from Adecco
Posted job as permanent and after a lot of drama turns out to be a contract
Don't get what these guys are up to

micromary

I had actually a pretty good experience recently dealing with somebody in Eden Recruitment. They actually what was pretty much the truth and were helpful for the most part. That that is something very rare is this sorry industry.

benzy00

Next generation recruiters, by far and away the worst I've dealt with. Due to my unfortunate career choices,I get alot of contract work, which means always getting hassled by agencies. Some to stay away from are hays,Grafton,sigmar. I found Abrivia were decent but I found them that way as I did not buy any BS they were trying to sell. Hays called me in for a role,giving me there sales pitch, so I flipped the interview on the hays agent,asked her about products and policies,and she couldn't answer any questions about my profession. They see words on cvs,match them to job specs,that's it.they consider themselves HR specialist,but they're 100% sales. Had a lady, from Grafton called me, quoting me 26K for some job,the same company had advertised the job as well,pure chance called me too,went for interview, the job was worth 32K,with room to negotiate. Just shows you the cut they can get. Next gen are a joke, absolute cowboys.they will do anything for a sale. Square peggs round holes. Some of the stuff they'd send to you, got an email today about a job in pensions. I work in IT, dunno were they get it from. Said this to the girl over the phone and she pretty much explained there sales technique.wouldn't recommend recruitment to anyone!!

micromary

benzy00 wrote: »

Next generation recruiters, by far and away the worst I've dealt with.

In a industry full of muppets you are right. They are the worst. No common sense whatsoever. They ring at the most stupid times of the day sometimes several times a day even though you tell them you are at work.

DanielODonnell

Why do these crooks never give the name of the company in their adverts? it is always something like "our client is looking for new employees" and even when you ask them they never want to give the name out.

ButtersSuki

DanielODonnell wrote: »

Why do these crooks never give the name of the company in their adverts? it is always something like "our client is looking for new employees" and even when you ask them they never want to give the name out.

Well in fairness if they did people would just go to the company directly and cut out the middle man. I can totally understand this.

donkey balls

They also hide the identity of their customer due to other agencies probably trying to muscle in on their client,I worked in the transport& aviation industry which is huge but everyone knows each other.
Even with the adverts for jobs and the specs and location giving I use to be able to tell the agency who the company was:P

Andalucia

Mark Sattin recruitment - some crowd of muppets, a few years ago I wasted a few hours of my life meeting one of their consultants for a job I was ideally suited to in their words, heard no more about if after our meeting

Got the token follow up call from them last yr, asked them to delete my details from their database, got a further call from another one of their consultants a month later, referred to my previous request to them and asked them not to contact me

Blocked their number anyway, but still get the voicemail from blocked numbers - lo and behold, another message from them last week - thinking now I will make an official complaint to the data protection commissioner about them, no right to maintain my personal data when I have requested them to delete same

on_my_oe

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Well in fairness if they did people would just go to the company directly and cut out the middle man. I can totally understand this.

Im interviewing with a number of agencies at the moment, and they all want to know what roles the other agencies are putting me forward for. I'm happy to give a brief overview but I wont give the company names - almost all of the agencies have been very pushy. Some claim "Its so we don't put you forward twice", but its just shallow diving to poach the clients with zero concern for the candidates. I only confirm a name if an agency says "Can we put you forward for XYZ company", and I will say "Another agency has already sent it through".

An example, I spoke to three agencies about a role. The employer is niche, so I could identify another three claiming to advertise the role. I don't believe six agencies were all recruiting for the role but they were 1) hoping to get a 'star' CV to push their way to the top of the queue or 2) using the 'role' to cat fish for candidate CVs

ButtersSuki

on_my_oe wrote: »

Im interviewing with a number of agencies at the moment, and they all want to know what roles the other agencies are putting me forward for. I'm happy to give a brief overview but I wont give the company names - almost all of the agencies have been very pushy. Some claim "Its so we don't put you forward twice", but its just shallow diving to poach the clients with zero concern for the candidates. I only confirm a name if an agency says "Can we put you forward for XYZ company", and I will say "Another agency has already sent it through".

An example, I spoke to three agencies about a role. The employer is niche, so I could identify another three claiming to advertise the role. I don't believe six agencies were all recruiting for the role but they were 1) hoping to get a 'star' CV to push their way to the top of the queue or 2) using the 'role' to cat fish for candidate CVs

I wasn't and am not excusing the type of behaviour you mention (I've been on the receiving end of that myself - to call it annoying would be an understatement), but I do understand why they won't name the company in some cases.

Ilyana 2.0

ButtersSuki wrote: »

I wasn't and am not excusing the type of behaviour you mention (I've been on the receiving end of that myself - to call it annoying would be an understatement), but I do understand why they won't name the company in some cases.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but sometimes it's because there's still someone in the role, but they're getting the boot in the near future.

My rant: when I submit my CV to an agency and specify which location I'm interested in, I don't exactly want to be contacted about roles in entirely different places...

the_syco

Andalucia wrote: »

Blocked their number anyway, but still get the voicemail from blocked numbers - lo and behold, another message from them last week - thinking now I will make an official complaint to the data protection commissioner about them, no right to maintain my personal data when I have requested them to delete same

Let us know how you get on with this. I'm sure several people will be reporting the usual suspects if you are successful.

gambit83

the_syco wrote: »

Let us know how you get on with this. I'm sure several people will be reporting the usual suspects if you are successful.

likewise, be interested to know the outcome