Planning application, shadow and neighbour - can't architect help?

NextSteps

We're extending our terraced house at the moment. The neighbour wants to know how much shadow the proposed 2-storey plus attic extension will cast on her house and garden. Fair enough.

I asked my architect (who isn't very helpful) if there is any way this could be worked out on paper or computer, given that we know the exact plans, elevations and orientations. He says there isn't and what we have to do is to get the builder to put up timber posts and a canvas to show the outline of the extension (all the way to the roof).

Surely there's an easier way to do this? Does anyone have any ideas?

Johnniep

UB wrote:

I asked my architect (who isn't very helpful) if there is any way this could be worked out on paper or computer, given that we know the exact plans, elevations and orientations. He says there isn't and what we have to do is to get the builder to put up timber posts and a canvas to show the outline of the extension (all the way to the roof).

Wow! Your Architect is really earning his fee there!!!! :rolleyes:

There are a few ways to do this, one is by using some very crude maths, but also, a 3d image of the extension could be generated and this would give a very accurate idea of what shadows would be cast.

The method recommended by your Architect will only be representative of the shadow cast that day. As you know, the angle of the sun changes from season to season so the outline today won’t be the same in 3 months time.

NextSteps

Johnniep wrote:

The method recommended by your Architect will only be representative of the shadow cast that day. As you know, the angle of the sun changes from season to season so the outline today won’t be the same in 3 months time.

Yeah, plus, being November, it's going to look pretty bad!

davidoco

Since you live in a terraced house, which I presume, is relatively straight forward you could download Sketchup from Google and use the shadow feature.

If you want to pm me with either a picture of your house and some basic measurements (height of external walls, height of roof apex, width of building, etc) and I will make a DIY attempt at it for you. You could then download Google Sketchup and invite neighbours in to view how it would look at certain times of the day. Or just print out a 3d picture of where the shadow will be at certain times of the day then. Problem is neighbour may not accept it.

see bad quick example of sketchup attached

Johnniep

davidoco wrote:

Since you live in a terraced house, which I presume, is relatively straight forward you could download Sketchup from Google and use the shadow feature.

Great piece of kit, started using it more and more. The shadow feature is quiet handy too. More for illustrative viewing only though. Not sure how accurate it would be but would give a pretty good indication.

NextSteps

davidoco wrote:

If you want to pm me with either a picture of your house and some basic measurements (height of external walls, height of roof apex, width of building, etc) and I will make a DIY attempt at it for you.

David, that's very kind of you, but I just rang an architect-friend who's going to do the same thing for me, on CAD I think. That should win over the neighbours!

Mellor

UB wrote:

I asked my architect (who isn't very helpful) if there is any way this could be worked out on paper or computer, given that we know the exact plans, elevations and orientations. He says there isn't

Wow. He actually said that. I'd be very worried about him. I know architects don't deal with CAD as much as Architectural technicians, but he should of been aware that it is possible. At least 4 programs can do it, and I know he'd have at leat two in his office.

davidoco wrote:

Since you live in a terraced house, which I presume, is relatively straight forward you could download Sketchup from Google and use the shadow feature.

Thats a good suggestion in terms of speed as sketch-up gives good results fast. But the shadow feature gives pretty shadows, not accurate ones. You can adjust the time and date in sketch up, but orientation is its downfall.
And the orientation makes a big difference.

To the OP, I was going to suggest i'd do a 3D cad model for you, but it looks like you are sorted. Out of curiosity, which way is your terrace orientated, as this was the reason my parents never went ahead with there 2 story extenson.

NextSteps

Mellor wrote:

Out of curiosity, which way is your terrace orientated, as this was the reason my parents never went ahead with there 2 story extenson.

The back of the house faces southwest, so it should make for a really sunny extension and patio. Just worried about the neighbours on the north side as they might be affected. I think it'll only be their bathroom window, though.

Thanks for all the help!

tapest

Hi U B
Isn't it great, Isn't it grand...thats was a song intro wasn't it (lol, night shift/old age combination)
Seriously, nice to see neighbours getting on so well toghther ( recently had the Gardái and the Council on to me for not much more than a match stick out of place)...different strokes for different folks, I expect.
Nice to see you so considerate of your neighbour's needs and / or concerns. Full marks, you are a credit to civilised mankind and I applaud you.....BUT, If the boot was on the other foot, would they be so considerate??..I know you wanna be nice, you want to keep good neighbours....but you also want your extention and you want your 2 stories. Surely the Council will stop you from blocking too much light.
Producing test results on paper might prevent them from putting in an objection, but it might also encourage them. I'd advise minimising the effect as far as possible. From my recent past/current experience...time to be a little selfish.
By giving them a sketch, you may be handing them a rifle and loading it for them. And if you get planning permission are you going to allow them to interfere with works ?....in the interest of good neighbourliness of course
t

NextSteps

tapest wrote:

Nice to see you so considerate of your neighbour's needs and / or concerns. Full marks, you are a credit to civilised mankind and I applaud you.....BUT, If the boot was on the other foot, would they be so considerate??..I know you wanna be nice, you want to keep good neighbours....but you also want your extention and you want your 2 stories. Surely the Council will stop you from blocking too much light.
t

My attitude is that we plan to be in this house for a long time, the neighbours look like they do too, it's a close-knit area (rare in Dublin) and trouble with your neighbours can be hellish.

Plus we have to ask them for access to their garden for plastering, etc., so we need to keep them on side.

Mind you, we do want the extension, so I'm trying to make them feel like they've been asked, but at the same time the application's going in anyway. I doubt light would be a problem for the council. It won't block that much at all. We'll see!

If anyone has any Machiavellian suggestions of how to sweeten them up, I'd love to hear them...

Johnniep

UB wrote:

If anyone has any Machiavellian suggestions of how to sweeten them up, I'd love to hear them...

Not quiet Machiavellian, but I have found that if you are building up tight against the boundary wall, if you offer you neighbour to design your new foundations along the boundary wall in a way that the neighbour could use them for any possible future development that they may carry out. This also helps you in that offset footings are not required! So both parties win but you could "spin" it in such a way that the neighbour feels they are getting som'it for nothing

tapest

UB wrote:

Plus we have to ask them for access to their garden for plastering, etc., so we need to keep them on side.

.

OH NO YOU DON'T.
Just in case i managr to start ww3 between yourself and your neighbour, you should note the following:
a) if they refuse access for plastering,( and there has been a court case over exactly this near me...I don't know the exact outcome but the wall in question is now plastered / rendered), don't forget they have to look at the eyesore daily, you won't.
b) depending on the wall construction ( twin leaf or cavity etc) the finish on their side could be red brick, architectural(spelling?) block etc, which don't need to be rendered. Worth keeping in mind

And as for good tight knit neighbours....I've been here nearly 40 yrs. and was always obliging, willing to lend a hand etc never did a nixer onl;y "thank-you" jobs. And the first time I make noise late(10pm) trying to finish a garage re-roof, ie make it weather proof, I get jumped on from a great height. So I have found that all your good neighbours support the idea of good neighbours so long as you're the good neighbour.
So be a good neighbour...when it suits you and after that bu**er them. If you get a rep as being a bad neighbour they'll be afraid to approach you
Cynically
t

t

Mellor

UB wrote:

I doubt light would be a problem for the council. It won't block that much at all. We'll see!

Actually light can be a problem. It depends on how old the house is. After a certain time, you have a right to light. how old is the house?

If you face directly south west, you will block in the morning to the north side. Evening should be ok, but at this time of year it will be worse due to the the low winter sun.

NextSteps

Mellor wrote:

how old is the house?

late 1920s, so about 75 years old. Do you think I might have a problem? Other neighbours have done the same thing, but their house is at the end of the terrace, and not overshadowing anyone, so perhaps it doesn't set a precedent.

davidoco

I bet the person with the 2 story extension is on the north west end and the extension is on the extreme right and therefore not causing any shadows on their neighbour to the left.

Use their extension to gauge how much sun is blocked. Bad time of year for doing it really but you'll will get the idea.