guilt

LegacyUser

it only really dawned on me recently when ive been thinking back. its been really upsetting for me for some reason over the last few days.


three years ago my girlfriend and i had unprotected sex. about a week later she realised her period was late and got worried. when she worried she went and got a pregnancy test done. we realiesd at this stage that she was pregnant. she was only 16 and i was only 17 and we didn't know what to do. i come from a very very strict catholic family and if my mother and father knew that i had got a girl pregnant with out having marring her they would have killed me.

we looked at our options. we could have had the child or we could try get an abortion. there was no easy way out so we chose the lesser of two evils and decided to have the baby. my parents were more likely to forgive me if i was a father before marriage rather than someone who gave the go ahead for an abortion. my girlfriend wanted abortion and she really really didnt want to have the baby but abortion wasnt even an issue for me. i wouldnt let her do it. i couldn't. besides we didnt even know the first thing about abortion or where to go. there were so many nights she cried herself to sleep because she didnt want to go through with it all. i feel really guilty because this would lead eventually to her death. i forced her to do something she really really really didnt want to do which killed her. she and the baby died while she was giving birth. it took me almost a year to get over the loss, but at the same time i was relieved that im now not a father.


i feel like a murderer. a cold blooded killer. why is it only now ive realised she didn't want it now? we were so stressed by the whole ordeal that there was so little time for emotions and stuff. i feel so bad. but ive only started feeling bad recently. before it didnt really hit me at all.

Black Swan

Your post blew me away. I can really empathise with your situation. You are not a murderer. Women sometimes die in childbirth. It used to be more common before medical science reduced maturnal mortality rates. But it still happens, and it's not your fault. If you want to chat about this in confidence, PM me.

CathyMoran

Wow, your post blew me away too. You are not to blame for her or your child's death and in the end of the day she could have always gone ahead with the abortion by herself if she really wanted to. Please stop feeling guilty but do get councelling.

Dan133269

There is no way on earth you should blame yourself for what happened, you made the right decision in wanting to have the baby and if you had taken the other option i.e. abortion, then you might have been a killer in some people's eyes but you didn't to that.
As BlueLagoon said, unfortunately this happens and it's just one of those terribly inexplicable happenings in life, your gf or your baby did not deserve to die but you have to realize that you should not feel guilty about it.

turbot

It sounds like you did the best thing you could have, and you have to realise this.

I encourage you to get some professional help about this because someone needs to explain and convince you that you are not a murderer, and nothing close.

Rb

Wow...just wow...

bad_man wrote:

i forced her to do something she really really really didnt want to do which killed her

Indeed you did, however you are not responsible for the deaths, there was absolutely no way of knowing it was going to happen. It occasionally happens with childbirth and as unfortunate as it is, theres no way of foreseeing it (afaik) happening.

As others have said above, go seek professional help.
Best of luck.

Dan133269 wrote:

you made the right decision in wanting to have the baby

That sentence in itself is so debatable it would need its own thread.

Miss Fluff

My heart really does go out to you. You were both very young and did what seemed right at the time. Do not however blame yourself. As other posters have said however it's really important you go and discuss this with a professional. This is too big a worry to bottle up, it will consume you otherwise. You are not a bad person and could not have known that it would end so tragically.

LegacyUser

'Hey OP,\r\nYou can\'t beat yourself up over a decision you made - you did what you though was right...your g\'f dying was not as a result of your decision of have the baby.\r\nHaving an abortion can be risky health wise too...it was a no-win situ and you called it one way - the way you saw it best.\r\n\r\nI was married and in a similar situation. My wife unexpectedly found herself pregnant. we were both stunned but I decided that we should have the baby (we already had one) but she was adamant that she didn\'t want another kid. she went and had an abortion - it was kinda hard to stop her.\r\n\r\nanyway when she came back we tried to patch things up but we never did - I was consumed with anger, guilt - now we\'ve split.\r\nso going the other way mightn\'t have solved issues either.\r\n\r\nmaybe you should see somebody who deals with bereavement'

ClockWorkOrange

bad_man wrote:

i wouldnt let her do it.

Technically it is your fault, i would have let her have an abortion, to hell with what the family would think...

Moojuice

ClockWorkOrange, STFU, if you are not taking the poster seriously then refrain from unhelpful, flippant remarks.

OP, its not your fault that they died. The only thing that you had influence on was if she had the baby or not. I think you did the right thing in asking her to not have an abortion. The only thing you have to feel in anyway guilty, if at all, about is not accepting her side of the argument about abortion, as it would seem that you might not have considered her point of view fully. HOWEVER I am not privy to the complete story so I am basing this only on what you have posted. Regardless of any of this you were not reasponsible for her death.

I can understand you feeling saddness for losing her and the baby, but it was not your fault, you were not delivering the baby, you were not carrying out any medical procedure on her.

The fact that you did not know were to go for information or who to turn to in this difficult situation is shocking and shows how far we have to go as a society. It should have been easy for you both to find out, confidently, about all the options open to you, adoption, abortion, rasing the child etc.

free2fly

OMG! That is so tragic OP. It must have been horrible for you. But you are no way a murderer or a bad person. You were young and did what you thought was best.

And I do agree that you need to talk to a professional about this before it eats you up inside. Stop blaming yourself. You need to grieve and then move forward with your life.

Rb

Moojuice wrote:

I think you did the right thing in asking her to not have an abortion

From what I can ascertain from the OP, there wasn't "asking" involved.

Moojuice wrote:

The fact that you did not know were to go for information or who to turn to in this difficult situation is shocking and shows how far we have to go as a society. It should have been easy for you both to find out, confidently, about all the options open to you, adoption, abortion, rasing the child etc.

Oh come on ffs, it was three years ago, not thirty.

As far as I'm concerned, he was extremely wrong to force her to go through with the pregnancy, to ignore the obvious signs that she didn't want the child, to ignore her when she said she wanted an abortion..EXTREMELY.

The only reason I say this is because I can't sit here and watch people say "I think you did the right thing" when its blatantly clear that he did not. An awful lot of arguments could be brought into this, which need not be for the time being.

The only thing that can really be said that what he did, i.e forcing her to go through with it was the only wrong hes done, but that hes not responsible for the events that occured as there was no way to foresee what was going to happen. Noone knew it would happen, and it happens to so few that there was no way of expecting it. I'd say go to the GP and get a referral and go talk to a professional. They're the only ones who'll really be able to help.

pbsuxok1znja4r

rb_ie wrote:

From what I can ascertain from the OP, there wasn't "asking" involved.

As far as I'm concerned, he was extremely wrong to force her to go through with the pregnancy, to ignore the obvious signs that she didn't want the child, to ignore her when she said she wanted an abortion..EXTREMELY.

The only reason I say this is because I can't sit here and watch people say "I think you did the right thing" when its blatantly clear that he did not.

Haha you're talking BS. If she wanted it badly enough she could have gotten the abortion. He wasn't holding her against her will. He was putting some pressure on her, sure, in that it's what he wanted her to do, but "force" her? No. That's bollocks. She could have dumped him and gone to get an abortion anytime she wanted.

wrote:

An awful lot of arguments could be brought into this, which need not be for the time being.

Well you just brought them in, TBH.

Moojuice

rb_ie wrote:

Oh come on ffs, it was three years ago, not thirty.

Exactly. It was 3 years ago not thirty thats why its a disgrace. Neither should have been put into the position they were in. If they had have been better informed then he might have agreed to the abortion or she might have agreed (unforcably) to have the baby. I am all for the right to choose and it does seem that he put a lot of preasure on her but they were young, knew no better and had no one to turn to. I agree somewhat with scouser tommy that she could have gone and had an abortion but how would she have found out about it? I feel sorry for all involved and perhaps it could have been different if they had access to proper, impartial information.

Drift

I think the responses in this thread should be kept specific to the OPs problem. The thread is turning into a discussion on abortion. I've seen this happen on a number of boards over the years and they never go anywhere. You're not going to change peoples mind regarding abortion on an internet discussion board.

So can we please stick to helping the OP. OP you were NOT responsible for their deaths, we can tell you this but it has no weight. I think you should discuss it with your familty and/or with a professional and they will tell you the same thing.

LegacyUser

How does a healthy 16 year old girl die giving birth, I'm sure that its extremely rare for anyone to die giving birth these days (sorry to be suspicious of the OPs story)

Froot

I do not believe you are directly to blame. I do however think that you wanting her to have the baby, when she did not, completely unnacceptable. You can do a post mortem all you want but you and I know it wont really achieve much. As far as I can see legally your completely free of blame. Personally I think that morally you are not, but thats on your head and is not really something anyone can help you with.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Moojuice wrote:

Neither should have been put into the position they were in.

They were teenagers who had unprotected sex. They werent exactly forced to do it. They were stupid and ended up with a worst case scenario.

One wanted the baby, the other did not. Yes she could have made her own decision to not have the baby but then again you didnt have to go guns blazing over your family.

For the record I have been in the exact same situation.

They created the entire situation.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Moojuice wrote:

ClockWorkOrange, STFU, if you are not taking the poster seriously then refrain from unhelpful, flippant remarks.

I find that CWO's post was equally as helpful and relevant as anybody elses post. Dont tell somebody to STFU just because they disagree with you. It is not necessary.

If the user wanted purely complimentary posts he should rename the thread to "sympathy here please" instead of what it is.

Nevyn

eddie93 wrote:

How does a healthy 16 year old girl die giving birth, I'm sure that its extremely rare for anyone to die giving birth these days (sorry to be suspicious of the OPs story)

While a 16 year old may be sexually mature enough to get pregnant thier bodies are not full developed into that of a woman and for the most part not ready to carry a child to term and give birth.

A womans body is not fully mature until she reaches 21/22 and there is always a risk with childbirth it happens.

Op you need to get your self some Bereavement Counselling deal with your losses and your guilt.
http://www.bereavementireland.org/

muppetkiller

I think Drift is right here ... The OP will feel guilty no matter what. I think you'd also feel just as guilty if the abortion had gone ahead especially with his religious background. It all depends where you stand I guess with regard to Fate.

You are not responsible for their deaths. Nobody is ...life isn't simple like that.
If anything the natural events had taken place ie she was pregnant and was going to have a baby. If you had been in love and wanted the baby the same could have/would have happened.

The Abortion would not have been a natural thing to happen.
You were aware that deciding to abort the baby would have resulted in the death of the child.
You were not aware and could never be aware that the birth of the baby would result in both of their deaths.
Your not to blame
Try and see the distinction.

Victor

Can people tone things down please?

---

OP, abortion carries a similar order of risk to the mother as childbirth. The path chosen neither increased nor decreased the likelyhood of a tragic result.

The maternal mortality rate for Ireland is 4 per 100,000 births (Source: World Health Statisitics 2006). Thats about 2 per year.

eddie93 wrote:

How does a healthy 16 year old girl die giving birth, I'm sure that its extremely rare for anyone to die giving birth these days (sorry to be suspicious of the OPs story)

Loss of blood and infections are the leading causes. In the recent case of a Jehovah's Witness in the Coombe, where the hospital sought a court order to give a blood transfusion, the mother had lost something like 80% of her blood.

Rb

scouser.tommy wrote:

Haha you're talking BS. If she wanted it badly enough she could have gotten the abortion.

He may not have been physically holding her against her will, but the pressure he was applying may have mentally held her, which is quite possible especially considering it was a 16 year old girl.

Moojuice wrote:

Neither should have been put into the position they were in.

How so?They were 17 and 16, both would be fully aware what can happen when you have unprotected sex and by doing so, they accepted the possibility that she may get pregnant. They put themselves in that position and it was certainly not due to a lack of information.

Moojuice wrote:

If they had have been better informed then he might have agreed to the abortion or she might have agreed (unforcably) to have the baby. I am all for the right to choose and it does seem that he put a lot of preasure on her but they were young, knew no better and had no one to turn to. I agree somewhat with scouser tommy that she could have gone and had an abortion but how would she have found out about it? I feel sorry for all involved and perhaps it could have been different if they had access to proper, impartial information.

3 years ago, I was 17. The same age as the OP, yet somehow I (as well as everyone I knew) was aware of the options that came with unplanned pregnancy. A friend even went and had an abortion that year. Perhaps we may not have known the exact details of where to get an abortion, but we knew the options available and I think 99% of people would know to go to their/a GP who would most certainly know the details of how to go about the option we choose, or at the very least provide us with more any additional information we may need to help us make a choice.
Also, the Internet isn't a new thing and it definately wasn't 3 years ago either, everyone knows you can get information on absolutely anything on the Internet, so I really don't take a lack of information or knew no better and had noone to turn to as a credible reason.

Victor wrote:

Can people tone things down please?

No problem

tbh

OP, I'm sorry for your troubles. Look, imagine you wanted to go out, and your g/f didn't - you kinda forced her into going out, and on the way, your car crashed and she died. Will you feel guilty? of course. Was it your fault? No.

I agree with the majority of posters - you will not resolve this without professional help.

Oriel

bad_man wrote:

she and the baby died while she was giving birth...but at the same time i was relieved that im now not a father.

WTF? This bit sounds like either a Troll or an evil ****er.

Nevyn

sinecurea, unhelpful and off-topic posting will get you banned from this forum.
Do take time to read the charter which contains the rules and abide by them.

Next person who post off topic or who says this is a troll or tries to turn this into an abortion debate/right to life
will get banned from this forum.

If you have an issue iwth a post used the report post button.

Is that perfectly clear ?


Thaedydal

Drift

tbh wrote:

imagine you wanted to go out, and your g/f didn't - you kinda forced her into going out, and on the way, your car crashed and she died. Will you feel guilty? of course. Was it your fault? No.

Although it trivialises the issue a bit I think thats a really good comparison.

Faith

rb_ie wrote:

As far as I'm concerned, he was extremely wrong to force her to go through with the pregnancy, to ignore the obvious signs that she didn't want the child, to ignore her when she said she wanted an abortion..EXTREMELY.

The only reason I say this is because I can't sit here and watch people say "I think you did the right thing" when its blatantly clear that he did not. An awful lot of arguments could be brought into this, which need not be for the time being.

The only thing that can really be said that what he did, i.e forcing her to go through with it was the only wrong hes done, but that hes not responsible for the events that occured as there was no way to foresee what was going to happen. Noone knew it would happen, and it happens to so few that there was no way of expecting it. I'd say go to the GP and get a referral and go talk to a professional. They're the only ones who'll really be able to help.

I have to say, I agree with rb_ie on this. Yes, the girl could have had the abortion if she'd really wanted it, but it's a hard enough decision to make at the best of times, even worse when somebody is trying to stop you.

OP, you're not a murderer. You need professional help to work through this. You will feel guilty, probably forever in some part of your mind, but you need help to work through it now. There is blame to be laid, but there's no point in laying it three years down the line. You were not responsible for your girlfriend or baby dying, and it is natural to be feel some relief that you are not a father.

The Sweeper

bad_man wrote:

it only really dawned on me recently when ive been thinking back. its been really upsetting for me for some reason over the last few days.

three years ago my girlfriend and i had unprotected sex. about a week later she realised her period was late and got worried. when she worried she went and got a pregnancy test done. we realiesd at this stage that she was pregnant. she was only 16 and i was only 17 and we didn't know what to do. i come from a very very strict catholic family and if my mother and father knew that i had got a girl pregnant with out having marring her they would have killed me.

we looked at our options. we could have had the child or we could try get an abortion. there was no easy way out so we chose the lesser of two evils and decided to have the baby. my parents were more likely to forgive me if i was a father before marriage rather than someone who gave the go ahead for an abortion. my girlfriend wanted abortion and she really really didnt want to have the baby but abortion wasnt even an issue for me. i wouldnt let her do it. i couldn't. besides we didnt even know the first thing about abortion or where to go. there were so many nights she cried herself to sleep because she didnt want to go through with it all. i feel really guilty because this would lead eventually to her death. i forced her to do something she really really really didnt want to do which killed her. she and the baby died while she was giving birth. it took me almost a year to get over the loss, but at the same time i was relieved that im now not a father.

i feel like a murderer. a cold blooded killer. why is it only now ive realised she didn't want it now? we were so stressed by the whole ordeal that there was so little time for emotions and stuff. i feel so bad. but ive only started feeling bad recently. before it didnt really hit me at all.

OP, if you were 17 then, you're 20 now, so you're an adult.

I can't answer why this has started bothering you now, in particular, but part of it could be because of your growing maturity.

It is not your fault that your pregnant girlfriend died giving birth. There was nothing you could do, taking that process as a standalone event, to prevent her death. Assuming she was in a hospital and/or under professional medical care, she was precisely where she should have been.

HOWEVER.

It is very important that you understand that you are responsible for the actions that you take, the paths that you follow and the advice you offer to others.

It would be ridiculous to accuse you of murdering your deceased girlfriend because you 'made her' have her baby. If someone were to say that you should have let her have an abortion, they would be as well to say that you shouldn't have had sex with her so young in the first place, and you certainly shouldn't have had unprotected sex. In fact, taking it to its extreme, we could suggest you never should have had a relationship with her at all, or even that you shouldn't leave the house lest you get hit by a bus.

Hindsight allows for 20/20 vision.

Understand this: your late girlfriend's death weighs heavily on your conscience because you know that the circumstances leading to her death were heavily influenced by your advice, your opinion, your beliefs on abortion and the pressure you laid, intentional or otherwise, upon her to have your child and not abort the pregnancy.

Accept your responsibility as far as it goes - you entered an adult relationship with the mind of an adolescent, you fathered a child, you allowed your concern of what others would think of you govern your decisions, and you made choices based on fear of what your parents might say.

If you believe abortion is wrong, have the decency to support that belief even in the face of this loss. If you are old and wise enough to be having sex and fathering a child, take responsibility for that end to end process.

If your girlfriend and your child had lived, you might have been a wonderful father. Your girlfriend might have been a wonderful mother. You might have had a wonderful life.

You never got the chance.

Personally I believe your guilt is evidence that you're not a cold-blooded killer. But get help for it, before it overwhelms you, and you start inflicting it on other people, or blaming them, or dragging it into future relationships, or living life weighed down by it as a millstone around your neck.

There is no condemnation in wishing things were other than they are.

Beruthiel

bad_man wrote:

i feel like a murderer. a cold blooded killer. why is it only now ive realised she didn't want it now?

When we are 16/17 we think we know what we are doing, we think we know everything. Years later we look back and see nothing but innocence and naiveity.
You cannot give yourself a hard time for the way you thought back then. You were young, you did what you thought was right at the time. The fact that it all went so terribly wrong is something you could never have known, if you had, you would have done things differently.
None of us can predict the future. That is the risk of life.

This is not going to go away until you come to terms with what transpired, you need professional help. Get it as soon as you can.

dr.bollocko

In a situation like that, you are going to need to take a step back from your situation to get any clarity and get rid of this latent guilt feeling you are having. However while you are feeling this guilty and panicked, you will not be able to see any calm rational truths through the eyes of another less involved person. This may be why people are asking you to seek professional help, to ease the burden of this from your shoulders and allow you to live with it.

embee

OP,

If both your partner and the baby died in childbirth, its not your fault. Sure, she may have wanted an abortion, but honestly, do you really think that, if it wasn't right for her to have the child, that she'd have done what you "told" her to do? I can only speak from my own point of view but, if it were me, and I'd wanted an abortion, no amount of persuasion from my boyfriend would have convinced me otherwise.

You are not to blame for her death in any way whatsoever. I do think that you could benefit from counselling of some sort though. Carrying around this burden of guilt that you are feeling will only eat away at you and it will destroy you if you do not seek help.

Best of luck.

Diogenes

OP, I don't think there's any point trying to second guess what you should or should not have done.

You were a boy making a man's decision, and neither one of of you could have forseen the consequences of your actions. You did not force her to have the child.

However the fact that this has taken years for it to surface suggests that you have buried the pain, trauma, and guilt (I'm not saying you deserve to feel guilty, I'm saying guilt is a natural reaction to this situation). You're probably in more pain than you realise. Talk to a councillor, or a therapist, develop a trust and explore this, you really desperately need to, if these feelings took years to surface.

LegacyUser

'OP there are plenty of risks associated with having an abortion too.\r\n\r\nSee here: http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_27.asp#But%20were%20illegal%20abortion%20deaths%20reported%20accurately?%20Before%20legalization?\r\n

But isn’t abortion safer than childbirth?\r\n\r\nPro-abortion people commonly say that it is. \"Maternal mortality\" is listed as deaths of women per 100,000 pregnancies. This figure has been commonly listed as eleven, compared to deaths from induced abortion, which are listed as one or two. Therefore, they say abortion is seven times safer. Not so! Maternal mortality, in recent years, has dropped to seven, not eleven.\r\n\r\nBut more important is the fact that, included in maternal mortality, are all deaths from induced abortions and ectopic pregnancies. Included also in maternal mortality are all women who die while pregnant from almost any cause that is in any way related to pregnancy. Different states require longer or shorter lengths of post-partum time, but, typically, maternal mortality also includes any related death within one year after delivery.\r\n\r\nMaternal mortality also includes deaths from caesarean section. To compare comparable risks, one would have to compare the risk of being pregnant in the first three months with the risk of having an abortion within the first three months. When compared in this fashion, abortion is many times more dangerous. Actually, it is probable that induced abortion is more dangerous than carrying a baby to term.

'