Lengthy delays spell the end for 1,000-job retail centre plan

Bards

Could this happen here in relation to the Brewry Development?



Article from Today's (8th November) Independent
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A RETAIL project which had promised to bring 1,000 jobs to Dundalk has been cancelled because planning delays allowed a rival shopping centre in the North to be built more quickly.

The developers of the Ballymac Retail Park near the town face a loss of up to €20m and have vowed never to work here again.

"We've spent eight years on that site and we've now lost a fortune on it. We will not go back to Ireland again. I'd rather develop in Eastern Europe because at least I know what's going to happen and where it's going to happen," said Billy McKinney of RJ McKinney Ltd, which backed the project along with British developer ING Real Estates.

The €60m project was approved by an Bord Pleanala in 2004, but delayed for two years by judicial review proceedings. This allowed a rival project, Bridgewater Park in Banbridge, Co Down to race ahead.

"We were so far behind the ball, it was just too risky and it was cheaper for ING to pull out now than have a fully built building with only half the tenants they needed," Mr McKinney said.

The project had been in a good location, he insisted. He was was "incensed" by the fact that it was not going ahead.

"There's 1,000 jobs that should have been in Dundalk. The reason that's happened is because the planning system is in a mess."

An Bord Pleanala would not comment on the case.The two objectors who initiated the judicial review proceedings were Desmond Mulholland, a small shopkeeper in Dundalk, and Donal Kinsella, who had unsuccessfully tried five times to have a large site rezoned for retail use in Dunleer, Co Louth.

Dundalk Chamber of Commerce chief executive Bill Tosh said it was very disappointing. "The whole appeals process, it would make you lose the will to live." He said there were hopes the site might be used for a major adventure park, including ski slopes.

Roen

Bards wrote:

Could this happen here in relation to the Brewry Development?

I don't know the specifics of the case in Dundalk but it sounds like it was a greenfield site. Here in Waterford it's an existing city center we're dealing with.

I certainly hope a large portion of the city won't be left lie fallow for several years, but to answer your question, yes I do think there's a chance that it may happen here.

ToxicPaddy

Of course there is a chance that it would happen here with the way certain individuals who believe that they are the self appointed voice of the city and object to everything going.

However as Roen said, without knowing the specifics, its hard to know.

Dundalk is in a difficult position where Newry is just up the road and offers a large variety of shopping to everyone at usually cheaper prices even with the exchange value of sterling and then there is Dublin less than an hour down the motorway.

When you compare this to Waterford, which has a larger population in the town and hinterland, the only major town that offers a fairly decent variety of shopping to compete is Kilkenny and on a busy day thats at least an hour away on bad roads.

So yes, it could happen, however I doubt a development the size in Waterford would be struggling to fill the units with the amount of large chain stores that havent established a base here yet, if it was built and I'm sure the developers would see it as a good return on their money with the way Waterford is developing and growing.

Tox

Bards

I reckon it will be 2010 at the earliest before the Brewery development opens that is assuming it overcomes the planning appeals process. The motorway/HQDC to Dublin will be in situ and Kilkenny will only be 20 minutes away, so it will be interesting to see what happens

road_high

As a Kilkenny people I would have to say Kilkenny is probably more 'threatened' (if that's the appropriate term?) by the prospect of a large development in the neighbouring city as against the other way around. Not that I don't welcome development, I would much rather see Waterford develop into it's rightful status as against say Galway or Limerick..
I mean KK is only about half the size and doesn't have the excellent 3rd level facilities (WIT) nor the same range of employers as Waterford; prospective investors in large developments look very closely at such things and are likely thus come out in favour of the bigger city.
There are two very large developments being developed in KK at the moment and I personally question whether they are in proportion to the size of Kilkenny currently; I would hate to see the life being sucked out of the centre of the city. This is less likely in Waterford as this development is located in the city centre. Also Waterford unlike KK already has well developed facilities for shopping and recreation on the outskirts and suburbs, so a city centre development is very desirable to give a people a reason to go into the centre that otherwise might not.

cwat69

these two objectors in dundalk sound similar to mccann and the guy that owns the army shop down here,hopefully our deveolopment goes through,our so called city needs regeneration big time

decies

mfitzy wrote:

As a Kilkenny people I would have to say Kilkenny is probably more 'threatened' (if that's the appropriate term?) by the prospect of a large development in the neighbouring city as against the other way around. Not that I don't welcome development, I would much rather see Waterford develop into it's rightful status as against say Galway or Limerick..
I mean KK is only about half the size and doesn't have the excellent 3rd level facilities (WIT) nor the same range of employers as Waterford; prospective investors in large developments look very closely at such things and are likely thus come out in favour of the bigger city.
There are two very large developments being developed in KK at the moment and I personally question whether they are in proportion to the size of Kilkenny currently; I would hate to see the life being sucked out of the centre of the city. This is less likely in Waterford as this development is located in the city centre. Also Waterford unlike KK already has well developed facilities for shopping and recreation on the outskirts and suburbs, so a city centre development is very desirable to give a people a reason to go into the centre that otherwise might not.

You make very good points there but i would have to say something waterford shoppers are not very loyal to their city,the amount that go to new york,cork,dublin on dedicated shopping trips is unreal,am sure the brewerey development would attract people from the south east to waterford,but as for keeping waterford people shopping here am not convinced!!!!!!!!!

Roen

If you build it they will come

deisemum

decies wrote:

You make very good points there but i would have to say something waterford shoppers are not very loyal to their city,the amount that go to new york,cork,dublin on dedicated shopping trips is unreal,am sure the brewerey development would attract people from the south east to waterford,but as for keeping waterford people shopping here am not convinced!!!!!!!!!

If we had a decent range of shops then those of us who regularly shop in other cities wouldn't have to travel.

Bards

Did anyone get to read yesterday's News & Star. McCann has objected to the development on the Outer-Ring Road and sites that it will lead to a dependendy on car trips (Which we all know of course). So why did he use the argument that when he was trying to block the Brewery Development that he said it was more suited to the suburbs.

Mr McCann, if you are reading this, you cannot have it both ways. You either allow the City to Develop or move back to Galway.:mad:

decies

deisemum wrote:

If we had a decent range of shops then those of us who regularly shop in other cities wouldn't have to travel.

To be fair i dont think we can use that argument anymore especially when talking of the likes of cork, mirror images these days of waterford esp when it comes to the likes of the british shops with the odd exception of course.
Your entitled to shop where you want deisemum,the people will come when new development comes here, just wonder will the trains still be packed out of town,and the flights booked to new york from waterford time will tell,not convinced mind you.Just wonder why so many shops closing down around the town,know a few more in trouble as well that wont be here after xmas

deisemum

One of my favourite shops is Marks & Spencers. One of my children is rugby mad but there is a very limited if any childrens sizes stocked in Waterford. The IRFU supporters club are trying to do something about that. The sooner the better for me anyway. Also some of the shops here (that I like) have a much reduced range than their Cork or Dublin branches.

There are some good shops in Waterford where shopping is a pleasurable experience and shopping in Waterford has come on a lot in recent years but equally there a quiet a number of shops here where customer service is very poor.

In my own circle of friends we have reduced the number of visits to Cork as more of the bigger shops open here. I do think once the development is built the amount of people travelling to other citieswill be less and perhaps not as frequent but I don't think it will be fully eliminated. As the bigger shops have opened here our shopping trips have become more of a social outing with a bit of shopping.

Also when people go to foreign places and shop they too are taking their money from the local area, equally tourists to Waterford bring their money and spend it in Waterford. It's not all a financial drain out of Waterford.

merlante

Nobody has asked why the Dundalk plan didn't go through in 8 years. What was wrong with it? We can't fall into the trap of damning all objectors just because we have a crackpot on our own doorstep.

People will shop in Waterford if Waterford offers as much as other locations. Why wouldn't they? Why would you travel 100 miles just to get the same thing? People travelling to New York will get a better offering, full stop. We can't really compete with New York now can we (we're not Dublin after all! )?

Of course maybe Waterford people would continue to travel to Cork/Dublin just to spite their own city. (If it could happen anywhere...)

AdMMM

Some people go to shop in Dublin not just for the added variety and competitive prices, but also for a change in scenery. Shopping in the same place day-in, day-out can (I imagine) be rather tiresome. Dublin, or any other city in Ireland, offers a new experience for the shopper and serves to be a welcome break. I doubt many people travel 100 miles up the coast every week, but the majority of us would make the journey maybe once or twice a year.

mad man

|.Murderer.| wrote:

Some people go to shop in Dublin not just for the added variety and competitive prices, but also for a change in scenery. Shopping in the same place day-in, day-out can (I imagine) be rather tiresome. Dublin, or any other city in Ireland, offers a new experience for the shopper and serves to be a welcome break. I doubt many people travel 100 miles up the coast every week, but the majority of us would make the journey maybe once or twice a year.

Its true what you are saying but I would say that it is possible that a there is probably as much retail money spent in Dublin,Cork,London,New York etc by Waterford people as in Waterford during the year.A lot of this is a change of scenery as you say but a lot is due to a lack of choice in Waterford.I would say the the financial loss especially around Christmas time is huge.

I know you can by a lot of stuff online now but it isn't the same.For example I know people who would get on the bus just to spend the day browsing in Waterstones and Hodges and Figgis.For someone else it might be M&S or Brown Thomas.The book centre just doesn't cut the mustard in comparison and this is really the only bookstore in town.Likewise we all know people who spend a day or two in Dublin/Cork to get the Christmas shopping out of the way.I have done it myself.

Likewise the main department store (Shaws) is dismal.It may not suit these places to have competetion in the City.That way the can make big bucks without having to reinvest.Look at a place like Heroes in Red Square.It seems to be the be all and end all in Waterford for clothes.I also remember going into USA bargain stores in Michael St one time.They were selling the same tops that cost a tenner in Unique in Dublin as primo gear.For over twice the price.They can do this because there is not enough competition.Waterford should be able to offer the same choice as Cork.Galway can in the west.There is no reason we can do the same in the south east.The population and the business is there.Unfortunately people like BMC are content to let this money go to Dublin or Cork.