Dell customer gets windows refund

hk797

Just read about this - need to get the sis a new laptop - making me think about ordering her a dell just to see if it would work here - anyone else tried this before?

Thomas_S_Hunterson

I hear a bandwagon approaching!, fair play to him for doing it.

Oracle

On the BBC site now too: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6144782.stm

verbatim

Its great to see he got the refund, but realistically, how much is a DELL OEM copy of windows really worth? I know he got 55£, but the reality is that DELL probably only pay 5$ per copy, and if lots of people where to try this, they would drop the amount of the refund to what it actually costs them.

Karoma

Oracle wrote:

On the BBC site now too: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6144782.stm

With inaccuracies.

Here's hoping his hardware works OK with Linux...

generalmiaow

Karoma wrote:

With inaccuracies.

Here's hoping his hardware works OK with Linux...

Hey Karoma, I was wondering what was inaccurate about the article? I couldn't find much. I know in another beeb article I read Ubuntu was called an "application", but I'd be interested to know what was wrong here... since this is an idea I may use myself... if I ever buy another dell laptop

themole

verbatim wrote:

Its great to see he got the refund, but realistically, how much is a DELL OEM copy of windows really worth? I know he got 55£, but the reality is that DELL probably only pay 5$ per copy, and if lots of people where to try this, they would drop the amount of the refund to what it actually costs them.

I came across a similar story a while ago, can't find the ref now, where a guy got a similar refund from a different PC manufacturer.

They tried to tell him that the value of the installed version of windows was around $15, the price they were paying MS. The guy then asked if he could buy 100 copies at $15 each. They declined. The guy then argued that how could they say thats all it was worth if they weren't prepared to sell it to him for this price. In the end he got a refund for the full retail price when the manufacturer failed to turn up to court.

steveland?

They tried to tell him that the value of the installed version of windows was around $15, the price they were paying MS.

Well Dell should be refunding the price they're charging for the operating system and not the value they buy it from MS at.

If it did go as far as the small claims court I'd imagine Dell would have to show what percentage of the final price the operating system costs to the end user buying a machine from Dell.

Wouldn't it be the equivalent of buying a bottle of Coke, bringing it back unopened for a refund and the shop telling you they could only refund you 75c or something because that's how much they buy it in for?

I know sweef F-all about law though...

Karoma

generalmiaow wrote:

Hey Karoma, I was wondering what was inaccurate about the article? I couldn't find much. I know in another beeb article I read Ubuntu was called an "application", but I'd be interested to know what was wrong here... since this is an idea I may use myself... if I ever buy another dell laptop

Just a few things: Costs & that he returned a CD, and one or two things I can't remember now.



steveland?: spot on.
Although, does anyone know the EULA particulars (I'm too lazy these days...)? Is there a clause that says the sticker and software are inseparable? [i.e. Do they have the right to demand that should you refuse to accept the installation of their supplied OS they can demand the entire laptop be returned?]
I must read the MS EULAs, and other bundled software (I'd love to get a refund for some of the other crap supplied with machines.)

themole

Karoma wrote:

I must read the MS EULAs,

Afaik, EULA's are uninforcable anyway.

Anything you don't sign in the presence of a witness is not legally binding.

There are certain exceptions such as entering private property which is signposted with waivers of certain liability.

themole

steveland? wrote:

Well Dell should be refunding the price they're charging for the operating system and not the value they buy it from MS at.

Wouldn't it be the equivalent of buying a bottle of Coke, bringing it back unopened for a refund and the shop telling you they could only refund you 75c or something because that's how much they buy it in for?

Yes and no.

A more accurate analogy may be this. A shop sells:
bottles of coke for €1
crisps for 50c
but also sells a bottle of coke with crisps for €1.25

If you buy the crisps and coke, but want to return just the coke what price are you entitled to?
€1 the price of just the coke
or
75c the price of the combo minus the price of the crisps?

AndrewMc

themole wrote:

Yes and no.

A more accurate analogy may be this. A shop sells:
bottles of coke for €1
crisps for 50c
but also sells a bottle of coke with crisps for €1.25

If you buy the crisps and coke, but want to return just the coke what price are you entitled to?
€1 the price of just the coke
or
75c the price of the combo minus the price of the crisps?

Still not the same. In the case we're dealing with, it's own-brand crisps that can't be bought separately. You've no idea what the crisps cost, but you know the coke is €1 everywhere (at least, everywhere that'll print the price). And to top it off, the coke even says on the label "if you don't like the conditions you can bring the coke back to the shop for a full refund". If the shop won't tell you what the coke costs, I think you're entitled to the €1 unless they prove otherwise. Without a price breakdown, you've a reasonable entitlement to expect the crisps to be worth about 25c.

At least that was the case with previous EULAs, I'm not sure if they've changed the wording. I just avoid buying PCs with Windows pre-installed altogther, although given the state of things, it means I still haven't found myself a laptop.

themole

AndrewMc wrote:

Still not the same. In the case we're dealing with, it's own-brand crisps that can't be bought separately. You've no idea what the crisps cost, but you know the coke is €1 everywhere (at least, everywhere that'll print the price).

I meant the same crisps, so you know their price.

The difficulty in the dell case is they don't disclose the price they pay. That still doesn't mean that you are automatically entitled to the unbundled retail price.

Often the idea of a combo means all or nothing. In the crisps coke example the most likely course of action would be to take back both products and give full refund. They are under no obligation to provide partial refund for part of the product.

Cormic

Now I want Coke and some Crisps

steveland?

themole wrote:

I meant the same crisps, so you know their price.

I think AndrewMc was using the "own brand" crisps as an analogy for the fact that they're selling an "own brand" laptop with something that has a seperate pricetag (the Windows OS).

Whether you can or can't buy the OS (the same OEM version) seperately is irrelevant.

Without a full breakdown of how much the laptop would cost without the OS, if that was offered, and how much the OEM version would cost seperately then they couldn't really offer you a refund of what the OEM OS is worth (cost price). They'd have to prove that the amount of money that they're returning to you is what the OEM version of the OS would cost seperately.

Wow that was rambling...

Oracle

steveland? wrote:

Well Dell should be refunding the price they're charging for the operating system and not the value they buy it from MS at.

If it did go as far as the small claims court I'd imagine Dell would have to show what percentage of the final price the operating system costs to the end user buying a machine from Dell.

I agree with Steveland, it's the average retail price of Windows XP OEM software that should be taken off the price. I've seen a few examples from €90-€140 depending on the version, for example: http://www.komplett.ie/k/kl.asp?bn=10339&sortBy=p&minprice=&maxPrice=

steveland?

Of course, having said that, Dell would also have the rights to demand the entire laptop back.

Sticking with the bottle of Coke and packet of crisps analogy, if you bought the Coke and crisps as a deal together then if you wanted to return just the crisps the shop would be able to demand you return the Coke too as they're priced to sell together.

They could also argue that the guy wanting the return knew what he was ordering when he was ordering it (he could see there was no option to take out the OS). The laptop was priced to sell with the OS so they wouldn't have to refund him just for the OS. They could demand the laptop back off him too and give him the entire sale price back, or just refund him a discounted price of the OS which would be determined by a price structure of what he was buying.

If they could prove that they were selling him the OS in the deal at cost price and the rest of the price was for the laptop then they'd probably be well within their rights to just give him back the price they pay MS for Windows