What one man has done the most harm in the last 25 years to pro. wrestling?

Vince135792003

Taken from a discussion with Meltzer and Alvarez on figure four online radio show. Heres what others said on the board:

Paul Heyman- for fostering an environment where guys have to literally kill themselves for fans to give a **** about them. Also for popularizing a type of wrestling that conditions fans not to care about anything but big bumps, spots, or guys getting their brains scrambled with legit blows to the head.

Vince McMahon - for destroying the territories which is biting his ass right now with the lack of seasoned pros. And for the choices he has made since the 30 secs before the Austin turn at Mania.

Jamie Kellner- the tv exec. that pulled the plug on WCW.

Vince Russo- booked WCW into an oblivion resulting in WWE being the only game in town.

Dana White- the boss of UFC. UFC's rise if it continues could really impact on the overall popularity of professional wrestling in America. In 10 years time, he could be the guy that did the most harm to pro-wrestling.

Dave Meltzer- for "exposing the business".

Others mentioned were Bischoff, Foley, Triple H and Hulk Hogan.

So who do you think?

J.R.HARTLEY

stephanie mcmahon - for choking the life out of the stories rather than admitting shes crap at booking/storylines

Mr.Nice Guy

I would say Russo from a wrestling standpoint. He played a big part in making WWE sleazier (which I blame for today's diva segments such as the strip poker fiasco) and he made WCW a joke by destroying the meaning of their world title by giving it to a B-star celebrity.

I think the WWE place more of an emphasis on the 'E' rather than the middle letter thanks to Vince Russo's influence more than anything.

I watch wrestling for wrestling. If I wanted porn I'd watch porn. If I wanted bad soap storylines I'd watch Fair City.

Give me a damn wrestling match.

Motley Crue

Vince135792003 wrote:

Paul Heyman- for fostering an environment where guys have to literally kill themselves for fans to give a **** about them. Also for popularizing a type of wrestling that conditions fans not to care about anything but big bumps, spots, or guys getting their brains scrambled with legit blows to the head.

I agree, ECW has no place in proper wrestling, its OTT attitude made wrestling more accessible to street brawlers and people who just wanted to cause and feel pain. I know it was just picking up on an Industry based in Japan but theres a reason the Industry took so long to reach American shores, especially considering the effect it has on young children and teenagers through hardcore style moves. ECWs 'Invasion' of Raw in 1997 was the first steps

Vince135792003 wrote:

Vince McMahon - for destroying the territories which is biting his ass right now with the lack of seasoned pros. And for the choices he has made since the 30 secs before the Austin turn at Mania.

McMahon dug his own grave when he rang the bell on the Bret Hart vs. Shawn Michaels match at Survivor Series 97. That year proved to be an extremely influential year for wrestling, it really did!

Gillie

Russo for me.
Bisch did some damage during the Monday night wars. Giving the results away of taped Raw was a low blow!

Vince135792003

I think I would go with Russo too but for the different reasons.

Simply, he was put in charge of WCW at a time when it was still pretty saveable and ran it into the ground.

The death of WCW was bad for the wrestlers, fans and even in a weird way the WWE.

krudler

Motley Crue wrote:

I agree, ECW has no place in proper wrestling, its OTT attitude made wrestling more accessible to street brawlers and people who just wanted to cause and feel pain. I know it was just picking up on an Industry based in Japan but theres a reason the Industry took so long to reach American shores, especially considering the effect it has on young children and teenagers through hardcore style moves. ECWs 'Invasion' of Raw in 1997 was the first steps

what the HELL are you talking about?ECW was the forerunner to the attitude era of the WWE,heyman brought in benoit,guerrero,malenko,rey mysterio and psycosis to the US wrestling scene,it wasnt all chairshots and tables if it werent for heyman there wouldnt have been a cruiserweight division in WCW,remember ECW had some of the best WRESTLING matches of the 90s,when wwe only had the 2 harts and shawn michaels who were proper wrestlers,everyone else on the roster was using crappy gimmicks and having **** matches,and bischoff giving away raws results kickstarted the monday night war,which was the greatest time ever to be a wrestling fan

Vince135792003

I can see the argument about Heyman. ECW embraced alot of things (including great wrestling at times).

But for every Chris Benoit or Lance Storm there was a heavy dose of violence that at the time was really cool but long term is kinda damaging to the art of professional wrestling.

Bret Hart said that the art of professional wrestling was to make it look as real as possible without anybody getting hurt. I agree with that. And alot of times in ECW that theory was lost and at times completely thorn to shreds.

In saying all that I would n't put Heyman anywhere near number 1. For all its negatives, ECW had a lot of positives and I think you have to take that into account.

Charlie

I think in reality there has been no one major culprit. Every person on that list (not including Jamie Kellner) , in my opinion, has contributed both positively and negatively to the business. For instance the point on McMahon, you can argue that the decline of the territorial system has dried up the pool of made stars, however, if he didn't make that move on the territories it is likely we wouldn't of had Hulkamania and wrestlemania which both had a huge impact on the business.

In relation to the point made on Russo, I would have to lay more blame on Bischoff. The contracts he handed to the top stars ended up creating a horrible working atmpsphere in wcw for any one to deal with. Scott Hall said in an interview that once himself and Nash had a falling out with Bischoff they didn't give a **** anymore. They had their guaranteed money so all they had to do was turn up for work but beyond that contribute nothing more. Throw in creative clasues and the fact that Bischoof was friends with some of the bigger stars created a reciped for destruction. While some of Russo's booking was highly questionable, I think he was thrown in to an incredibly difficult working enviornment and made decisions based on the fact that many of the "top stars" weren't really willing to work for him. I still loved it whether it was a shoot or worked shoot that he Stuck it to Hogan at bash at the beach. I only wish that someone had the balls to do it every 6 months when he comes out of "retirement" for "one final dream match".

Vince135792003

charlie mchugh wrote:

While some of Russo's booking was highly questionable, I think he was thrown in to an incredibly difficult working enviornment and made decisions based on the fact that many of the "top stars" weren't really willing to work for him. ".

Highly questionable is being very generous.

Stupid crap is a better description of Russo's booking in WCW. Yes he had a hard job. But he was n't up to it and nothing could excuse some of the **** he came up with. Stick in a tape of WCW 2001 or buy an old obserser to jog your memory of how comically horrible the shows that he booked were.

Jerichoholic

Hulk Hogan for me. He was the reason WCW died to be honest. The guy had built into his contract that he MUST be in the main event for every show. Go back and look at how WCW was just basically a toy for Hogan and a way to get wins back on people he had lost to. He never put anyone over in his life. WCW couldn't create stars with Hogan there. Jericho had to go to WWE to get a break as did Eddie Guerrero. Hogan killed WCW, and then gave Vince the opportunity to not care anymore, and give us the appalling crap he delivers now.

Mr.Nice Guy

Jerichoholic wrote:

Hulk Hogan for me. He was the reason WCW died to be honest.

No, to be honest WCW never would have taken off without Hogan and the NWO.

Jerichoholic wrote:

Go back and look at how WCW was just basically a toy for Hogan and a way to get wins back on people he had lost to. He never put anyone over in his life.

Never hear of Bill Goldberg?

Jerichoholic wrote:

WCW couldn't create stars with Hogan there. Jericho had to go to WWE to get a break as did Eddie Guerrero.

Those associated with Hogan and the NWO got over as did Goldberg. Don't blame Hogan for Bischoff's extreme generosity. Are you telling me if you were in Hogan's shoes you would have done things differently? I highly doubt it.

Jerichoholic wrote:

Hogan killed WCW, and then gave Vince the opportunity to not care anymore, and give us the appalling crap he delivers now.

Your argument for Hogan killing WCW seems to centre around flawed logic, ie that Hogan didn't give anyone a rub which as I've shown is actually bullsh*t.

And if he is delivering "appalling crap" why is it the people gave him the loudest pop of the night at Summerslam this year? And why is it that the WWE will bend over backwards to get him at Mania?

It's because Hogan is the biggest star in pro wrestling. To suggest Hogan has done the most harm in the last 25 years is just madness. Pro wrestling would never have gone maihnstream without him.

He put it on the bleeding map for feck's sake. Open your eyes and get off your anti-Hogan soap box for a minute and give the man his dues.

Jerichoholic

Hogan had no choice but put Goldberg over, Goldberg was getting HUGE support at the time, more than anyone in WCW, but that's one guy WCW made. ONE. Hardly anything to be proud of since they had talent there and none of it was getting main event matches, unless you were Hogan's buddy.

Anyhoo, can someone upload that Meltzer/Alverez discussion? I'd love to hear it.

Vince135792003

Its subscriber only at www.f4wonline. 7 dollars a month. It was on one of the 6 radio shows Alvarez does during the week along with the newsletter he puts out.

Dave Meltzer is a bi-weekly guest. 90 minute ad free Meltzer shows are fun.

Jerichoholic

I listen to Brian and Vinnie every tuesday as they whine and moan about Raw, it's quite fun really. Do you know of anywhere the Meltzer shows can be got withought signing up?

Vince135792003

No. But Alvarez usually does 99 cents for 1 month offers now and again.

Jerichoholic

I may just join it, but I hear the people on their board are just Smarky McSmarkington.