Prem Weekend Fixtures Thread

dohboy

I don't really think Crouch is good enough against top quality opposition.

Good squad player, and does well against the lesser teams, but there's not really enough variation in his game.

PHB

Kuyt has proven himself in Dutch land, but then again, so had Kezman.
Prolific? Liverpool's strike force hasn't got a single player who would make it into Chelsea/Uniteds/Arsenals strikeforce, they are nowhere near strong enough.

In relation to the balance, as I was saying before the season started, when you switch to an attacking sort of formation, you are much more likely to concede goals. If you switch to an attacking sort of formation, it doesn't mean you will score more goals, but it does take away from your defense. That's why Liverpool are doing worse this year, because they are trying to be more attacking, but are being **** at it.

Liverpool today had nothing going forward, indeed their only thing going forward seemed to be time that Arsenal didn't spend on the ball, that was it. Their front men never came to recieve the ball, the back line can't spread the play, Alonso played poorly, Gerrard had nothing, so basically the game when Hyypia to Carragher to Finnan to Alonso to X, ball lost. Sometimes we had a long ball, but that normally failed. Aside from the system being wrong, despite all the money spent, Liverpool still lack a front 4 (incl wingers) to do any damage to any decent defense, and it's not like the defense had much to be proud of today either.

Ultimately, that's a preformance I'd expect from any team that is 14 points behind the leaders.

jank

Nice win for arsenal. Totally deserved. Still a bit worried that the midfielders arent scoring enough although flamini did score id like to see mroe of Cesc, Hleb and Van Persie.

Thought Hleb was the man of the match.

Too many average players at Liverpool. Pennant/Zenden give me a break!
If they dont sort out their away form then they can kiss Europe next season good bye

jesus_thats_gre

Ouch.. Zenden pretty much confirmed my doubts about him today. The midfield should have been:

Speedy- Alonso - Gerard - Pennant/Garcia

Another lesson in football for the pool today.

el rabitos

speedy nothing, i though he was muck, and if i could have i would have kicked him square in the ass as he walked off the pitch. the first goal was his fault, headless chicken style marking.

i dont think theres any great mystery as to why the team isnt playing well. its simple and i've posted the same reason after every match they've lost this season. they team has no ballance, they dont attack and defend as a unit.

if the team was capable of attacking as a unit then some of the defenders would be scoring the odd goal, but very very very rairly is it that ANY liverpool defender scores appart from riise, and even then its usually only because its a piledriver from distance.

ANY team that wants to win the league needs their defenders to score. they dont need to be prolific, just the odd goal here and there is enough and can be the difference between getting points and getting nothing

liverpool wont win anything more than the fa cup or league cup unless they can learn how to ballance a good solid defence and a strong attack.

on a side note, the players looked weak and unfit today and that was nothing to do with tactics or a lack of ballance, the arsenal players looked like athletes and the liverpool players were just being shouldered off the ball far too easily.

i dont think its a problem with the quality of players, i think for the most part, 1 or 2 players excluded the squad thats there was capable of winning the league. its up to rafa to get his idea's across to the players better, right now they seem to be losing and not learning anything from the losses, which is dissapointing.

RE*AC*TOR

el rabitos wrote:

speedy nothing, i though he was muck, and if i could have i would have kicked him square in the ass as he walked off the pitch. the first goal was his fault, headless chicken style marking.

agreed, he was inneffective going forward, and his tackling was pathetic.

el rabitos wrote:

if the team was capable of attacking as a unit then some of the defenders would be scoring the odd goal, but very very very rairly is it that ANY liverpool defender scores appart from riise, and even then its usually only because its a piledriver from distance.

ANY team that wants to win the league needs their defenders to score.

Agger has also scored, and Paletta picked up one in the carling cup. Has Aurelio scored? Either way I don't think defenders scoring is a big issue.

el rabitos wrote:

on a side note, the players looked weak and unfit today

I thought so too. Gerrard for instance looked like he was carrying weight.

Anyway, at this rate, not only will we not win the league, but we are going to struggle to qualify for the Champions League next year.

On an interesting but ultimately irrelevant note we are top of the home form league and bottom of the away form league.

Raskolnikov

Far too many average players at Liverpool for them to realistically challenge for the title. Zenden, Pennant, Bellamy, etc will never be good enough to challenege for the Premier League.

Xavi6

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

On an interesting but ultimately irrelevant note we are top of the home form league and bottom of the away form league.

Worse away record than Man. City? I was convinced we're bottom of that. Wow things are bad!!!

redspider

Another poor result from Liverpool, but the main issues are known and are coming home to roost. I made the claim several weeks ago that Liverpool's title race was over and its pretty obvious now. Granted, Liverpool have had a difficult fixture list with away matches against Chelsea, Man U and Arsenal, but without picking up one point it will take 3 reversals to get back near, and thats not including the lost points at Sheff Wed and Everton.

The mistakes today I thought were tactical. For one, Gerrard should have been played in the centre with Sissoko out. Liverpool missed him badly and the Zenden and Alonso pairing was too light to keep Arsenal from threading through their passing game. Secondly, at the back, Hyppia was a slow-moving target just waiting to be ran through.

And thats where the first goal came from, Hyypia far too slow to cover back with Riise, Arsenal playing their usual style just passed the balll down a channel through to a runner and it was 4 Arsenal players, yes four versus Carragher and Reina.

The 2nd was also Hyppia to blame, left standing (relatively) as Toure ran past on a through ball. Reina I would blame 10% for allowing himself to be nutmegged. He did save one similarly late on from Adebayor so that made up from it and avoided a 4-0 embarrassment.

Then, the 3rd, a mix-up between man-marking and zonal between Riise and Gerrard. It probably didnt matter. I would also blame Reina as any goalie worth his salt should command the 6 yard box and should have come to claim that. Crosses are one of Reina's weak points and he is showing no signs of improvement and this will always act as a source of goals.

Are there any seeds of hope? Hopefully, Benitez will have seen that when Pennant came on, Liverpool did play better-ish as Gerrard was central, so surely he will have to pair Alonso and Gerrard in the next match. Surely Benitez will realise that Hyppia is past it for certain games. Keep him as a back-up defender and use him in those matches where deadball situations are the most important thing, where he can mop up against crossing teams. Arsenal is the anti-thesis of this.

Its not the end of the world for Liverpool. Now they need to concentrate on the race for 3rd/4th and securing that all important CL-qualifying berth. They will have a better run of fixtures than all other teams so that should help them climb. They can concentrate on the cups and optimize the squad for CL games. This will help them get as far as possible. They can start as well by getting some revenge on Arsenal in the next round of the Carling Cup.

My prediction for the league after the weekends results, Chelsea's 4-0 win, Man Utd's 0-1 win, is as before:

1. Chelsea
2. Man Utd
3. Arsenal
4. Liverpool

Redspider

Guy:Incognito

redspider wrote:

And thats where the first goal came from, Hyypia far too slow to cover back with Riise, Arsenal playing their usual style just passed the balll down a channel through to a runner and it was 4 Arsenal players, yes four versus Carragher and Reina.

The 2nd was also Hyppia to blame, left standing (relatively) as Toure ran past on a through ball. Reina I would blame 10% for allowing himself to be nutmegged. He did save one similarly late on from Adebayor so that made up from it and avoided a 4-0 embarrassment.

In fairness, the ball put in for the first goal came from zenden standing watching his man take the ball and slide it across the box. For the 2nd, toure ran by 3 other players before getting to hyypia, so they have to share blame. It's not good enough for players to stand watching with the attitude of "aahh sure theres defenders behind me, they'll sort it out, why should I bother running". Teams shoudl attack and defend together.

Gonzalez was terrible , he offered nothing. His shooting is wild and poorly chosen. Zenden also doesnt offer enough to warrant his place.

Benitez has had 2 seasons in the pl now and still doesn tknow how to play in it. The team he picked didnt lok like one that was ever going to do anything to arsenal. Not putting Gerrard in the middle has got to be down to him being stubborn at this stage, I cant see any other logic to it.

He also needs to cop on that over the last 5 years we have won everythign there is to win, bar the league, and thats all he should be concentrating on.Everything needs to be second to the league. the league shoudlnt be used as a means to get to the cl qualification rounds.

kinaldo

redspider wrote:

Another poor result from Liverpool, but the main issues are known and are coming home to roost. I made the claim several weeks ago that Liverpool's title race was over and its pretty obvious now. Granted, Liverpool have had a difficult fixture list with away matches against Chelsea, Man U and Arsenal, but without picking up one point it will take 3 reversals to get back near, and thats not including the lost points at Sheff Wed and Everton.

The mistakes today I thought were tactical. For one, Gerrard should have been played in the centre with Sissoko out. Liverpool missed him badly and the Zenden and Alonso pairing was too light to keep Arsenal from threading through their passing game. Secondly, at the back, Hyppia was a slow-moving target just waiting to be ran through.

And thats where the first goal came from, Hyypia far too slow to cover back with Riise, Arsenal playing their usual style just passed the balll down a channel through to a runner and it was 4 Arsenal players, yes four versus Carragher and Reina.

The 2nd was also Hyppia to blame, left standing (relatively) as Toure ran past on a through ball. Reina I would blame 10% for allowing himself to be nutmegged. He did save one similarly late on from Adebayor so that made up from it and avoided a 4-0 embarrassment.

Then, the 3rd, a mix-up between man-marking and zonal between Riise and Gerrard. It probably didnt matter. I would also blame Reina as any goalie worth his salt should command the 6 yard box and should have come to claim that. Crosses are one of Reina's weak points and he is showing no signs of improvement and this will always act as a source of goals.

Are there any seeds of hope? Hopefully, Benitez will have seen that when Pennant came on, Liverpool did play better-ish as Gerrard was central, so surely he will have to pair Alonso and Gerrard in the next match. Surely Benitez will realise that Hyppia is past it for certain games. Keep him as a back-up defender and use him in those matches where deadball situations are the most important thing, where he can mop up against crossing teams. Arsenal is the anti-thesis of this.

Its not the end of the world for Liverpool. Now they need to concentrate on the race for 3rd/4th and securing that all important CL-qualifying berth. They will have a better run of fixtures than all other teams so that should help them climb. They can concentrate on the cups and optimize the squad for CL games. This will help them get as far as possible. They can start as well by getting some revenge on Arsenal in the next round of the Carling Cup.

My prediction for the league after the weekends results, Chelsea's 4-0 win, Man Utd's 0-1 win, is as before:

1. Chelsea
2. Man Utd
3. Arsenal
4. Liverpool

Redspider

Good post apart from the "lost points at Sheffield Wed" bit, and the hyphen in antithesis.. lol

I really hope your prediction is wrong. I think it would be great if Arsenal can win the league with their brand of total football and limited resources.

redspider

Stekelly wrote:

In fairness, the ball put in for the first goal came from zenden standing watching his man take the ball and slide it across the box. For the 2nd, toure ran by 3 other players before getting to hyypia, so they have to share blame. It's not good enough for players to stand watching with the attitude of "aahh sure theres defenders behind me, they'll sort it out, why should I bother running". Teams shoudl attack and defend together.

Gonzalez was terrible , he offered nothing. His shooting is wild and poorly chosen. Zenden also doesnt offer enough to warrant his place.

Benitez has had 2 seasons in the pl now and still doesn tknow how to play in it. The team he picked didnt lok like one that was ever going to do anything to arsenal. Not putting Gerrard in the middle has got to be down to him being stubborn at this stage, I cant see any other logic to it.

He also needs to cop on that over the last 5 years we have won everythign there is to win, bar the league, and thats all he should be concentrating on.Everything needs to be second to the league. the league shoudlnt be used as a means to get to the cl qualification rounds.

In terms of the 1st goal, I agree that Zenden perhaps could have done a bit more, he was trying, but Hyypia was clearly moving the wrong way, stepping out, in fact attempting to look for an off-side. We know that Riise isnt the best defender in the world, but with Hyypia's lack of pace, he is complicit in these goals and the major factor in my opinion. Likewise for the 2nd goal. If he had pace, he would have been able to trackback with Toure. Carra made a vain attempt to claim offside as he watched painfully. He always runs the risk when he is not available to cover for Hyppia. Its an unfair pressure on Carragher as well.

I agree with you about Gonzalez, so far he has not shown enough, he has flashes but is probably not good enough for Liverpool's target standard. Zenden likewise. I said that when he was signed on a free.

In terms of winning the league, Liverpool are still short of the consistency thats needed. Leaking goals and not scoring them means that Liverpool with their current capability will struggle to win it. Benitez made a lot of signings before this season but the team is no closer than last year and I would be surprised if they managed to get within 1 pt of second. Winning the league given the resources that both Man Utd have and Chelsea have is going to be difficult. Liverpool's benchmark is Arsenal, a club with similar resources although with the use of their new stadium will put place down into 4th.

Its no conincidence that the spending table is also 1. Chelsea 2. Man Utd and 3/4 Arsenal/Liverpool.

Redspider


Redspider

redspider

kinaldo wrote:

Good post apart from the "lost points at Sheffield Wed" bit, and the hyphen in antithesis.. lol

I really hope your prediction is wrong. I think it would be great if Arsenal can win the league with their brand of total football and limited resources.

Yes, it should have been Sheff Utd of course, a typo of sorts - and antithesis does not have a hyphen in modern english and is pronounced an-tith-e-sis, and not an-ti-thee-sis, although my understanding is that the etymology of the word is based on anti and thesis so the pronounciation has probably been changed. anyway ....

I dont think Arsenal will compete, whilst I totally agree that they play a great flowing passing style of football with Henry hanging out on the inside left position, I dont think they will be able to break down enough teams.


A couple of extra things I want to point out. The headlines and those that report on the match in media are stating that Arsenal hammered Liverpool. You would think this perhaps at a cursory reading of the 3-0 scoreline but that certainly is an incorrect conclusion. Liverpool leaked the goals rather than Arsenal playing them off the park. In fact, in terms of attempts at goal, Arsenal had 8 and Liverpool 12, yes, you read that correct.

The other thing is that Gerrard was not playing well in the first half, and was in a sulk at not being played in the centre. I think Benitez is playing a bit of mind games with Gerrard, and its not working in my opinion. I think yesterday would have been the perfect time to play Gerrard in the middle. Gerrard was on record as stating that it was his best position, so why not give it to him when the opportunity arose. Benitez in his post match interviews then I think made another mistake by remarking that even when Gerrard was in the middle for the last 30 mins of the match that "we didn't create many chances".

I think its all very well and good for Rafa to show that he is the boss and he selects the team and not the players, but equally it has to be recognised that Stevie is probably our best player and it is pointless rubbing him up the wrong way. It backfired on us yesterday especially in the first half.

Away to Boro next, if we are going to pick up any away points this season, that this one place to do it.

Redspider

iregk

redspider wrote:

Its no conincidence that the spending table is also 1. Chelsea 2. Man Utd and 3/4 Arsenal/Liverpool.

In this instance I'd be interested to see Newcastle's spending in relation...

Watching the game yesterday as a text from a mate of mine came in "Rafa Out" (which I thought was a touch sensationalist) i couldn't help but feel lost at exactly what he is trying to do. I echo what has been said before me, the players he has brought in are mid table players that are never going to challenge for the title. Riise is great on the attack but a very limited defender. Hyypia is finished and Finnan is not playing well. Players who came in, Bellamy, Gonzales, Pennant, Kyut are not table topping players. Crouch is great against average teams but gets shown up against good opposition.

The big problem with Alonso is that amasingly gifted and all that he is he is not a player to get you out of trouble. When you are winning, he is awesome. When you are loosing he disappears. He is not the type of player to fight for a game. Gerrard was and has been all season absolute muck. I'm laughing now at the office buddies that slagged me over Lampard earlier on in the season. Two of them have already this morning said that they would rather have Lampard.

All that said I think a big blow for liverpool was the Sisoko injury. He is the only one that really gives good defensive cover!

Jivin Turkey

Arsenal deserved their win and were great to watch. I'd love to see them overhaul Chelsea, but I think that they might come just short. Selling Cole was a fantastic piece of business by Wenger. Gallas is a superior player, and Clichy looks a ready made replacement too. He was excellent I thought yesterday.

Van Persie as well looks the part. A very exiting player. If he sorts his temprament out he could become one of the best in Europe IMO.

PHB wrote:

Kuyt has proven himself in Dutch land, but then again, so had Kezman.
Prolific? Liverpool's strike force hasn't got a single player who would make it into Chelsea/Uniteds/Arsenals strikeforce, they are nowhere near strong enough.

You say that as such a matter of fact. But lets have a look at it.

Kuyt has scored five goals in eight PL starts. Not bad at all. And better than any forward of the aformentioned clubs bar Drogba. Kuyt looks an absolutely fantastic player and provides so much more to the team than just scoring goals.

Crouch has scored seven in twelve starts this year, not to mention five in five games for England, and a goal in the Charity Shield. Again not too bad, and a record that betters most of the players at each of the clubs you have mentioned.

Now I'm not for a second saying that these players would walk into any team, but I just think the actual facts of the matter throw a bit of cold water on another one of your one-eyed claims that these players are "nowhere near strong enough".

One things for sure, Liverpool's problems do not centre around their strike force.

iregk

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Selling Cole was a fantastic piece of business by Wenger. Gallas is a superior player, and Clichy looks a ready made replacement too. He was excellent I thought yesterday.

I think that was great business for all parties. Cole got his move, Chelsea got their world class left back they needed (now we just need a right sided one also!) and Arsenal got rid of a problem child gaining arguably the best defender in the league as a replacement. Great deal all around.

The Muppet

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Crouch has scored seven in twelve starts this year, not to mention five in five games for England, and a goal in the Charity Shield. Again not too bad, and a record that betters most of the players at each of the clubs you have mentioned.

Now I'm not for a second saying that these players would walk into any team, but I just think the actual facts of the matter throw a bit of cold water on another one of your one-eyed claims that these players are "nowhere near strong enough".

One things for sure, Liverpool's problems do not centre around their strike force.

Crouch is the modern day Niall Quinn, he is a decent player with good feet for his size but because he is so tall something has to give and its strength and speed, He does not have the body strength to muscle out defenders and that is why he is not good enough to be a Liverpool striker. If he were to bulk up he would be too heavy.

I like what I have seen of Kuyt so far but he was caught out for lack of pace a couple of times yesterday.

Liverpool are rubbish away from home this season, was it 1 shot on target in 90 minutes of football ? that says it all. Too many time yestday they were in possession in Arsenals half only to end up back passing back to their own defenders in their own half, No penetration no Urgency. To many poor players, Gonzales is rubbish tactics are wrong, Gerrard on the right is something Houlier would do.

Jivin Turkey

The Muppet wrote:

Crouch is the modern day Niall Quinn, he is a decent player with good feet for his size but because he is so tall something has to give and its strength and speed, He does not have the body strength to muscle out defenders and that is why he is not good enough to be a Liverpool striker. If he were to bulk up he would be too heavy.

Crouch's record this year speaks for itself. Particularly when you consider he hasn't gotten a steady run of games.

And again, Crouch does far more for the team than just score goals. He may lack pace and stength but every player has weaknesses.

The Muppet wrote:

I like what I have seen of Kuyt so far but he was caught out for lack of pace a couple of times yesterday.

While Kuyt may not be Michael Owen, he is no slouch. I don't think being caught out for pace by any of Eboue/Toure/Gallas/Clichy is exactly a black mark on your book.

They are without doubt the most athletic backline in the league if not the world.

The Muppet wrote:

Gerrard on the right is something Houlier would do.

While I think Gerrard probably should have started centrally yesterday, for all the people questioning playing him on the right, as Benitez would say, he had his most prolific season playing there for large parts of last year.

While Sissoko is injured though I agree he should be playing centrally though.

bucks73

Jivin Turkey wrote:

You say that as such a matter of fact. But lets have a look at it.

Kuyt has scored five goals in eight PL starts. Not bad at all. And better than any forward of the aformentioned clubs bar Drogba. Kuyt looks an absolutely fantastic player and provides so much more to the team than just scoring goals.

Crouch has scored seven in twelve starts this year, not to mention five in five games for England, and a goal in the Charity Shield. Again not too bad, and a record that betters most of the players at each of the clubs you have mentioned.

Now I'm not for a second saying that these players would walk into any team, but I just think the actual facts of the matter throw a bit of cold water on another one of your one-eyed claims that these players are "nowhere near strong enough".

One things for sure, Liverpool's problems do not centre around their strike force.

And out of all of those goals not one was against Chelsea, United, Arsenal or Everton.

Admittedly they were all away games but 1 goal away from home in 6 games in pathetic. And even that goal was a Fowler peno. Scoring for England or in the Charity Shield wont win crucial league points.

Liverpool fans might say that they have now played all their toughest away games but the fact is they will not beat all four teams at Anfield and they will also drop plenty more stupid points away from home.

Jivin Turkey

bucks73 wrote:

And out of all of those goals not one was against Chelsea, United, Arsenal or Everton.

That statement is incorrect unless you expand further on it.

bucks73 wrote:

Admittedly they were all away games but 1 goal away from home in 6 games in pathetic. And even that goal was a Fowler peno. Scoring for England or in the Charity Shield wont win crucial league points.

I agree. But the point I am making is that Crouch is obviously a better player than some people are giving him credit for.

bucks73 wrote:

Liverpool fans might say that they have now played all their toughest away games but the fact is they will not beat all four teams at Anfield and they will also drop plenty more stupid points away from home.

No the fact is that they have played their toughest away games. It is not a fact that they will not beat them all at Anfield. That is what you think. And you may be right. But it is still just speculation at the minute.

I fail to see what the point of your post is. You seem to be having a dig at Liverpool's title aspirations but I don't think anyone including the fans or the players would disagree with you.

iregk

Jivin Turkey wrote:

That statement is incorrect unless you expand further on it.

I think the point he is making is that while Crouch has scored some goals they were against lower class opposition and he has not scored against the good teams. Similar to the England situation, check his record there. All very weak teams.

growler

Jivin Turkey wrote:

I agree. But the point I am making is that Crouch is obviously a better player than some people are giving him credit for.

I thought Crouch was a hell of a lot worse than some people give him credit for.

bucks73

Jivin Turkey wrote:

I fail to see what the point of your post is. You seem to be having a dig at Liverpool's title aspirations but I don't think anyone including the fans or the players would disagree with you.

I was replying to your statement directed at PHB:

Jivin Turkey wrote:

You say that as such a matter of fact. But lets have a look at it.

Kuyt has scored five goals in eight PL starts. Not bad at all. And better than any forward of the aformentioned clubs bar Drogba. Kuyt looks an absolutely fantastic player and provides so much more to the team than just scoring goals.

Crouch has scored seven in twelve starts this year, not to mention five in five games for England, and a goal in the Charity Shield. Again not too bad, and a record that betters most of the players at each of the clubs you have mentioned.

Now I'm not for a second saying that these players would walk into any team, but I just think the actual facts of the matter throw a bit of cold water on another one of your one-eyed claims that these players are "nowhere near strong enough".

One things for sure, Liverpool's problems do not centre around their strike force.

IMO Liverpools problems do centre around their strikeforce. I think thats pretty obvious when you have only scored one goal in 6 away games.

I agree with PHBs statement that not one of Liverpools strikers would get on Chelseas/Uniteds or Arsenals first 11.

That was the point of my post.

Dont be at yourself

Liverpool's problems, as I see them, are in getting the right balance in midfield.

The wingers aren't offering enough in attack, Alonso and Gerrard would not offer enough defensively as a central pairing, and so we're forced to shoehorn Gerrard into the right. Gerrard is still our best player for breaking down defences, even when playing from the right, but this begs the question - why did Rafa sign Pennant & Gonzalez? Or Luis Garcia for that matter? Certainly the former have shown very little that would justify them with a squad number at a top team. I still think Garcia can do a job, but it wont be enough to take the burden of attacking responsibilties from Gerrard, as is required for him to paly centre with Alonso.

I dunno what the solution is, looking at our current squad. I know Rafa played one up front when at Valencia, so how about:

---

Reina
Finnan-Carra-Hyppia-Riise
---Sissoko-Alonso
-Garcia-Gerrard-Bellamy/Gonzalez/Kewell (when he's fit!)

---

Kuyt

I do think for 4-4-2 we need two wide players who are capable of carving up defences, because its their absense which is forcing Gerrard to play out of position to do it.

Guy:Incognito

iregk wrote:

In this instance I'd be interested to see Newcastle's spending in relation..

Aah good ol' Newcastle, the very definition of "exception that proves the rule"

PHB

Kuyt has scored five goals in eight PL starts. Not bad at all. And better than any forward of the aformentioned clubs bar Drogba. Kuyt looks an absolutely fantastic player and provides so much more to the team than just scoring goals.

Crouch has scored seven in twelve starts this year, not to mention five in five games for England, and a goal in the Charity Shield. Again not too bad, and a record that betters most of the players at each of the clubs you have mentioned.

Now I'm not for a second saying that these players would walk into any team, but I just think the actual facts of the matter throw a bit of cold water on another one of your one-eyed claims that these players are "nowhere near strong enough".

One things for sure, Liverpool's problems do not centre around their strike force.

No they don't, but they are part of the overall problem. If you placed say 2 great wingers in the team, you'd stil have a problem.

Premiership Record:

Crouch - West Ham, Villa

Kuyt - Newcastle, Spurs, Villa, Reading

Crouch's goals against Haifa, Galatasaray, Bordeaux, Reading against all but one non-prem opposition don't really hold much weight.

So you have two strikers, one with 2 premiership goals, one with 5, in 12 premiership games.

The following strikers have equal or more than that:

Didier Drogba 8
Nwankwo Kanu 7
Darren Bent 6
Andrew Johnson 6
Thierry Henry 5
Frank Lampard 5
Tim Cahill 5
Wayne Rooney 5
Louis Saha 5

It's clear Crouch is nowhere near that standard, with only 2 goals. Kuyt may be close in terms of finishing, but a striker is not just about finishing.

Kuyt is like a bad version of Van Nist. Van Nist used to provide not a huge amount to the team, although more than Juyt currently does, but got a ****load of goals. Kuyt provides little to the team, and a couple of goals.

Crouch is there so Liverpool can play a long ball as an option. Why is this?
Because Alonso and Gerrard can't pass the ball up to the strikers to move the ball forward. We saw this all the time in the game against Arsenal. Alonso would have the ball, and have no outlet.

From this we can deduce two possibilities:

1. The midfielders don't have the ability to pass it to them.
2. The strikers/wingers don't have the ability to make themselves space and availible.

The strikers and the wingers have to provide this outlet, and they currently aren't. Why? Because they aren't good enough. Pennant provided some outlet when he came on, but that's it.

Liverpool with Crouch playing, unless partnered by a very good CF (Belamy I think is the best you guys have, and I think he's a good player), are forced to be a long ball team.

Liverpool's attack are not good enough to challenge for the top 3, let alone the title.

Currently Liverpool are 14 points behind United, 11 behind Chelsea, 4(7) behind Arsenal. The evidene speaks for itself. You can argue back and forth that such and such a player is on par with other players, but the results just show you to be wrong.
Gonzalez hasn't adjusted yet, I thought he'd do better, but hasn't. He needs time.
Pennant is ok, but no better than he ever was.
Zenden is ok, but worse than he used to be.
Crouch is a tall man who can score some goals, but at a massive cost.
Kuyt is an average striker, who made it in the Dutch league, but his preformances in the WC, and so far for Liverpool, have shown him to be one-dimensional, and not even good enough at that one dimension.
Bellamy I think is a class player who with games will do well for Liverpool.

So there is one good player there, maybe 2 with Gonzalez.
The attack is just not good enough.
CM is as weak as United's in terms of depth.
Defense is poor imo, with one decent CB, and a player who will be great but isn't yet, and an old man who can't deal with pace anymore.

Liverpool's team isn't underpreforming, it's playing to it's level. If BEnetiz switches back to defensive tactics, then maybe they can focus on not concedding and relying on a piece of magic by Gerrard/Garcia/Bellamy, but that'll only win ya cups, never win ya leagues.
You can't win the league on penalties, and Liverpool are far off a team who can win the league the only way you can, consistancy and real class. Currently they are missing that in key areas, and if Benetiz doesn't turn it around, they'll lose the real class they have.

Guy:Incognito

Jivin Turkey wrote:

While I think Gerrard probably should have started centrally yesterday, for all the people questioning playing him on the right, as Benitez would say, he had his most prolific season playing there for large parts of last year.

People need to stop going on about last season. He had somethign like 8 goals in the cl qualifiers before the proper season even started, thats not a kick in the arse off half his total.

He isnt happy playing there, he says he isnt happy playing there and is playing crap there. How much more impetus does Benitez need to give him his proper position back? Even with injuries practically picking the team as far as the middle is concerned, he still manages to go against that.

What would peoples opinion be if Mourinho stuck Terry at Left full? and worse still left him there when he was playing crap and the team were losing?

Gerrrad is a player you build a team around, not one you stick in any available position that needs filling.

bucks73 wrote:

And out of all of those goals not one was against Chelsea, United, Arsenal or Everton..

He actually managed to have an attempt against chelsea , a header from 6 yards that managed to end up on the edge of the 18 yard box behind him. Says it all really.

Nalz

PHB wrote:

Kuyt is like a bad version of Van Nist. Van Nist used to provide not a huge amount to the team, although more than Juyt currently does, but got a ****load of goals. Kuyt provides little to the team, and a couple of goals.

from a Man Utd fan i say thats a bit harsh...give the man a chance eh? He had a great assist and goal record before. He doesnt seem to perform for Holland I'll give you that but I think he has done well enough. Give him time PHB

He's only started 7 prem games

Nalz

Stekelly wrote:

Gerrrad is a player you build a team around, not one you stick in any available position that needs filling.

He's IMO also a player that is over ratted big time. Not a patch on Roy Keane, Barnes, Robson, Souness, Whelan and the likes

Guy:Incognito

Trilla wrote:

He's IMO also a player that is over ratted big time. Not a patch on Roy Keane, Barnes, Robson, Souness, Whelan and the likes

Your comparing different types of players, maybe with the exception of Whelan. Keane, Robson and souness were defensive minded midfielders. Barnes was primarily a left winger. If I'm perfectly honest I think Whelan is looked on in a slightly romanticised way by Irish people. Kind of in the way we see some foreign players in a game here or there, or in a few international games and assume he's great.

Whelan was , no doubt a very good player, but I think Gerrard could easily be looked on , after his retirement and by the next generation of fans, as the best premiership midfielder of his generation.He is right up there, but there is every possibility that the passing of time will elevate him further , purely through peoples clouded memories, and tbh if Liverpool do manage to win the league beforehe retires, he will be seen of in that way.

Nalz

Stekelly wrote:

Your comparing different types of players, maybe with the exception of Whelan. Keane, Robson and souness were wefensive minded midfielders.

I dunno about Barnes being a left winger, and as for Whelan he was an unsung hero at Liverpool for a good while.

Im glad to see you stuck to your guns and didnt eat my head off, pity all Man utd v Liverpool conversations couldnt go like that. Gerrard can pass a ball, tackle and has great determination...but Id honestly think that if the likes of Alonso, Lampard, Schoes, even Beckham and Carrick could tackle decent enough - they would be light years ahead of him. Again IMO

Id rather have Alonso, Lampard, Schoes,Ballack,Essien, a fit Scott Parker or Fabregas in my squad before Gerard

Jivin Turkey

PHB wrote:

No they don't, but they are part of the overall problem. If you placed say 2 great wingers in the team, you'd stil have a problem.

The strikers are not a problem. All bar Bellamy are returning a good amount of goals for the amount of playing time they are getting.

PHB wrote:

Premiership Record:

Crouch - West Ham, Villa

Kuyt - Newcastle, Spurs, Villa, Reading

Crouch's goals against Haifa, Galatasaray, Bordeaux, Reading against all but one non-prem opposition don't really hold much weight.

Crouch's four CL proper goals don't carry much weight? Why not? Because they've only secured Liverpool's safe passage to the next round with two games to spare?

What a load of bull.

PHB wrote:

So you have two strikers, one with 2 premiership goals, one with 5, in 12 premiership games.

No that is wrong.

We have one striker with two goals (in six starts), and one striker with five goals in eight starts (and two sub appearances).

PHB wrote:

The following strikers have equal or more than that:

Didier Drogba 8
Nwankwo Kanu 7
Darren Bent 6
Andrew Johnson 6
Thierry Henry 5
Frank Lampard 5
Tim Cahill 5
Wayne Rooney 5
Louis Saha 5

So four strikers have more goals than Kuyt, and four are tied with him but have played more games.

So using your own stats, Kuyt has the fifth best record in the league this year. Not bad. And noticably only one striker from Chelsea/Arsenal/United is ahead of him, yet somehow you can conclude that he is "no where near strong enough"

PHB wrote:

It's clear Crouch is nowhere near that standard, with only 2 goals.

Possibly, but Crouch has only started six games, take Saha for example, he has started ten, and playing for a team who are doing much better, and as you always like to wax lyrical about, play some sort of superior ultra attacking football. Surely if Crouch had started the same amount of games for a team doing so well he would have scored a couple more.

So how can we conclude that he is so much worse?

PHB wrote:

Kuyt may be close in terms of finishing, but a striker is not just about finishing.

Kuyt is like a bad version of Van Nist. Van Nist used to provide not a huge amount to the team, although more than Juyt currently does, but got a ****load of goals. Kuyt provides little to the team, and a couple of goals.

This is another one of your gems to add to the list.

I'd suggest you admit to having never seen the lad play if this is what you think of him. He is a hugely intelligent forward, constantly directing other players and making great runs. Who crossed the ball from the right wing for Crouch's disallowed goal? You guessed it. This is just an example of what he does outside the box, and I didn’t even have to think.

Did you ever see RVN whipping a ball in from the wing?

PHB wrote:

Liverpool's attack are not good enough to challenge for the top 3, let alone the title.

But they managed to achieve it last year? Kuyt and Bellamy have come in and Cisse and Morientes have gone. I know for sure which two I’d rather.

PHB wrote:

Currently Liverpool are 14 points behind United, 11 behind Chelsea, 4(7) behind Arsenal. The evidene speaks for itself. You can argue back and forth that such and such a player is on par with other players, but the results just show you to be wrong.

That is a simplistic view of things, and it is not comparing like for like. You can’t just look at the league table at this stage of the season and say X is better than Y because they are higher in the table as teams haven’t played the same teams.

PHB wrote:

Kuyt is an average striker, who made it in the Dutch league, but his preformances in the WC, and so far for Liverpool, have shown him to be one-dimensional, and not even good enough at that one dimension.

Non-sense. Like I said above, I’d suggest you actually watch him play. He is as far from one dimensional as you can get. He can play any sort of forward role there is to play.

PHB wrote:

CM is as weak as United's in terms of depth.

Alonso, Gerrard, Sissoko, Zenden VS Carrick, Scholes, O’Shea (is he even a CM?) and Fletcher?

You believe what you want to believe.

PHB wrote:

Defense is poor imo, with one decent CB, and a player who will be great but isn't yet, and an old man who can't deal with pace anymore.

Since when do Liverpool play with only two at the back?

PHB wrote:

Liverpool's team isn't underpreforming, it's playing to it's level. If BEnetiz switches back to defensive tactics, then maybe they can focus on not concedding and relying on a piece of magic by Gerrard/Garcia/Bellamy, but that'll only win ya cups, never win ya leagues.
You can't win the league on penalties, and Liverpool are far off a team who can win the league the only way you can, consistancy and real class. Currently they are missing that in key areas, and if Benetiz doesn't turn it around, they'll lose the real class they have.

I don’t think that Liverpool can win the league but to suggest they are “playing to their level” is again utter non-sense. Someone stated that they are bottom of the away form league that is not playing to their level. Ninth in the league is not “their level”.

Nalz

Jivin Turkey and PHB

this is tit for tat

Liverpools defence is a shambles - Carragher out of form, Hyypia aging. Finnan has been absolutely useless for most of the games.

There midfield is being fecked around. Zenden my arse. Worse than John O Shea playing there.

Gerrard, completely overratted. Not a winger. He looks down lately too, out of shape and form. Never did it for England. Spits and spouts for Liverpool and he's a God.


Pennant - hasnt fully got into the team or settled yet.
Gonzalez has been very poor which a surprise.
Sissoko is decent enough, will get better.
Alonso is a class act...but out of form. Far better overall player than Gerrard.

The problem does not lie with the strikers. Kuyt is a really good player, 5 goals. No assists but he is constantly looking up to play balls in. Had his partners up front been more prolific in front of goal then that figure would have risen dramitically. Crouch has done really well. Its not the strikers fault at Liverpool.

jank

but I think Gerrard could easily be looked on , after his retirement and by the next generation of fans, as the best premiership midfielder of his generation

Probably the most laughable statement I have ever heard.

Keane, Ince, Vieria, Petit, Lampard, Pires, Giggs are all better then him imo.

Dont fall into the English hype about him. Good player but the best of a generation??

He was very good a few years ago, but over the last 2 seasons he has been muck. Never really did it for england too.

He has been living off his name for the past few seasons and dare I say it United and Chelsea are gald that they didnt go in for him.

Guy:Incognito

jank wrote:

Probably the most laughable statement I have ever heard.

Keane, Ince, Vieria, Petit, Lampard, Pires, Giggs are all better then him imo.

Dont fall into the English hype about him. Good player but the best of a generation??

He was very good a few years ago, but over the last 2 seasons he has been muck. Never really did it for england too.

He has been living off his name for the past few seasons and dare I say it United and Chelsea are gald that they didnt go in for him.

I'll forget the fact that you ignored my whole post and plucked out a half sentenced that makes it look like I think gerrard is some kind of maradonna.

crap for the last 2 seasons? Last season was his best season ever. Besides the fact that AGAIN, Keane,Ince, Viera and from what I remeber of petit playing (never liked him, so never paid much attention), are primarily DEFENSIVE minded players. As much as I like Keane, he couldnt lace gerarrds boots what Gerrard does best (bursting into forward and attacking teams, scoring great goals, just like Gerrard cant do what Keane did. Giggs? he's a winger. Pires is also a winger ( i actually had to retype that as I had a h in it first by mistake, how ironic), but unlike Giggs, he was an overrated, lazy, diving moaner. I have no problem praising good players from opposition teams, but Pires? give me a break.

Lampard I will signal out for special attention. He is not near the player Gerrard is. Gerrard coult slot into Lampards role at Chelsea, and dare I say it,improve the team. The other way round, Lampard could not handle being in the Liverpool team as too much would be asked of him. He'd simple dissapear. He gets everything his own way for England, yet is nothing above mediocre for them. Gerrard is worth more to england than Lampard, despite the fact that he is pushed out of position so that Lampard can play where he wants. Lampard is shown up for ENgland because he doesnt have the players around him working for him. All he has to do for Chelsea is take shots and scored goals, he may as well play up front. Gerrard doesnt have the luxury of having a manager that will let him do what he does best , but instead he has to be many things, which I feel is to the detriment of the team.

Mourinho would have offloaded Lampard within a season of signing Gerrard. He is not a stupid man, he was signing Gerrard to replace Lampard, not to play them as a very weak central midfieldpairing.

Oh, and I'll hold my hands up to not even being a big Gerrard fan. I think Rafa should have cashed in on him if he wasnt going to play to his strenghts, otherwise he is a potential £30m , out fo sorts and playing badly that could be better used.

kinaldo

iregk wrote:

In this instance I'd be interested to see Newcastle's spending in relation...

Newcastle Utd Premiership Transfer Spending:

06/07: +£7.5m (+15 -7.5)
05/06: +£19m (+38.5 -19.5)
04/05: +£4.5m (+19 -14.5)
03/04: -£3.5m (0 -3.5)
02/03: +£22.85m (+23 -150k)
01/02: +£20.5m (+21 -500k)
00/01: -£5.5m (+17 - 22.5)
99/00: +£8.5m (+21 -12.5)
98/99: +£11.5m (+28.5 -17)
97/98: -£1m (+21 -22)
96/97: +£11m (+15 -4)
95/96: +£19m (+26 -7)
94/95: -£2m (+6 -8)
93/94: +£3.65m (+7.8 -4.15)

Total: +£118m
Average Per Season: +£8.42m

Mad Dog

More stupid statements from you Stekelly

Stekelly wrote:

As much as I like Keane, he couldnt lace gerarrds boots

Has to be your most laughable

I haven't stopped laughing yet......

Stekelly wrote:

Lampard I will signal out for special attention. He is not near the player Gerrard is.

OMG, is there no end to your stupidity :eek: :eek:

Guy:Incognito

Mad Dog wrote:

More stupid statements from you Stekelly



Has to be your most laughable

I haven't stopped laughing yet......


OMG, is there no end to your stupidity :eek: :eek:

why are you picking bits out of the sentences to change their meaning? the full sentences is completely different in meaning.

What I said was "As much as I like Keane, he couldnt lace gerarrds boots what Gerrard does best (bursting into forward and attacking teams, scoring great goals, just like Gerrard cant do what Keane did"

As for the lampard quote, i gave detailed reasons whyi think what i said was true whereas your only means of explaining why lampard is better than gerrard is to say

Mad Dog wrote:

OMG, is there no end to your stupidity :eek: :eek:

Now it might be just me, but where in that cleverly worded sentence does it explain how good a player lampard is?


Plus, why did Mourinho try to sign Gerrard two years in a row if he had a much better player in Lampard?

I mean if you said "van der sar is a better goalkeeper than Michael owen" Me taking out the word goalkeeper and calling you stupid for saying Van Der Sar is better than michael owen just looks childish and stupid.

Nalz

Stekelly wrote:

What I said was "As much as I like Keane, he couldnt lace gerarrds boots what Gerrard does best (bursting into forward and attacking teams, scoring great goals, just like Gerrard cant do what Keane did"

Have you ever seen Roy Keane in his younger days. Besides, he's often been portrayed as the complete midfielder. He is most certainly not. Thats a odd way to put it anyway. Gerrard couldnt lace my boots at what I do best (making ham sandwiches). Completely overratted. Keane was not far off him in terms of going forward in his earlier days, and in terms of everything else was light years ahead of him. An in form Alonso is more important IMO, if played correctly.

Stekelly wrote:

Plus, why did Mourinho try to sign Gerrard two years in a row if he had a much better player in Lampard?

same reason why he bought Ballack, Essien and Wright Phillips. Decent enough players, that others couldnt have or get.

iregk

I can't even being to put a reply together for Stekelly so I will just continue to bust my ass laughing. Trilla, to be honest, I completely agree with everything you have said. But this thread is dying. We have managed to turn it into yet another Lampard -v- Gerrard fight.

jank

No we managed to turn it into a Gerrard is god and all other midfielders are $hit compared to him thread.

Your comments about are Pires are ridiculus. In the 2002 season he was player of the year and got a "we arent worthy" ovation from the arsenal team has we went to pick up his league medal at highbury..

I always wondered why posters were slagging off stkelly off, now i know.

MrJoeSoap

jank wrote:

Your comments about are Pires are ridiculus. In the 2002 season he was player of the year and got a "we arent worthy" ovation from the arsenal team has we went to pick up his league medal at highbury..

Also bizarre after Pires repeated quality performances in the "unbeaten" season, which I seem to remember included a cracker at Anfield, one at home vs Liverpool, as well as tonnes of other goals and assists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcHOO6QeSPY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDFZojwkB3c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmadQcMW78U

Annoying? Occasionally. Overrated? Nah.

Jivin Turkey

jank wrote:

No we managed to turn it into a Gerrard is god and all other midfielders are $hit compared to him thread.

I'm glad that at least you used the first person, because you were one of the main instigators.

You came on here with a pointless and factually incorrect barrage at him. "Much for the last two years"? Remember he scored 20+ goals last year, hardly what I'd call "muck". Despite playing "poorly" in the WC he managed to chip in with two goals from midfield. He was also the principal force that pulled Liverpool through in the finals of the CL and FA Cup in the last two years.

That's what great players do, stand up and be counted when the chips are down in the big games.

Whether he is over-rated or not is all subjective. But the reality of it is he will definitely be remembered as one of the best of his generation (whether warranted or not), because when we all watch reminiscing clips in 20 years all we will see are the great goals he scored in crucial games, and not the times he didn't perform at home to Watford. It's the same with all the great players. And that is why the likes of Makéléle/Petit won't be remembered as fondly (outside their own clubs).

jank wrote:

I always wondered why posters were slagging off stkelly off, now i know.

A cheap comment to be honest. I don't really remember anyone slagging SteKelly off.

In fact I'd wager large sums on to whom may have a bigger reputation........

jesus_thats_gre

MrJoeSoap wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcHOO6QeSPY

Not had time to watch em all but Gerard's pass for Liverpool's second goal was amazing to be honest. Really was a stunning pass.

kinaldo

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Also bizarre after Pires repeated quality performances in the "unbeaten" season, which I seem to remember included a cracker at Anfield, one at home vs Liverpool, as well as tonnes of other goals and assists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcHOO6QeSPY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDFZojwkB3c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmadQcMW78U

Annoying? Occasionally. Overrated? Nah.

His goal against Southampton was the best

MrJoeSoap

kinaldo wrote:

His goal against Southampton was the best

Which one? Jaysus he must have scored at least 10 against us, including the winner in the feckin cup final.

kinaldo

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Which one? Jaysus he must have scored at least 10 against us, including the winner in the feckin cup final.

Lol, I know the feeling - don't ever mention the name Poyet! This one was my favourite.

MrJoeSoap

Ah yes, the cup-final rehearsal. 6-1 wasn't it?

iregk

Jivin Turkey wrote:

we will see are the great goals he scored in crucial games, and not the times he didn't perform at home to Watford. It's the same with all the great players. And that is why the likes of Makéléle/Petit won't be remembered as fondly (outside their own clubs).

Is this not conradicting your earlier post of different types of players etc... Claude doesn't score goals, thats not what he is there for. Lets not forget also that Petit had a bigger game on a much bigger stage than Gerrard ever had. Are you forgetting his display in the 98 WC final?

The fact is that people tend to remember attacking players more fondly than defensive ones and those that do go ahead and score get the credit rather than a great display from a defender that kept a clean sheet etc... Claude Mak has been pure brilliant for Madrid, Chelsea and France and will go down as a legend so even putting either name in there really shows a distinct lack of respect or memory for that matter.

Guy:Incognito

jank wrote:

No we managed to turn it into a Gerrard is god and all other midfielders are $hit compared to him thread.

Your comments about are Pires are ridiculus. In the 2002 season he was player of the year and got a "we arent worthy" ovation from the arsenal team has we went to pick up his league medal at highbury..

I always wondered why posters were slagging off stkelly off, now i know.

For my part in the debate , where exactly do I come close to calling him God? I merely said he was on of the top group of premiership midfielders. I said he was better than lampard and gave reasons as to why I thought so. So far all you and the others have managed to do in Lampards defence is say that my commen tis stupid.

Mad dog took half a sentence to make it look like I said more than I did, which I made sure to correct.

I assume the league being in bold was to highlight the fact that pires won it. thats great, but djimi traore and ddjibril ciise won the cl, you dont have to be a great player to win things, just be in a good team. Again, I never said Pires was crap. He is however overrated by a lot of people. He also likes a dive and a moan. How many players have one or two decent seasons and are seen as great for a while?

Another tactic one people is too mention such and such are better than gerrard. Most if not all the players are completely different types of player. Keane and Gerrard cannot be compared as the same type of player. Gerrard is an attacking, goal scoring midfielder, keane isnt. KEane scored, what 50 goals in his utd career, gerard has 65 so far in his Liverpool career. Both have been massive rocks for their clubs, but in different ways.