So who else is sick of shell to sea?

fish-head

I think we can safely say that they bollocksed it up.

Sam Vimes

Badly Drunk Boy wrote:

What gives Shell the right to have a say in this decision? Fair enough, the government can, but why would they? I wonder if there were (m)any brown envelopes involved...

they didn't have a say in the decision. they made a request of the government and they granted it

Badly Drunk Boy wrote:

Shell is a private company. Why should they be allowed to take our natural resources? Because they have money behind them?

no, because they signed an agreement with our government to do so

Wishbone Ash wrote:

????? Enlighten us!

em...he took some [STRIKE]bribes[/STRIKE] gifts there a while back

greglo23 wrote:

A few points to consider when discussing the Shell to Sea situation. This is the first time a private company was given the right to get compulsory purchase orders on private land. AFAIK this is also the first time this method of treatment e.g. bringing the raw gas a wshore before before treating it, has been used anywhere worldwide.

that could be true but that's not what a respresentative of shell said on the radio. he said that a project like this has never been done at sea and no oil company would ever do it

greglo23 wrote:

Why cant we do as the Norwegians did and bring the gas ashore ourselves and let the Irish economy get the benefit of these ( our ) resources.

fianna fail couldn't find their arses with both hands and yet you trust them to build a refinery more than shell!!?:eek:

hmmm

The next time some community doesn't want something that's good for the country, but somewhat bad for them, they'll be able to stop it if we "give in" to this crowd in Mayo. No more prisons, dumps, docks, phone masts, sewerage plants, podge & rodge etc

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Chakar wrote:

People are basically supporting them because a small village in north west of Connacht with 8000 people don't want it in their backyard.

....and such protests would have happened anywhere in the country where someone had a backyard. Even the neo-nazi anti-protesters who supported the gardai earlier in this thread would suddenly go through massive 180 degree change in attitudes if it was on their patch.

Anyone know if the same can be said about Sellafield regarding meeting accepted safety standards...?

phantom_lord

I was jsut thinking the other day of how sick of this i was.

Piste

Hmm I'm now thinking of becoming a proffessional protestor, where if people are organising protests and need more people they can hire me and I'll charge by the hour. God knows there'd be enough of a demand for it in this country.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

hmmm wrote:

The next time some community doesn't want something that's good for the country, but somewhat bad for them, they'll be able to stop it if we "give in" to this crowd in Mayo. No more prisons, dumps, docks, phone masts, sewerage plants, podge & rodge etc

Can we build it next door to your family home?

Diogenes

J.R.HARTLEY wrote:

Force can be used to remove people illegaly blocking public or private throughways that they may blocking.
for gods sake if they sat down in your doorway or in front of your house blocking your driveway tomorrow you'd be screaming at the gardai to move them

Wow Connolly and Larkin and the men who fought to make this country independent must be so proud of the above sentiment considering our
history.

The next time some community doesn't want something that's good for the country

The locals are concerned about the dangers from pipelines running close to their homes. Halting sites, prisons and dumps dont occasionally explode.

I have concerns about how benifical this deal is for the Irish people, call me a cynic but considering the track record of this government I think its fair to have concerns about how a massive natural resource was sold out to a company with a less than specutacular human rights record, to a government whos track record for looking out for the best for the Irish people is nearly as appalling.

Incidently here's a few examples.

The date of the protest at rossport is the memorial of the death of ken saro a nigerian human rights activists murdered at the request of shell
http://archive.greenpeace.org/comms/ken/murder.html

But hey I'm sure you're being "fed up" with the irish governments dubious selling off a national asset ,under suspicious terms, despite the objections of the people affected by the deal, to a company with a obscene human rights record, thats okay. The rest of us have a thing called a "conscience" and find the whole thing, and your attitude, reprehensible.

logonapr

And isn't it most reassuring to see how Sinn Féin are so concerned for the welfare of a small number of local objectors (excluding the dial a mob crowd that are bussed in)? In my innocence I used to think that they might have aspired to also respresent those that wish to work

Perhaps they still just have difficulty understanding what abiding by the laws of the land actually comprises!

sunnyjim

Wishbone Ash wrote:

She seems to be able to dodge any questions regarding why she is not in school! I find her nauseating. She claimed yesterday that she had every right to bring her van on to the public highway. She convienently ignored that, while on a public highway, a motorist must follow any instruction given by a Garda.

The hilarious part is that she got into her van, and got people to push her into the line of Gardai. If they didn't move, they would be injured or worse. And then thay have the audacity to give out when they get injured.

Mrs Doyle wrote:

Whether you support the protesters or not, I would have thought it still very obvious that the Gardai, once again, behaved in an incredibly unprofessional manner.
The whole thing could have been dealt with in a way that did not involved smashing a woman's front window in, while she was still in the vehicle, or dumping a man, badly beaten, into a ditch

She was in a van that was GOING TO RUN THEM OVER!!! Stop me when we get to the part where the Gardai become unproffesional.

The crowd block the road.
The Gardai call on them to let the vehicles past.
The crowd resist.
The Gardai set up for public order, line up with batons drawn.
A van is pushed into them.
They try to arrest the driver, and the crowd resist.
- Up to this point, they have tried to disturb the peace, block a public highway, injure gardai, resist arrest, and aid others to evade arrest
Gardai advance on mob, in attempt to move them from the road.
A few people get hurt resisting the law.
People refuse to move, forcing gardai to move them.

Diogenes

sunnyjim wrote:

The hilarious part is that she got into her van, and got people to push her into the line of Gardai. If they didn't move, they would be injured or worse. And then thay have the audacity to give out when they get injured.

The van was beyond moronic, and theres no defense for it it's idiotic damaging of the cause and loses moral support.

It's a perversion of th principles on NVDA to bring a car into it.

You can sympathise with people while condemning their behaviour.

Diogenes

sunnyjim wrote:

She was in a van that was GOING TO RUN THEM OVER!!! Stop me when we get to the part where the Gardai become unproffesional.

The crowd block the road.
The Gardai call on them to let the vehicles past.
The crowd resist.
The Gardai set up for public order, line up with batons drawn.
A van is pushed into them.
They try to arrest the driver, and the crowd resist.
- Up to this point, they have tried to disturb the peace, block a public highway, injure gardai, resist arrest, and aid others to evade arrest
Gardai advance on mob, in attempt to move them from the road.
A few people get hurt resisting the law.
People refuse to move, forcing gardai to move them.

Okay she was moving at around five miles an hour trying at speed trying to run down some gardai at speed thats just hyperbolia

J.R.HARTLEY

Diogenes wrote:

Wow Connolly and Larkin and the men who fought to make this country independent must be so proud of the above sentiment considering our
history.

starving hungry abused (working for next to nothing) people vs illegal nimby protest who ignore saftey reports and a legally obtained injunction

your comparing James Connolly and Jim Larkin to these people, freedomfighters to troublemakers (what else do you call people breaking the injuction order.)
you're post is moronic and stinks of ignorance.
you really know your history don't you?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

i wouldn't want to be run over by a van moving at 5 miles an hour...that would hurt

Ste.phen

Diogenes wrote:

Okay she was moving at around five miles an hour trying at speed trying to run down some gardai at speed thats just hyperbolia

Ok, i have some trouble understanding what you're saying here, but I gather it's related to you thinking that drving (albeit slowly) towards gardaí and refusing to stop is acceptable?

Or are you saying people are blowing it out of proportion?

Or...

(seriously, what the hell were you saying?)

sunnyjim

Diogenes wrote:

Okay she was moving at around five miles an hour trying at speed trying to run down some gardai at speed thats just hyperbolia

Be it 5mph or 50 mph, a moving van has enough momentum to hurt someone.

Can anyone put a name to the driver? Its not that principal who runs a very unefficient school is it?

ninebeanrows

It was either the gas stayed out there with nothing done to it, or it created hundreds of jobs in the declining west of Ireland, brought millions of euro into the Irish economy and provided Ireland with a source of energy for 20 years.

It was a simple decision really and if these wacko protestors don't stop companies such as shell won't want to invest millions of there money in Ireland in the future.

Whats the saying again, banana republic; build absolutely nothing anywhere near anyone. Thats what were like us Irish, ignorant to anything thats new.

Blackjack

Weathercheck wrote:

It was either the gas stayed out there with nothing done to it, or it created hundreds of jobs in the declining west of Ireland, brought millions of euro into the Irish economy and provided Ireland with a source of energy for 20 years.

It was a simple decision really and if these wacko protestors don't stop companies such as shell won't want to invest millions of there money in Ireland in the future.

Whats the saying again, banana republic; build anything nowhere anywhere near anyone. Thats what were like us Irish, ignorant to anything thats new.

Do you have anything to back up the "Hundreds of Jobs"?.

From what I've heard, there's only a hope of 9 jobs being created locally once this is all up and running.

Diogenes

J.R.HARTLEY wrote:

starving hungry abused (working for next to nothing) people vs illegal nimby protest who ignore saftey reports and a legally obtained injunction

your comparing James Connolly and Jim Larkin to these people, freedomfighters to troublemakers (what else do you call people breaking the injuction order.)
you're post is moronic and stinks of ignorance.
you really know your history don't you?

I do and one man's freedom fighter is another man's troublemaker.

The strikers were protrayed as communist troublemakers by the press in their day. And the business owners were perfectly legal to behave as they did. The strikers were fighting for a decent wage and decent standard of living, the shell to sea campaign is fighting aganist a dangerous gas pipeline to a gas field that has been sold off to a foreign company under terms that offer dubious benefit to this country.

And you're telling me I don't know much history?

These people aren't nimby's it's not as if the government cannot move a gas field is it?

Igy, the suggestion that a van moving at 5mph can run anything offer is daft, I think shoving the van in the direction of garda was stupid, but lets not blow it out of proportion here.

darkman2

There is something sinister about the protests in Mayo. SF's manipulation (as usual) is an attempt to hijack an issue (that IMO does not exist anymore) and make a national issue of it.

When it started it was about safety. The people protesting dont seem to have a clue what they are even talking about. Now the muppets like Joe Higgins and the Shinners have tried to twist it into an argument about resources. Typical of a marxist party I suppose but tbh at this stage I want to see them get a hiding from the Gardai or the army or whoever. They are breaking the law, end of story. Bertie is right. Get on with it Shell. Ignore the muppets:mad:

P.S Im also sick of hearing about these boggers.

lockon...

admiralgar wrote:

but having said that is it true that ireland is giving away the gas from corrib, i saw one of those posters saying that norway and other countries were getting the gas and ireland was getting none.
if that is the case then i have full support for shell to sea, if not then i have no support for them and they should not be allowed to stand (or fall) in the way of a development that will benifit the country.

Wrong, Wrong, Wrong! I hate this leftist propaganda. Heres what Noel Demsey said:

‘‘The interconnectors [pipes used to bring gas from Ireland to Britain] are only designed to operate in one way. They could be changed but that would require Ireland to be fully self-sufficient in gas.”

This is a Fact. Given Russia has doubled its gas prices to Georgia, the corrib gas field will give Ireland much needed secuirty when these increases are passed down to us.

Anways, how the protesters enjoyed their hiding!:D

gerrycollins

here are my two cents

people have a right

to protest

seek the assistance of the courts and judicial in assisting them in any matter they have grivence with

to go about their day without hinderance from others acting in an illegal matter

to live without fear of their lives from any external issue that they have no control over

Am i reasonably correct in relation to the shell to sea?

The locals would have had a chance to object during the planning process(and I know the beloved Ray Burke had a hand in it)

Anbord pleanala?

Independant review after the rossport five were imprisoned which the terms were agreed to by the locals

recently on the Right Hook radio show they were asking for a "totally impartial independant review" which george replied to "your gonna keep asking for them until you get the answer your loking for"

The builders stuck in the middle of this going about a days work what about them?

in fairness to the locals the pipe is running a little too long inland and aparently(i dont know how close exactly) very close to peoples houses but like what many have said the gardai gave ample warning and have been very patient as of late

The protesters broke the law thats obvious but the guards have been abused tested many times before this so the held their heads until this

no matter how much training you have we are all human put yourself in their shoes and imagine a car a a load of people charging at you dont say you would have used restraint

NUTLEY BOY

I have nothing to do with any of the parties involved in the issue.

However, if you want an insight in to how a lot of people are thinking about this issue look at the threads on www.indymedia.ie

Generally, Indymedia would not be my preferred reading but it is fascinating on this issue.:)

Whatever way it goes I wish that someone could get it sorted quickly as it seems to be only a matter of time before someone gets maimed or killed.

sunnyjim

Indymedia as a whole is completely biased.

Its not a source of information. Its a source of propaganda.

Its not only governments who know that, ya know?

Read the Irish Times, The Sunday Tribune, or any other broadsheet. They tend to have less of an agenda than indymedia.

Diogenes

sunnyjim wrote:

Indymedia as a whole is completely biased.

Its not a source of information. Its a source of propaganda.

Its not only governments who know that, ya know?

Read the Irish Times, The Sunday Tribune, or any other broadsheet. They tend to have less of an agenda than indymedia.

Firstly indymedia.ie isn't one coherant voice. It is a self publishing website to try and claim indymedia is biased for the protestors is like claiming your post is the boards.ie position on rossport gas protest.

yeah because the indo doesn't have a serious anti sf bias, and myers has the most rational and logical position in the world.

Media is biased full stop. Indymedia will give you the undiluted version of the protestors point of view, to try and claim a website cannot report facts and is inherantly biased, is a sweeping generalisation.

Wishbone Ash

Commander Vimes wrote:

em...he took some bribes gifts there a while back

He may have broken his party's code of conduct. How was that illegal?

Blackjack

Wishbone Ash wrote:

He may have broken his party's code of conduct. How was that illegal?

Eh, are you aware of who Ray Burke was???.

If this is not enough for you then I suggest you read Paul Williams book The Untouchables, which has AFAIR an entire chapter dedicated to the chap.

Diogenes

Wishbone Ash wrote:

He may have broken his party's code of conduct. How was that illegal?

So let me get this straight the behaviour of a senior politican who is in position of authority accepts bribes, and you claim that thats not a crime, a political taking a bride is a crime, I don't care how who claim you try wha whimiscal reason he took the money, that just contemptable.

The Ritz

but having said that is it true that ireland is giving away the gas
from corrib, i saw one of those posters saying that norway
and other countries were getting the gas and ireland was getting none.


Shell is a private company.
Why should they be allowed to take our natural resources?
Because they have money behind them?

Finally has it occurred to anyone that the licenses Shell
got for these explorations and exploitations of our national resources
were got from the esteemed Ray Burke lol.
No doubt they were totally above board and legit as
were all his dealings with big business , ahem !!

Why cant we do as the Norwegians did and bring the
gas ashore ourselves and let the Irish economy get
the benefit of these ( our ) resources.

Because, going by our track record, we'd probably do it at
a loss and thereby requiring
subsidies from the hard pressed tax payer

But hey I'm sure you're being "fed up" with the irish governments
dubious selling off a national asset under suspicious terms

Various quotes grouped together..............

The following is for the sake of clarity:

Ireland has a woeful reputation for prospectivity - ie the liklihood of finding commercially recoverable oil/gas resources. The only commercial find was the Kinsale fields, found and brought to shore by Marathon, and those fields are now near the end of their useful life - Irleand currently imports well over 80% of its gas from the UK. In the last year or two, as North Sea gas has begun to run down, the UK has itself become a net importer of gas and has begun the process of installing gas storage and connecting it self with Norway for future gas supplies. It gets a small percentage of its gas from Russia, a situation which is likely to increase in coming years in common with the rest of Europe.

The reason that the Corrib companies (the venture is co-owned by Marathon, Statoil and Shell, with the latter company acting as operator) own the gas is because those are the terms of their exploration licence (terms available to anyone)http://www.dcmnr.gov.ie/Natural/Petroleum+Affairs+Division/Licensing+Applications/Revised+Terms+for+Licensing+Option+Authorisation.htm - the odds on finding anything are so great that those are the terms needed to get anyone to do any exploration. The comparison with Norway is completely off target - one in three wells drilled in the Norwegian setup yields commercial, as oppoosed to two out of a couple of hundred attempts in Irish waters. As a further note of clarity, Shell were not originally involved in the project - they bought out Enterprise Oil, the original third partner in the venture, so suggestions of of shady delaings between the Government and Shell are completely off the wall. Equally risible is the suggestion that, having signed a deal that allows exploration companies to own anything they find, you let them explore at their own risk - if they find nothing then they've lost their investment, but if the do find something the State reneges on the deal, steps in and takes it over................ that's the stuff of banana republics and south american dictatorships, not the behaviour of a stable Western democracy.

Should the Government be doing the exploration ? Absolutely not......... the cost of repeated dry wells and the experience needed to do the research etc would be a constant drain on the country's finances.

Will the gas be sold to Norway/elsewhere ? Collossaly improbable - why would the Norwegians want the result of a (comparatively small by their standards) find off the west coast of Ireland when they're awash with the stuff themselves and are a large exporter? When Corrib (eventually) comes to market, it will be capable of meeting about 60% of Ireland's gas demand for a couple of years, then will tail off over quite a number of years until the field is exhausted. Why would anyone want to try to sell the gas into Europe when there's a ready market on their doorstep.

What's the benefit for Ireland ? Well having a very substantial part of our gas needs met from a field off our own coast instead of being subject to the vagaries of Russia's geology/geopolitcs mix would make a good start...... the gas could be expected to be cheaper because you'd be avoiding some of the costs of transmission, but that remains to be seen. Another benefit would be the possibility of bringing other finds off the west coast to market - the discovery combined with successful infrastructure in place should make further exploration more attractive, or at the least make it easier to bring future finds to shore. That always assumes that anyone will be able to persuade their Board to invest millions to drill in 400m+ depths in the Atlantic in the hope of finding something viable, after the shenannigans that have gone on up in Westport for the last 5+ years.

There's no doubt that mistakes were made in the communications between Enterprise in the first couple of years and latterly Shell and the local people in the area - Shell have owned up to that themselves, but all of the legal/safety issues have been dealt with and what now remains is a rump of self-interest which will not be satisfied with anything less than the gas being processed off-shore. Shell's position is that this would not be economically feasible and would be more dangerous that their existing proposal. This in effect means that the current campaign will not be satisfied unless Shell abandon the project - see what that does for the prospect of getting other companies to explore in Irish waters.

As for the issue of Garda behaviour, "Swampy" types, involvement of the shinners etc. I grew up in an era when if you stepped out of line or you were acting the mickey there was a fair chance you'd get a clip aroud the ear from the local Guard.......... so I'm afraid I have very little sympathy with so-called "professional protesters", Swampy types etc. I strongly believe in the right to protest and making your voice heard, but equally believe in the right of people to go about their business free from being harassed / blocked / threatened.

Grateful thanks, however, go to some of the more comical posts earlier in this thread............... classic stuff (the rapist pirates and the cliff ........... brilliant...)

The Ritz.

ArphaRima

While I am absolutely no fan of the Gardai, I do believe that they acted correctly in this case. If an illegal gathering (remember the injunction) is pushing a car at me, I will stop them. How do I stop them? With my truncheon. Easy. They were warned. They knew it would happen. Fair.

As for the aims of the protest. Pffft. I dont really care about their issues. Safety is not an issue. We have good laws to cover that. The locals knew the pipeline and facility would be built years in advance. Anybody could have looked up the terms of the deal. It will benefit the state and the people. I think its a thinly veiled attempt to stop a nearby "perceived hazard" from affecting house prices in the area. The same with the second runway in Dublin. EVERYONE knew it was planned. People built their homes on the proposed landing/departure path over the last 15 years, and NOW they complain!?

Right to protest. A thorny issue. I strongly believe in the right to protest. I also believe in the rule of law. They ARE at variance a lot of the time. There is no easy answer to this. Having to have a protest approved by the government and a plan submitted goes against the very idea of a protest. Then again, riots and property damage should be avoided. I have no answer to this question. I think it should be left at the discretion of the local ruling authorities(not the 23 yr old garda) for a best course of action. Its accountability I'm concerned with. The mayday events were a lesson in what we do NOT want.