Ban religion for gays' sake?

OliviaM

Read today's Forher topic features Elton John comments in an interview with Observer Music Monthly Magazine.

Nevyn

:rolleyes:

So ban them all even those that don't have issues with people who happen to be gay/bi.
Just because the 3 abrahamic religions and thier subdivisions have issues with it lets get rids of every religion pfff.

LegacyUser

'Lets just do a little summary of my thonoughts:

1. Elton wants religion banned because it (in his opinion) leads to and promoted hatred of gays.
2. If I asked for gays and their lifestyle to be banned from public, I would be most vehemently accused of hatred towards gays and most likely done for incitment to hatred.
3. When elton askes for religion to be banned, it follows that he is promoting hatred towards religion.
4. I hear no outcry.
5. Why is it ok for him to hate whilst at the same time asking for those he percieves to hate him and his type to be banned?
6. Typical gay culutre double standards.'

Hmm_Messiah

3 abrahamic religions don't have problems with gayness, jesus couldn't be arsed about sex or sexuality

3 very institutionalised religions have problems

and really their premise for it sucks mostly
the mostly quoted antigay biblical text is not about sexuality but the significance of hospitality in hebrew law and norms

Eltons Johns opinion on religion is pretty insignificant to me. I mean for example he suggests "lots of gay people love their religion" and "ban it" in the same sentence- huh ?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

'no man will lay with another man as he does with a woman, god Hates that'

what's that got to do with hospitality?

Orion

Well tbh that's a bull**** article. Elton is trying to paint religion as evil in as many ways as possible there. So he brings in homophobia, war, lack of discussion between religious leaders.

The main religions do not actually promote hatred of gays - they portray gays as misguided and in need of redemption. However, religion breeds fanatics who take things out of context and to extremes. Jehovah's Witnesses are a perfect example of this: "Thou shalt not take another's blood" was never meant to prohibit transfusions. The 'pro-lifers' who shoot doctors in medical clinics in the US are another example. (obviously the irony doesn't register with them).

I know some gay men who are deeply religious Christians and they see no conflict there. They would take great offense and this suggestion.

(I'll apologise now if anyone takes offense at my comments. I'm a straight atheist so I really have no place in this forum but the topic caught my eye on the front page )

Sangre

Ban all religion for humanity's sake.

Orion

Sangre wrote:

Ban all religion for humanity's sake.

Now that I can get behind

abetarrush

Yeah, dont ban it cos thousands of people go to war and die over it, but do ban it cos Elton's gettin slagged

I agree with him, but hes bein WAY selfish.

Hmm_Messiah

Mordeth wrote:

'no man will lay with another man as he does with a woman, god Hates that'

what's that got to do with hospitality?

well let's see - I said " the most quoted biblical text", which as far as I'm understand it is not the text you quoted.

I did scripture 20 yrs ago so am a bit rusty but I believe the text you quoted relates to law/norms for the Israeli people as a tribe/nation/society in that they are societal law for a less sophisticated people. Deity and government were intertwined but that does not mean thousands of years later its necessary to see them as "God's" word. From a Xian view point Jesus was a further and complete revelation of God and his will - he summarised everything by love thy neighbour, no words of hate, no negativity at all.

I was refering to the Sodom text which , to quote wikipedia

A more recent view (one that has been part of the Jewish interpretation for centuries) advocated by liberal theologians and biblical scholars is that the events in Sodom have to do with Abraham's hospitality and the gifts of God bestowed on him for his gracious action. First we see hospitality and the way we should act, then inhospitality in that the people of Sodom seek to mistreat and rape the newcomers. The biblical text itself seems to suggest that the sin is based in part on inhospitality to some (if not a major) extent

milod

Why do people get so hung up on biblical quotation - The Bible is completely contradictory and wholly unreliable as a historical account, dangerous at worst and comical at best, and yet we get get scripture quoting pissing contests every time we discuss religion.

Religion is a virus of the mind - it's simply an invidious and persuasive Meme that provides us with a mortality get-out clause.

I'd love to see religion banned, not just for it's horrendously corrupt and hpocritical treatment gays, but for the other horrors it sponsors daily, like war, psycological abuse, and stunting of scientific progress.

Hmm_Messiah

milod wrote:

, and yet we get get scripture quoting pissing contests every time we discuss religion.

Is there a major religion without Scripture ? If not is it not reasonable that a discussion on religion might touch on "sacred text" ?

Religion is a virus of the mind - it's simply an invidious and persuasive Meme that provides us with a mortality get-out clause.

There is an opposing view, held by mainly more involved in their spirituality , that religion does the opposite, that its non-existence would by far be the easier option regarding morality.

I'd love to see religion banned, not just for it's horrendously corrupt and hypocritical treatment gays, but for the other horrors it sponsors daily, like war, psycological abuse, and stunting of scientific progress.

You really believe religion is a Great Cause of all this ? these horrors you list seem to me to be the nature of Mankind, a human construct as much as religion is. Removing some institution it can be attributed to only leads to something else to be blamed rather than any really move (universally) to see these as Mankinds doing, and so intrinsically "our" doing .
Each horror you attribute to religion can be balanced by a good - in the end.

Knocking religion out of hand, or more correctly spirituality, is denial of the real impact it has in many people's lives, including many gay people.

Seeing religion as evil (with the exceptional good guy) is similar to others declaration that homosexuality is evil (with the exeptional nice guy- love the sinner not the sin etc etc etc)

Vinnie69

Macros42 wrote:

Well tbh that's a bull**** article. Elton is trying to paint religion as evil in as many ways as possible there. So he brings in homophobia, war, lack of discussion between religious leaders.

The main religions do not actually promote hatred of gays - they portray gays as misguided and in need of redemption. However, religion breeds fanatics who take things out of context and to extremes. Jehovah's Witnesses are a perfect example of this: "Thou shalt not take another's blood" was never meant to prohibit transfusions. The 'pro-lifers' who shoot doctors in medical clinics in the US are another example. (obviously the irony doesn't register with them).

I know some gay men who are deeply religious Christians and they see no conflict there. They would take great offense and this suggestion.

(I'll apologise now if anyone takes offense at my comments. I'm a straight atheist so I really have no place in this forum but the topic caught my eye on the front page )

What are you apologising for ? You are perfectly entitled to view your comments here. As one of your gay friends (but not deeply religious), I welcome you and all reasonable-minded boards people here.

milod

Hmm_Messiah wrote:

There is an opposing view, held by mainly more involved in their spirituality , that religion does the opposite, that its non-existence would by far be the easier option regarding morality.

Interesting point, but then morality moves with the times, or the Zeitgeist, not with religion - morality is not actually based on religious beliefs at all, if it were, we'd be stoning adulterers and homosexuals. Spirituality is not morality

Hmm_Messiah wrote:

You really believe religion is a Great Cause of all this ?

Yes! religion has always been used as justification, what else do you think would sweep in to take the place of religion as a justifier?

Hmm_Messiah wrote:

Seeing religion as evil (with the exceptional good guy) is similar to others declaration that homosexuality is evil (with the exeptional nice guy- love the sinner not the sin etc etc etc)

Sorry but that point is breathtakingly inane - you are comparing Faith (the belief in something with no proof whatsoever), with Biology or Nature.

If you're gay, you don't base your life on a ridiculous belief system centred around a divine being that watches over your every 'sin', you simply find members of your own sex attractive.

Hmm_Messiah

Sorry but that point is breathtakingly inane - you are comparing Faith (the belief in something with no proof whatsoever), with Biology or Nature

Once you've got your breath back.....
I was comparing attitudes/ judgements , I never mentioned Faith or Biology .


And as for other Justifiers for evils done that you attribute to religion - hatred, desire for power, prejudice etc - all secular human traits; but it's easier to say religion is the baddie than that...people are.

The_Minister

I'm straight, so I don't belong here, but I saw this thread on the main page

milod wrote:

Yes! religion has always been used as justification, what else do you think would sweep in to take the place of religion as a justifier?

Bollocks. Utter bollocks. More people were killed under Athiest Communism then ever by religion. (remember, old wars had much smaller armies).
People fight for power, for control, for wealth, for spite, for envy, as long as there has been humans, there have been those who have feared no God, and have done evil for their pleasure, and advancement.

milod

The_Minister wrote:

I'm straight, so I don't belong here, but I saw this thread on the main page

haha, better qualify your presence in case in case we think you're queer eh?!

The_Minister wrote:

Bollocks. Utter bollocks. More people were killed under Athiest Communism then ever by religion. (remember, old wars had much smaller armies).
People fight for power, for control, for wealth, for spite, for envy, as long as there has been humans, there have been those who have feared no God, and have done evil for their pleasure, and advancement.

Bollocks? really? fine language for a minister... but c'mon, do the figures, just because you can point to Stalin doesn't mean that he killed more people in the name of communism than religion. He operated a dangerous fundamentalist regime - quite similar to religious regimes over the centuries ironically.

My point is religion is a dangerous tool in the hands of PEOPLE - I didn't ascribe a personailty to religion. Fundamentalism of any sort can be used, communism being a fine example - but by far the most convenient construct is religion because it demands belief without proof and makes a virtue of unquestioning belief - the sort of beliefs that support harassment and oppression of Gays (remember which forum you're in now OK? I'm sure you only happened upon the debate and weren't cruising the forum for any other reason...):D

The_Minister

Actually Stalin did kill more people. The death toll of Communism (Russian) has been reliable estimated at 43 million (many go higher)(this includes those who were worked to death).
In comparison, the Spanish Inquisition only killed about 1250, and the portugese one about 1000. The original figures were overstated. The crusades only netted aout 1 million on each side.
Even, when you take all the other events into account, Athiests have killed far more people.


EDIT: If you count, China, or more controversially, Hitler's Germany then the toll rises higher. (Hitler's Germany is very debateable though, no-one is sure ehich side owns that)

milod

Hmm_Messiah wrote:

Once you've got your breath back.....
I was comparing attitudes/ judgements , I never mentioned Faith or Biology .

And as for other Justifiers for evils done that you attribute to religion - hatred, desire for power, prejudice etc - all secular human traits; but it's easier to say religion is the baddie than that...people are.

I could have sworn you said

Hmm_Messiah wrote:

Seeing religion as evil (with the exceptional good guy) is similar to others declaration that homosexuality is evil (with the exeptional nice guy- love the sinner not the sin etc etc etc)

so my point is that whether you compare attitutes to the two, or compare religion (faith) with homosexuality (biology), you are still comparing apples and oranges. My point is that the two are not similar, so must be considered with a different perspective!

And as for justifiers, once again you completely miss the point. Of course human vices are secular human traits! but as I said previously, my point is that religion is a dangerous tool in the hands of PEOPLE - I didn't ascribe a personality to religion. I spoke about JUSTIFIERS! Nobody ever went gay-bashing because and used their own atheism as a justification; Nobody ever shot a doctor who performed abortions and used their own atheism as a justification; Nobody ever scared a young child witless with fairy stories about hellfire and brimstone in the name of atheism.

Stalin was a bad man but he didn't consign millions to their deaths because he was an atheist - he's just an example of a bad man who used dogma of a different kind to justify his evil. If it helps clarify my point I also think Communism should be banned...

This thread probably belongs in another forum at this stage... though I despair for rational thought no matter what forum is used.

LegacyUser

The main religions do not actually promote hatred of gays - they portray gays as misguided and in need of redemption.

... which is still incredibly dangerous and in no way morally excusable. Some people can tolerate having enemies, but not "sick" that need to be "cured".

Annasopra

abetarrush wrote:

Yeah, dont ban it cos thousands of people go to war and die over it, but do ban it cos Elton's gettin slagged

I agree with him, but hes bein WAY selfish.

How is it selfish?

Transcendant

Bannig religion? First of all religion is just as much a force for good and gays as it is for anything else. This thread shows that we are not actually evolving as asociety but merely different people are in power now. Very dissapointing.

RD/ID

I don't believe any society has the right to "ban religion". Religion is largely manifested in the belief someone holds (just like for people under Stalins or Hitlers fascism) it's way of thinking (or not thinking). Religion and the similar aforementioned ideologies demanded unquestioning faith, while in most cases suppressing, violently, descent. To ban religion (or denying the Holocast for that matter) is to control what people say or think. That in itself is what I believe is is so wrong with religion. It prevents one seeing sense and cripples rational debate. Anyone who demands you blindly trust them is most certainly trying to take advantage of you. And any parent that teaches their offspring to blindly believe the bible is certainly guilty of child abuse. The bible is a sick and twisted work of very bad fiction.

Stark

RD/ID wrote:

And any parent that teaches their offspring to blindly believe the bible is certainly guilty of child abuse.

Just because you don't agree with what a parent teaches their children doesn't make it child abuse.

Hmm_Messiah

I agree with Stark

The bible is a sick and twisted work of very bad fiction.

What an over the top statement. Even resonates with the more extreme text from the bible ! of course thats some thousands of years old.

And there isn't exactly one bible is there Jews, Hindus, Christians, Islam all have Sacred books, as do Buddhists. To fail to see the good in the RC Bible, as the narrative progresses suggests some one criticising a book they''ve not read.
The creation myth is beautifully written, as is Book of Wisdom, many psalms etc

RD/ID

Stark wrote:

Just because you don't agree with what a parent teaches their children doesn't make it child abuse.

It is not simply that I believe the bible to be untrue. The bible is morally reprehensible by almost any modern standards. There are many reasons I believe the use of naturally naive children to perpetuate a parents religion is wrong, but the most obvious is the morally psychotic old testament. I am not judging the person just quantifying the consequences. Religion fundamentally distorts an individuals perception of reality, creating false fears and prejudices that undermine the decision making ability of holder.It does this without any rational justification (Because God said so is not a rational reason).

RD/ID

Hmm_Messiah wrote:

I agree with Stark



What an over the top statement. Even resonates with the more extreme text from the bible ! of course thats some thousands of years old.

And there isn't exactly one bible is there Jews, Hindus, Christians, Islam all have Sacred books, as do Buddhists. To fail to see the good in the RC Bible, as the narrative progresses suggests some one criticising a book they''ve not read.
The creation myth is beautifully written, as is Book of Wisdom, many psalms etc

The old testament is used by all three Abrahamic religions - thats over 50% of the worlds religious.

Unfortunately in this country the catholic church gets almost exclusive controls of our schools to promote their religion. So in fact, I have read the bible although I wish I hadn't. And I can tell you if we treated it as the word of god we would probably kill most of the population of earth for various indiscretions. I won't bother quoting texts as the bible mostly contradicts itself in the new testament or at the very least blurs the laws handed down by god and recorded in the o.t. Basically genocide, rape, slavery..... are all permissible depending on the circumstances. If it was right and divine 2000 or more years ago it should be right today. "Beautifully written" - hmm well i guess that is subjective - and can depend on how it's presented. I hear the Di Vinci code was very popular. :rolleyes:

Phenobarbidoll

The Da Vinci Code *snores*
Now there's 2 hours of my life I'm never getting back!

There are plenty of gay Christians (Jews, Muslims) out there, and Christians who support gay rights, marriage and adoption. They are not being represented by those fundie mouthpieces who rabbit on about morality and sex and keeping church and state united. Some people just have issues, full stop. Doesn't matter what religion or political party or whatever they support, they'll still be bigotted headcases.

analyse this

RD/ID wrote:

To ban religion (or denying the Holocast for that matter) is to control what people say or think.

is it not better to abolish one mans' beliefs than to abolish another man's life?

Nevyn

What is my life with out my beliefs ?
Empty.
Abolish my beliefs and you abolish my life.

Goodshape

Thaedydal wrote:

What is my life with out my beliefs ?
Empty.
Abolish my beliefs and you abolish my life.

No offence intended, but I find that very sad.

Surly your beliefs are the byproduct of your life, not visa-versa.