The poppy

vesp

Bambi wrote:

What really confuses me is all these people who enthuse about a red poppy as a way to remember Irish men who died in the service of a foreign army, dont seem to be at all enthuastic about celebrating the 4th of july or veterans day.

The poppy does not just remember Irishmen, it is above that type of thinking. It remembers men from many different countries around the world - and without their sacrifice our world would be much worse off. Unless you agree with what happened to the Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, communists etc

Bambi wrote:

The Irish men who died in the US armed forces aren't much use as a wedge to push an agenda I guess..

Relatively few Irish men volunteered to serve in the US armed forces compared to the British armed forces. In the 20th century alone, for example, hundreds of thousands of Irishmen ( born and bred in Ireland ) served in the British forces. I would hold those who served in the U.S. forces in the same esteem as those who served in the British forces.

Bambi wrote:

Not true. I knew at least one irish man who served in the royal navy during WW2 and was treated as a pariah by the rest of the ships crew as he was an irish catholic.

Maybe he was unpopular for other reasons ? Maybe he was just bad at his job and put his crewmates lives at risk ? If you put a bunch of men on a ship , with a common enemy from a different culture ( Nazi Germany ), with real risk of death if they do not pull together, they soon work as a team. Hundreds of thousands of Catholics served in the forces. Gerry Fitt was an Irish Catholic who served at sea with the British in WW2 and he never encountered any problems. Anyway, if what you say is true it certainly was not typical....I know many people who served in the British forces and all were treated fairly and equally....the same as people from the coal mines in England or Wales, the mountains of Scotland, individuals from S. Africa, New Zealand + Oz etc etc.

Blackjack

vesp wrote:

are you a bit surprised - or would you think it typical - Tallus from Tallaght had a teacher who "was from Antrim and went out of his way to put the south down at every possibility" ?

It's not surprising.

tallus

Slightly off topic but was listening to RTE Radio 1 earlier and Gerry Adams mentioned the very same teachers grandfather along with a list of other names who were executed by the British years back. Adams referred to the guy as a "Presbeterian Republican"
I tried google search on the guys name but it returned nothing .

Diorraing

vesp wrote:

Good for you. I know of others who had history teachers who done nothing but glorify the rebels of 1916, moan about the famine, the 800 years, why we should burn everything British except their coal etc. Of course not all teachers were like that.

God, imagine that a history teacher moaning about the famine. He should really rejoice that 1 million Irish people died and another million emigrated.
How dare a history teacher tell of how the 1916 men fought for Irish independence (such an unconscionable motive), how dare they allude to the 800 years of English oppression...in fact Vesp, lets write a letter to the Department of Education and have the whole history syllabus censored.

Flex

Diorraing wrote:

God, imagine that a history teacher moaning about the famine. He should really rejoice that 1 million Irish people died and another million emigrated.
How dare a history teacher tell of how the 1916 men fought for Irish independence (such an unconscionable motive), how dare they allude to the 800 years of English oppression...in fact Vesp, lets write a letter to the Department of Education and have the whole history syllabus censored.

Yea, whats so unreasonable about that? I mean c'mon, was it really that big a deal? Seriously though, Britain is our friend today, so its important we be good little Paddies and pretend we were always friends and ultra happy under British rule (until Republicans brainwashed everyone 90 years ago of course) :rolleyes:

vesp

tallus wrote:

Teacher I had was from Antrim and went out of his way to put the south down at every possibility.

Yeah yeah...Tallaght was always full of teachers from Antrim who "put down the south". How dare they put down the south....it was always a haven of tolerance, prosperity and economic well being.

vesp

Flex wrote:

until Republicans brainwashed everyone 90 years ago of course

Not quite everyone. The 120,000 Irishmen who deserted Ireland to fight for the auld enemy during our national emergency were traitors of course. Real Irishmen like Sean Russell ( who died on the Nazi u-boat) are the ones we should built public statues to. :rolleyes:

Dyr

Do you have some kind of issue with Sean Russell? You seem to mention him a lot

vesp wrote:

Maybe he was unpopular for other reasons? Maybe he was just bad at his job and put his crewmates lives at risk ? If you put a bunch of men on a ship , with a common enemy from a different culture ( Nazi Germany ), with real risk of death if they do not pull together, they soon work as a team. Hundreds of thousands of Catholics served in the forces

Maybe you're just casting aspersions on someone because their experience didint gel with your assertion that ALL irish men were treated well during their service? I thought you had the deepest respect for these men?

tallus

vesp wrote:

Yeah yeah...Tallaght was always full of teachers from Antrim who "put down the south". How dare they put down the south....it was always a haven of tolerance, prosperity and economic well being.

So you're saying I made this up ? As far as I'm concerned, the guy wasn't there to teach us his opinions, he was there to teach the syllabus, whether it was right wrong or indifferent.

Fratton Fred

vesp wrote:

Not quite everyone. The 120,000 Irishmen who deserted Ireland to fight for the auld enemy during our national emergency were traitors of course. Real Irishmen like Sean Russell ( who died on the Nazi u-boat) are the ones we should built public statues to. :rolleyes:

Exactly. Thousands of jews, Homosexuals, Blacks and disabled people put to death is a small price for a united Ireland.

The Swastika is a much better flag than the tricolour as well:rolleyes:

csk

vesp wrote:

Good for you. I know of others who had history teachers who done nothing

As I said that has to some extent been rectified, however slowly, as I can attest.

vesp wrote:

but glorify the rebels of 1916,

Is it any differenct to your implied glorification of those who died in WWII.
the fact is those who died in the Irish Revolution died for as much a just cause as those in WWII.

In fact you seem to have retrospectively apllied notions of why those men fought in WWII i.e to stop the Nazis and their policy of exterminating any one who didn't take their fancy.
It could be argued that those men joined the army for economic reasons.
not that makes their sacrifice any less poignant, it just should be noted its not quite as idealistic as you would imply.

vesp wrote:

moan about the famine, the 800 years,

is that any difference to your moaning a few pages back about the German oppression we could have suffered.

LordSutch

Slightly off topic maybe?, but as a matter of interest, does anybody know how many IRA volunteers died during the Republican rising of 1916?

Jimoslimos

I'm living in England so I'll give my tuppence worth. IMHO there does seem to a certain level of 'poppy facism' over here. However in saying that I do notice a big difference between Ireland and Britain in the rememberance/celebration of past conflicts. Not saying whether it is for better or worse but I can't imagine any Irish conflict occuring nearly 200 years ago celebrated with the same pomp as the battle of Trafalgar was recently.

With regards to the two world wars I understand it affected many parts of England directly (esp parts of Kent where I'm living) hence the strong feeling here missing in Ireland. My main annoyance though is when being told that these people died for 'my' freedom. No they died because they were soldiers fighting another group of soldiers for the most part unaware of the greater good that they were doing.

Also, Fratton Fred I notice how you mentioned the Swatsika as being a better flag than the Tricolour (jokingly of course;) ). This is a prime example of how a symbols original meaning (few people would actually be able to tell you what it meant before the nazis adopted it as their symbol) can be twisted to something else entirely. To a lesser extent it could be argued that the poppy now signifies British war-dead and triumphalism in world-wars rather than rememberance of all victims regardless of side.

Fratton Fred

I appreciate that the swastika (Or symbols similar to the Swastika) have been in existence for centuries before it was adopted by the Nazis, my point was that given he opportunity Sean Russell, a man honoured with a statue, would have welcomed the Nazis into Ireland. This actually supports my theory about Irish history being difficult to research as it is very selective (and subjective) in what is recorded.

Yes, in Britain we celebrate wars fought over 200 years ago, but Trafalgar was a very important point in British History (Although again, a lot of the history regarding Nelson is selective and the actual events of that day have become subject to folklore). As a result of Trafalgar, Britain (Or more so the Royal Navy) arguably became the worlds first “Super Power” and effectively removed the threat of attack from overseas until Hitler tried in 1940.

The first major threat to British sovereignty came from the German fleet built in the early 20th century, which was a major factor in the First World War.

Jimoslimos

Fratton Fred wrote:

I appreciate that the swastika (Or symbols similar to the Swastika) have been in existence for centuries before it was adopted by the Nazis, my point was that given he opportunity Sean Russell, a man honoured with a statue, would have welcomed the Nazis into Ireland. This actually supports my theory about Irish history being difficult to research as it is very selective (and subjective) in what is recorded.

Ah yes all history tends to be selective & subjective to a large extent. What's that saying "history is written by the winners".

Going a little OT here but to address your point, yes unfortunately the nazis would have probably been welcomed into Ireland by many others at the time. Of course to a lot of the public at the time the nazis would have been seen as just a large superpower in dispute another large superpower, Britain. Much of the reports coming out of Germany may have been dismissed as propaganda (which was prevalent on both sides at the time). Indeed during earlier attempts for independence efforts were made to involve the French to rid Ireland of the British presence.

Thankfully none of this came to pass since in my belief, liberation by any foreign army (regardless of intentions) inevitably leads to much worse problems (Iraq for example :rolleyes: )

csk

Jimoslimo wrote:

yes unfortunately the nazis would have probably been welcomed into Ireland by many others at the time. Of course to a lot of the public at the time the nazis would have been seen as just a large superpower in dispute another large superpower, Britain

I would like you to maybe explain exactly what you mean by this.

if its what I think you mean then that's wholly uinfair if not downright wrong.
''the public'' if I'm getting your meaning would not have welcomed the Nazis. the Irish Governemnt was fully prepared to repel any invasion, numerous requests were made to the British and U.S. Gov for arms and equippment and the people at large would not have accepted another foreign power occupying Ireland.
Maybe certain short sighted people, members of the IRA etc. might have seen a Nazi invasion as positive step to achieve their goals but the ''public'' wouldn't.

Flex

vesp wrote:

Not quite everyone. The 120,000 Irishmen who deserted Ireland to fight for the auld enemy during our national emergency were traitors of course. Real Irishmen like Sean Russell ( who died on the Nazi u-boat) are the ones we should built public statues to. :rolleyes:

Look true, sorry, I mean vesp, who called them traitors? And why do you keep mentioning Sean Russell, has anyone tried to defend his actions or something?

Out of interest, do you believe the Irishmen who fought in the 1st and 2nd World War in the British Army enlisted out of some loyalty to Britain?

Iv said already I have no issues honouring the Irishmen who died in the world wars, but I wont honour any Britons. Id be more than happy to wear shamrocks or something to show rememberance for them.

A Dub in Glasgo

Now it begins to make sense re vesp

vesp

Flex wrote:

Out of interest, do you believe the Irishmen who fought in the 1st and 2nd World War in the British Army enlisted out of some loyalty to Britain?

Some did. Others fought for a multitude of reasons ; eg the defence of little Catholic Belgium in WW2, economic reasons, adventure etc.

vesp

csk wrote:

''the public'' if I'm getting your meaning would not have welcomed the Nazis.

Sean Russell and his shinner comrades would have.

csk wrote:

the Irish Governemnt was fully prepared to repel any invasion,

:rolleyes:

csk wrote:

numerous requests were made to the British and U.S. Gov for arms and equippment .

Numerous requests were made by the Allies for some co-operation in defeating the Nazis, by at least offering some ports along the western seaboard during the battle of the Atlantic.....

Numerous requests were made by Jews before / during WW2 for asylum in Ireland but were ignored.

csk wrote:

the people at large would not have accepted another foreign power occupying Ireland.

Do you think the Nazis would have listened to "the people at large" any more than in other countries they overan ? The poor unfortunate Jews would have been rounded up for sure, but then again sure the native Irish ( Redemptorists ) more or less expelled them out of Limerick some years before WW2, did they not.

Blackjack

Fratton Fred wrote:

Sean Russell, a man honoured with a statue,

I'm pretty sure there's a couple of statues of Cromwell and Churchill, although they're hardly erected to remember Cromwell's antics in Ireland, and Churchill's actions in Iraq against local Tribesmen, but they're to celebrate these men's Parlimentary achievements and leadership at certain times as opposed to butchery of local population.

Not that Sean Russell's involvement in Nazi Germany was anything to celebrate, quite the opposite in fact, and it seems it's been vandalised a number of times since he was "honoured".

My point is that there are statues for those that have done good and evil, perhaps the motive behind the statue was to do with his participation in the rising, rather than his involvement with the Nazi's.

Blackjack

vesp wrote:

:rolleyes:

there were plans to attempt to repel any invasions. How successful this would have been we'll never know.

vesp wrote:

Numerous requests were made by the Allies for some co-operation in defeating the Nazis, by at least offering some ports along the western seaboard during the battle of the Atlantic.....

So do you think we should have allowed the British access to Ports, given that Ireland had only recently become independant, not long previously had an economic battle with the UK, and still had a large amount of anti-english feeling in the country?. Personally I think Dev did the right thing by not giving the ports - it probably would have created another civil war in the country.

vesp wrote:

Numerous requests were made by Jews before / during WW2 for asylum in Ireland but were ignored.

Britain was not hugely receptive to the Jews before the war either, although they did take in a large number who would have had to travel to/through the UK to get to Ireland in the first instance.

Dyr

vesp wrote:

Sean Russell and his shinner comrades would have.

I'll ask again: do you have some specific issue with Sean Russell? Or is just a problem with anyone who fought for this countries independance rather than the british empire?

Hagar

Bambi wrote:

Or is just a problem with anyone who fought for this countries independance rather than the british empire?

Nail on head.

LordSutch

Anyone got an answer to Post #223?

Hagar

I can't attest to the accuracy, but in the absence of any other reply...

http://www.stephen-stratford.co.uk/the_casualties.htm

vesp

Blackjack wrote:

Britain was not hugely receptive to the Jews before the war either, although they did take in a large number .

They took in between 90,000 and 150,000 , depending on your source. What did Ireland do about taking in Jewish refugees before or during the war ? Nothing, except intimidate the few Jews there were in Limerick out of the place.

vesp

Blackjack wrote:

there were plans to attempt to repel any invasions. How successful this would have been we'll never know.

:rolleyes: How successfull Paddy and his pitchforks would have been against the Luftwaffe and the German forces. :rolleyes: "we'll never know":D

Blackjack

vesp wrote:

:rolleyes: How successfull Paddy and his pitchforks would have been against the Luftwaffe and the German forces. :rolleyes: "we'll never know":D

Is that the best you can offer to the thread?.

vesp

Blackjack wrote:

So do you think we should have allowed the British access to Ports,

If the allies had access to just one port in the s.west or west of Ireland it would have saved a lot of Irish and other allied lives - at a time when the battle of the atlantic could have decided the outcome of the war.