The poppy

Blackjack

vesp wrote:

They took in between 90,000 and 150,000 , depending on your source. What did Ireland do about taking in Jewish refugees before or during the war ? Nothing, except intimidate the few Jews there were in Limerick out of the place.

Out of Limerick, and they moved to Cork as a result. Remarkably one of them (Goldberg) found a lot of support from Sinn Fein around the time.
There were pogroms all over Europe at the time, and Mosley's facists in London were inciting the same sort of behaviour.

Blackjack

vesp wrote:

If the allies had access to just one port in the s.west or west of Ireland it would have saved a lot of Irish and other allied lives - at a time when the battle of the atlantic could have decided the outcome of the war.

You conveniently ignore the Domestic effect of doing so.

csk

vesp wrote:

If the allies had access to just one port in the s.west or west of Ireland it would have saved a lot of Irish and other allied lives - at a time when the battle of the atlantic could have decided the outcome of the war.

So what your saying is we should have given the Allies a port and everything would have been alright. I can imagine it now.

"there ye go lads, ye take cobh there so ye can, mind you its only a lend, ye better look after her. we'll be wantin that back the way we got it.

What's that Germany, a declaration of war you say, ya wha' are ya mad, sure it's only a lend like, no harm meant sure what's a port between friends.
Sure while we're giving them out ye may as well have one, ah go on feck it, sure ye may as well come over and stay it's been a bit quiet since we got rid of that other crowd.
sure we're the Land of the hundred thousand welcomes don't ya know" :rolleyes:

Really is your argument going to go anywhere outside of counterfactual bullshít and insinuations.

Jimoslimos

csk wrote:

I would like you to maybe explain exactly what you mean by this.

if its what I think you mean then that's wholly uinfair if not downright wrong.
''the public'' if I'm getting your meaning would not have welcomed the Nazis. the Irish Governemnt was fully prepared to repel any invasion, numerous requests were made to the British and U.S. Gov for arms and equippment and the people at large would not have accepted another foreign power occupying Ireland.
Maybe certain short sighted people, members of the IRA etc. might have seen a Nazi invasion as positive step to achieve their goals but the ''public'' wouldn't.

Ah ok 'welcomed' might be a bit of a strong word (and yes I was referring to those people who would have seen it as a means to an end,) but imagine the scenario - the nazis would have walked over most of Europe including Britain do you think we would have been in a position to meet them in arms. Nope, the probable situation would have to my mind be something similar to Iraq at the moment, initial acceptance followed by escalating attacks)

With any stance of neutrality there will be a certain amount of hedge-sitting. Fact. Now before any unionists (a bit rare here I'd say) start getting on their moralistic high horses it should be pointed out that our reasons for staying neutral were probably more valid than the british going to war. Saving Jews, homosexuals from persecution in nazi concentration camps wasn't the reason Britain went to war (and you can bet that it wouldn't have found much support in britain at the time if it was).

Now when you look at reasons for staying neutral;
1) A country of our size engaging in open-warfare with Germany - suicidal
2) Would we really have been guaranteed security by Britain? Only way this might have happened would be if the British re-occupied - hmm not ideal.
3) Did we have justification? Yes the nazis were doing pretty nasty things but not much people knew the extent (including those in britain). It didn't help that anything that was reported was being twisted to fit the propaganda/spin at the time.

Anyhow veering back to the main point in this thread - would I wear a poppy? No. Why? It (to me) has become a symbol of triumphalism/misguided notions of heroism in war.

vesp wrote:

How successfull Paddy and his pitchforks would have been against the Luftwaffe and the German forces. "we'll never know"

How successful Saddam,Osama et al., and his pitchforks/home-made explosives would have been against the US and the British forces. "we DO know":D

vesp

Jimoslimos wrote:

How successful Saddam,Osama et al., and his pitchforks/home-made explosives would have been against the US and the British forces. "we DO know":D

Blackjack wrote "there were plans to attempt to repel any invasions. How successful this would have been we'll never know."


So you think in the event of a German invasion of Ireland ( well, Germany did occupy many other small countries ), Paddy would have been successful in repelling the Nazis out of Ireland ? I think you would acknowledge in open warfare the Irsh air force , Irish navy and Irish army were no match for the Nazi war machine. A match for Podge and Rodge or the Simpsons perhaps. Ever look at countries where there was a resistance movement and see how this was dealth with by the Nazis ?

Hagar

vesp wrote:

So you think in the event of a German invasion of Ireland ( well, Germany did occupy many other small countries ), Paddy would have been successful in repelling the Nazis out of Ireland ? I think you would acknowledge in open warfare the Irsh air force , Irish navy and Irish army were no match for the Nazi war machine. A match for Podge and Rodge or the Simpsons perhaps. Ever look at countries where there was a resistance movement and see how this was dealth with by the Nazis ?

I find the tone of your posts offensive. The term Paddy in this instance is obviously racist. I urge other posters not to respond to this individual in future.

Dyr

vesp wrote:

So you think in the event of a German invasion of Ireland ( well, Germany did occupy many other small countries ), Paddy would have been successful in repelling the Nazis out of Ireland ? I think you would acknowledge in open warfare the Irsh air force , Irish navy and Irish army were no match for the Nazi war machine.

Nah, Hagar lets respond in kind:

I dunno vesp, paddy did pretty well kicking one gang of viscious racial supremicists out of this country in the 1920s, he might just manage the germans too

But then we have to factor in the fact the germans were far more effective war machine than the british by the 1940s as proven by them kicking the BEF's arse all the way across france and back over the channel.:D

brianthebard

vesp wrote:

Blackjack wrote "there were plans to attempt to repel any invasions. How successful this would have been we'll never know."


So you think in the event of a German invasion of Ireland ( well, Germany did occupy many other small countries ), Paddy would have been successful in repelling the Nazis out of Ireland ? I think you would acknowledge in open warfare the Irsh air force , Irish navy and Irish army were no match for the Nazi war machine. A match for Podge and Rodge or the Simpsons perhaps. Ever look at countries where there was a resistance movement and see how this was dealth with by the Nazis ?

Jesus Christ I don't know why this is even being discussed. firstly Germany didn't invade Ireland, so this contributes nothing to the poppy issue.

Secondly, Hitler's plans for living space rested in the east. That's what the war with Russia was about. He hoped that once the war was over there could be an agreement made with the west European countries and they would no longer be occupied. For this reason the army was ordered to stay within the Geneva conventions guidelines.

But none of this has to do with the poppy!!!!

vesp

Ever look at countries where there was a resistance movement and see how this was dealth with by the Nazis ? Despite what Blackjack may think, in open warfare the Irsh air force , Irish navy and Irish army were no match for the Nazi war machine. As I `said, a match for Podge and Rodge or the Simpsons perhaps.

vesp

brianthebard wrote:

Secondly, Hitler's plans for living space rested in the east. That's what the war with Russia was about. He hoped that once the war was over there could be an agreement made with the west European countries and they would no longer be occupied.

Total rubbish. Hitler would not " unoccupy " countries and places it has already invaded in the west, like Holland, France, Norway, Jersey etc You think Hitler would send whatever Jews remained alive from those countries home after the war in the east , from his concentration camps, as all would live happy ever more ? Rubbish. After the war , it was discovered that in the event of Hitlers successful takeover of this part of Europe, people from these islands would be put to work - by those from his master race - building an autobahn to the far east. ie useful extermination.

brianthebard

vesp wrote:

Total rubbish. Hitler would not " unoccupy " countries and places it has already invaded in the west, like Holland, France, Norway, Jersey etc You think Hitler would send whatever Jews remained alive from those countries home after the war in the east , from his concentration camps, as all would live happy ever more ? Rubbish. After the war , it was discovered that in the event of Hitlers successful takeover of this part of Europe, people from these islands would be put to work - by those from his master race - building an autobahn to the far east. ie useful extermination.

FFS, where did I say that he was going to do any of that? You are just putting words in my mouth. I never said that he would leave the jews where they are, just that he was not planning on taking over the western part of Europe, since he didn't have a "racial issue" with the majority of those countries in the way he had with slavs and jews. But this isn't even a fu|cking issue because it never happened and has nothing to do with the fu|cking thread.

vesp

brianthebard wrote:

FFS, where did I say that he was going to do any of that? You are just putting words in my mouth. I never said that he would leave the jews where they are, just that he was not planning on taking over the western part of Europe, since he didn't have a "racial issue" with the majority of those countries in the way he had with slavs and jews. But this isn't even a fu|cking issue because it never happened and has nothing to do with the fu|cking thread.

As I said, it was Blackjack who wrote "there were plans to attempt to repel any invasions. How successful this would have been we'll never know."

Are you not aware that in the countries and terrorities he did invade that he did get the Jews there ( along with other individuals his regime may have had an issue with ) rounded up and sent to concentration camps ? It might not be " a fu|cking issue " to you as you so charmingly put it, but I can assure you it did happen.


The poppy remembers those who died ( and helps the survivors in a practical way where necessary as much as practical ). Those who died in the two world wars for example , came from many different countries. However, if nobody stood up to Germany in both wars, the world would be a much different place. We should remember those who gave their tomorrows so we have our freedom today.

vesp

brianthebard wrote:

FFS, where did I say that he was going to do any of that?

You wrote that " He ( Hitler ) hoped that once the war was over there could be an agreement made with the west European countries and they would no longer be occupied. " I simply corrected you by pointing out the truth of the situation.

brianthebard

vesp wrote:

You wrote that " He ( Hitler ) hoped that once the war was over there could be an agreement made with the west European countries and they would no longer be occupied. " I simply corrected you by pointing out the truth of the situation.

What truth?? The situation didn't happen, what you are saying is speculation!!

vesp

I pointed out what did happen, and what Nazi plans really were for these islands if they won the war. I wrote " Hitler would not " unoccupy " countries and places it has already invaded in the west, like Holland, France, Norway, Jersey etc You think Hitler would send whatever Jews remained alive from those countries home after the war in the east , from his concentration camps, as all would live happy ever more ? Rubbish. After the war , it was discovered that in the event of Hitlers successful takeover of this part of Europe, people from these islands would be put to work - by those from his master race - building an autobahn to the far east. ie useful extermination."

brianthebard

When has bringing the jews into an argument ever made a difference???

vesp

brianthebard wrote:

When has bringing the jews into an argument ever made a difference???

You wrote "Hitler's plans for living space rested in the east. That's what the war with Russia was about. He hoped that once the war was over there could be an agreement made with the west European countries and they would no longer be occupied." If you really believe that, you probably think Hitler liked the Jews as well and never did any of them any harm. Next you will be saying, " ah shure Hitler was'nt a bad lad. He looked in to working with our rep. sean Russell against the auld enemy "

You wrote that "he ( Hitler) was not planning on taking over the western part of Europe, since he didn't have a "racial issue" with the majority of those countries in the way he had with slavs and jews."

brianthebard

I was pulling the p|ss out of you, this thread has become completely ridiculous at this stage.

vesp

You are just trying to cover up for your own stupidity, your lack of knowledge and your poor moral position , seeing as you lost the argument.

brianthebard

vesp wrote:

You are just trying to cover up for your own stupidity, your lack of knowledge and your poor moral position , seeing as you lost the argument.

If that helps you then fine.

oscarBravo

vesp wrote:

You are just trying to cover up for your own stupidity, your lack of knowledge and your poor moral position , seeing as you lost the argument.

Guess who just earned another week on his ban.

LordSutch

I Have just learnt that between One Hundred & Fifty & One Hundred & Eighty Rebels died during the 1916 Rising! should the Poppy be worn to remember them also? in addition to the "Fifty Five Thousand" who died fighting with the Allies.

Fratton Fred

ArthurF wrote:

I Have just learnt that between One Hundred & Fifty & One Hundred & Eighty Rebels died during the 1916 Rising! should the Poppy be worn to remember them also? in addition to the "Fifty Five Thousand" who died fighting with the Allies.

I thought that was what the Lilly was for?

Blackjack

vesp wrote:

As I said, it was Blackjack who wrote "there were plans to attempt to repel any invasions. How successful this would have been we'll never know."

I did, and the fact of the matter is we'll never know as it never happened.

You were also the one who was not aware of Lord Haw Haw's Loyalism.:rolleyes:

LordSutch

In Flanders field the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.

If ye break with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

walrusgumble

vesp wrote:

If the allies had access to just one port in the s.west or west of Ireland it would have saved a lot of Irish and other allied lives - at a time when the battle of the atlantic could have decided the outcome of the war.

maybe, but maybe the german air force would be pilling down bombs at the port and surrounding areas just like in liverpool or belfast. oh ye presence of british again in place like cobh would hardly be welcomed. lots of potential deaths there. do not for one minute suggest germans would not try and attack the ports, one minute we give ports then next it be barracks and camps.and dont for one moment suggest that innocent people who would die were some how unlucky but greater deeds happened, dev had a duty to protect this then fragile state from any further involvement from warfare. pitty term neutrality is not used to its real term today (before anyone corrects me, am aware of concessions given to us and british soliders during ww2)

sorry if this appears to be rude, i assure you that was not the intention but i couldnt have put any better than what csk said

walrusgumble

Blackjack wrote:

I did, and the fact of the matter is we'll never know as it never happened.

You were also the one who was not aware of Lord Haw Haw's Loyalism.:rolleyes:

i genuinely, dont know too much on him, thought he was just taking the pi&s when he went on radio and thought english (fair enough) did not see the funny side to it. was there more to him?

walrusgumble

vesp wrote:

Blackjack wrote "there were plans to attempt to repel any invasions. How successful this would have been we'll never know."


So you think in the event of a German invasion of Ireland ( well, Germany did occupy many other small countries ), Paddy would have been successful in repelling the Nazis out of Ireland ? I think you would acknowledge in open warfare the Irsh air force , Irish navy and Irish army were no match for the Nazi war machine. A match for Podge and Rodge or the Simpsons perhaps. Ever look at countries where there was a resistance movement and see how this was dealth with by the Nazis ?

are you irish?, whats with the paddy reference its bang out of order. by the way i am sure you heard about guerilla warfare, but i would conceed with you on one point, in that retailation from nazis=possible extermination within 3 days

sligobhoy67

Blackjack wrote:

I'm pretty sure there's a couple of statues of Cromwell and Churchill, although they're hardly erected to remember Cromwell's antics in Ireland, and Churchill's actions in Iraq against local Tribesmen, but they're to celebrate these men's Parlimentary achievements and leadership at certain times as opposed to butchery of local population.

Not that Sean Russell's involvement in Nazi Germany was anything to celebrate, quite the opposite in fact, and it seems it's been vandalised a number of times since he was "honoured".

My point is that there are statues for those that have done good and evil, perhaps the motive behind the statue was to do with his participation in the rising, rather than his involvement with the Nazi's.

Vesp keep baning on about Sean Russell! "Sean Russell died on a Nazi u-boat" - the inference he is trying to make is that Russell was a Nazi - this is of course balls! Vesp is trying to paint the picture of Russell in Nazi uniform, adorned with a swazticha (SP?) on his sleeve and got killed after his german u-boat was bomb by the allieds!

In true Russell was in German to arrange for the release of Irish POW's and died of natural causes after the Germans were returning him to Ireland.

Fratton Fred

sligobhoy67 wrote:

In true Russell was in German to arrange for the release of Irish POW's and died of natural causes after the Germans were returning him to Ireland.

Oh good, that clears that one up.

can you also tell me how Santa gets down our chimney as we have a gas fire but he always manages to bring us presents.