Anyone caught over the limit?

ArthurJ

Has anyone, or do they know of anyone, been caught carrying ammo in excess of their cert limit and what happened. The amounts I had in mind were 200/300 instead of 100 rounds.

Sparks

Not worth the risk Authur, just get the limit on your cert raised. To 500 is doable pretty much by default - request your europass (which you must be given by law once your certificate has been granted). It has a 500 round limit - point this out to the Firearms Officer and ask him to raise the limit on your cert to match.

Umiq88

Its not the sort of thing that can be easily checked and the guards dont bother with it at all afaik. Ive bought the odd carton of cartridges to shoot a few clays and haven't had a problem i don't see the point in going through the hassle to upgrade the cert

ArthurJ

Sparks: I've read a lot about the Europass. If it entitiles someone to carry 500 rounds why get the cert amended, or doe's it only apply if outside the state. Anywhere I can read about it because when I mentioned it to my FO he said "you don't want go there" whatever that mean's. Anyway if the cert has to be amended then its a pointless exercise as I can't get it amended in the first place. (I hope that make's sense)

Sparks

The europass and the cert are sortof like a passport and a visa arrangement Arthur. They're related quite closely, but they are seperate items. As to what your Garda said, that was downright rude of him. You have a legal entitlement to the europass; and it's wholly reasonable to raise the cert's limit to 500 or so rounds if you're shooting more than that in a year.

Why do you say the cert cannot be amended?

ArthurJ

Sparks my FO told me the Super would not increase it. My FO is very helpful and in case I gave the wrong impression, he is not in the least bit smart. That said I don't think he knows much about the europass. What exactly are the europass entitlement's. Is there a web page with some info on it. I'm thinking that if I had the info I could have a chat to him about it. The last thing I want to do is spout off about something I know nothing about.

de_shadow

I found this when looking into th europass theres a mention of it on the bottom of the page.
http://www.justice.ie/80256E01003A21A5/vWeb/pcJUSQ5YBJWM-en

Vegeta

de_shadow wrote:

I found this when looking into th europass theres a mention of it on the bottom of the page.
http://www.justice.ie/80256E01003A21A5/vWeb/pcJUSQ5YBJWM-en

I wouldn't take that site as gospel

it says that you cant shoot animals with air rifles, which is untrue

ArthurJ

This morning I contacted my FO, Dept of Justice, Garda HQ and asked about the europass, none of them knew anything about it. However they each asked the same question "where did you hear that" quickly followed by "whats a bulletin board"
The only glimmer of hope was that my FO said he would enquire when he gets time, but in the meantime if I could find out about it he would pass the info on to the Super.
So doe's anyone actually know is it statute law, EU law or whatever.
The europass is routinely quoted on this forum, so somebody must have the detail's. Hello Sparks!

Sparks

It's EU law (Council Directive 91/477/EEC), enacted in Irish law (SI #362/1993).

A europass, and an article 7, are both legal entitlements of anyone granted a firearms licence under Irish law. From section 9 of the above SI:

(2) ( a ) Where a person is granted, or is the holder of, a firearm certificate under the Firearms Acts, he shall be entitled to be issued by the Superintendent of the Garda Síochána for the district in which he resides with—
(i) a European Firearms Pass containing the required particulars; and
(ii) a document stating that the holder of the firearm certificate has the consent of the competent authority of the State, for so long as the certificate remains in force, to any purchase or acquisition by him in another Member State of any firearm or ammunition to which the certificate relates; and an application for the issue of a document falling within clause (i) or (ii) may be made at the same time as an application for a firearm certificate or at any time subsequently while the certificate remains in force.

And the argument goes that under section 8 of the SI, the ammunition limit on the Europass (by default 500 rounds) could be read as the ammunition limit that the person could have in their possession:

8. The provisions of the Firearms Acts and other relevant statutes, including provisions relating to powers of the Garda Síochána and Customs Officers, shall extend to a European Firearms Pass or other document to which these Regulations relate and a reference in those enactments to a firearm certificate shall, where the context so admits, include reference to any such document.

In fact, that 500 round limit on the europass is for when you're travelling outside the state, but the arguement then is, "if you'll trust me with it abroad, why won't you trust me with it here?", or something along those lines.

Thing to remember is that the europass isn't really complied with, even here. For example, section 9 of the SI reads:

( c ) The period specified in the European Firearms Pass as the period for which it is to be valid shall be whichever is the shorter of the following;
(i) the period ending on the expiry of a certificate relating to a firearm identified in the pass
(ii) the maximum period for the duration of that pass.

But my europass had a five year duration for firearms with a one year certificate, last I checked...

ArthurJ

Sparks that's a great post. All become's clear. Just what I was looking for.

Degsy

I was up in newry recenty checking out the price of ammunition and not surprisingly it turned out to be a lot cheaper than here.However the bloke in the shop told me there wa some massive and convoluted red tape in order to purchase with a southern irish certificate.Does anybody know the correct procedure?

Sparks

Show up with Article 7 and Europass from the ROI and visitor's permit from NI (obtained from the PSNI, but you need to be sponsored by a shooter up north), buy ammo, go home. At least, that's what the law says. There's bound to be confusion, both the ROI and NI have just changed their firearms acts completely in the past few years.

Degsy

Sparks wrote:

Show up with Article 7 and Europass from the ROI and visitor's permit from NI (obtained from the PSNI, but you need to be sponsored by a shooter up north), buy ammo, go home. At least, that's what the law says. There's bound to be confusion, both the ROI and NI have just changed their firearms acts completely in the past few years.

Sweet Jesus:rolleyes:

Sparks

That's not that convoluted Degsy. You want convoluted, try doing a restatement of the firearms acts

Degsy

And wher does one get a sponsor in the north?walk into a bar on the shankill road?:D

Sparks

The gun dealer you're buying the rounds off? Know any target shooters up there? etc, etc...
It's a bloody big step back from the old system, but it's not insurmountable. Get your local club to talk to a club up north and buy in bulk with a few others.

Degsy

Sparks wrote:

The gun dealer you're buying the rounds off? Know any target shooters up there? etc, etc...
It's a bloody big step back from the old system, but it's not insurmountable. Get your local club to talk to a club up north and buy in bulk with a few others.

I could ask the gun dealer allright...it STILL sounds convoluted though!

Sparks

Try filling out EU research grant paperwork sometime Degsy

newby.204

In relation to the actual post my fao or super issued both my certs for a shotgun and rifle with 500rnds on them!!!

maglite

can i go into a local shop and use the pass to buy bullets

the pass being a creidt card like thing asik, would be more durable and could be carried all the time

civdef

No.

Sparks

In the ROI maglite? No, not unless you're from another EU state. If you're Irish you're meant to use your cert. And when did the Europass change from being a small blue booklet to being a credit card yoke?

Hezz700

Can you hold 100 cartridges for each of your shotgun certs or are you still limited to 100 no matter how many indinvidual certs you have in a particular caliber or gauge??;)

Hezz

Sparks

Per cert, not per calibre Hezz... though IIRC you can have multiple shotguns per cert, just to confuse things.

Hezz700

Sparks

So just to clarify , i can go into the local firearms dealer with my 3 existing shotgun certs and walk out with 100 rounds for each?

Hezz

Rovi

Hezz700 wrote:

Sparks

So just to clarify , i can go into the local firearms dealer with my 3 existing shotgun certs and walk out with 100 rounds for each?

Hezz

That's correct. You're licenced to possess 300 rounds of ammunition in total between the three licences, so the shop can legally sell you 300 rounds.
Technically though, if you have any more ammunition at home (or wherever), you're not legally supposed to purchase the full 300.

:rolleyes:

Hezz700

Thanks for that Sparks/Rovi

Of course i would always fire the last round off before i would go purchase so more be it for my shotguns or my rifles;)

Hezz

Sparks

And of course, you would never use a cartridge for one 12ga shotgun in another 12ga shotgun for which you would have a seperately-maintained box of shells. And until that box was empty, you'd never buy another hundred shells to go into it...

Hezz700

Sparks wrote:

And of course, you would never use a cartridge for one 12ga shotgun in another 12ga shotgun for which you would have a seperately-maintained box of shells. And until that box was empty, you'd never buy another hundred shells to go into it...

Of course!:D

Rovi

Sparks wrote:

And of course, you would never use a cartridge for one 12ga shotgun in another 12ga shotgun for which you would have a seperately-maintained box of shells. And until that box was empty, you'd never buy another hundred shells to go into it...

And here was me thinking I was the only one who did this...