Eircon going the wrong way??

kleefarr

Eircom future profits .

Even though they say that the raised profits from increasd line rental will go into delevoping the telephone network system, don't they have any ther ways of increasing capital?

Increasing line rental will surely put people off.

Paulw

I welcome Eircom's decision to invest more. Ok, I work for a company who supplies to Eircom, and I also have shares in Eircom.

But, in saying that, what choice have people in relation to line rental? The competition will also increase their prices too. I can't see it changing that much in the overall market.

ongarite

Problem is Ireland has the highest line rental in Europe by a long way. I can only blame Eircom for the terrible state of this countrys telecoms infrastructure.
OK maybe Comreg and the Government over the last 10 years also for doing sweet f all. The EU ascension countries have better telecoms and broadband infrastructure than us.

Sponge Bob

In a developed contry some 80-90% of households typically have a landline. In Ireland , where we have the highest line rental ON THE PLANET , the penetration has started to drop like a stone and is below 70% now according to Comreg see page 8 if this.

The marked decline in landline penetration shown in that document started when eircom put the line rental up 3 times in about 6 months c. early 2003.

When the rental shortly goes up from what is ALREADY the highest level on the planet to a NEW high of about €28.20 a month from January that decline will accelerate markedly , a diminishing marginal return .

Services that depend on landlines such as phonewatch will also start to show precipitous drops in subscribers despite phonewatch trying to frighten old people early this week by saying there was a lot more burglary about and that their stats were better than the guards stats .

Phonewatch only knows that an alarm went off and the crap quality of eircoms network probably causes stacks of false alarms all the time and its getting worse. Neverthless it seems phonewatch are getting sweaty at the drop in connections or they would not try to frighten people , especially elderly people , like that.

eircom have already had to launch bundles in september to protect their market share but if you can get Digiweb metro (BB and Line Rental) for a lot less than a line alone from eircom will cost then lots of people will be off to greener pastures.

In rural areas vodafone 3g is having a marked effect as well. As eircom have no dialup bundles (noted down the dialup zones in the country) the vodafone system presents a cheaper dialup substitute as GPRS in most areas.

Like I said, its a diminishing marginal return and eircom are making a very big mistake increasing line rental, they should drop it from the current €24.20 to €23.99 instead.

ongarite

The fact that Eircom are relying on a price increase their future investment is scandalous IMO. Don't know of many companies that rely on that. By investing more money without raising prices they may get more land line and broadband customers and re-coup their costs.
This press release reads like a first shot at Comreg to get their price increase.

Sponge Bob

Give them no line rental increase , they will not invest as has been the norm since about 1999 and then they will eventually go bankrupt and the state can buy the network back for feck all

Eircom are saying that in order to fend off imminently serious competition in the 5 main cities they must invest . Let them pay for it themselves, they have plenty of money . Let the australian vulture capitalists and the communications workers union wait longer for their money.

The 2/3 of the Irish people who do not live in the 5 main cities will end up paying extra line rental and get nothing at all for it so **** them anyway .

dahamsta

Sponge Bob wrote:

Give them no line rental increase , they will not invest as has been the norm since about 1999 and then they will eventually go bankrupt and the state can buy the network back for feck all

Eircom are saying that in order to fend off imminently serious competition in the 5 main cities they must invest . Let them pay for it themselves, they have plenty of money . Let the australian vulture capitalists and the communications workers union wait longer for their money.

The 2/3 of the Irish people who do not live in the 5 main cities will end up paying extra line rental and get nothing at all for it so **** them anyway .

Amen.

maireadmarie

I have had wonderful service from BT for Broadband, which I got from them here when Eircom were saying it wasn't available in my village. I would really like to change and get my telephone from them too, but think it's better for the moment not to 'keep all my eggs in one basket". My sister changed because she said Eircom are just too grasping and is very happy with BT for her Broadband and telephone. Just to let you know, there are other options now!

Slice

The Regulator's approach has been to reduce call charges at the expense of line rental - effectively we have one of the lowest landline call charges in Europe but one of the highest line rental charges. To be perfectly honest I would prefer to pay more for calls and less for line rental if it meant I wasn't committed a high minimum spend each month.

Of course if line rental was lower and call charges higher call charges would still gradually come down because of competition in cost of calls from other operators in a liberalised market. Because the network is owned by Eircom it makes it impossible to compete in cost of line rental unless telephone exchanges are unbundled which is not happening easily.

No doubt ComReg would be seeking submissions from the public and concerned parties regarding this matter before making a decision. I would say to get writing to both ComReg, the Minister for Communications, your local TD - anyone and everyone you can think of regarding this.

Eircom was forced by ComReg to introduce the Vulnerable User Scheme for people with low usage the last time they increased line rental, it's tucked away somewhere discreet on their website http://www.eircom.ie/cgi-bin/bvsm/bveircom/bladerunner/showContent.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@1288752574.1163754977@@@@&BV_EngineID=cccgaddjggdeeeecefeceiedffndffj.0&cid=LowUserSchemeRes. I'm surprised the Competition Authority hasn't copped onto this since it's anti-competitive for low usage customers. Effectively it limits their choice to Eircom in what’s supposed to be a liberalised market - no other operator offers anything similar.

What's more Eircom also said they intend to increase capital investment in both the landline network and Meteor. Since Meteor posted a loss on it's most recent financial results who is to say that the increased cost of line rental won't be used to cross subsidise its mobile arm and to finance this capital investment??

MOH

How about saying to Eircon you can increase the retail line rental to customers but not the wholesale amount other operators have to pay Eircon?
Other operators can charge the higher retail rental if they want.

Let Eircom decide whether they want to increase the rental and risk losing customers if other operators don't pass on the increase.

That would make things interesting.

Sponge Bob

That would only happen if we had a telecoms regulator with vision determination and respect for the consumers interests. We have in Comreg an incontinent poodle with mange instead of a serious regulatory rottweiler with teeth.

Comreg will do whatever eircom tells them bar 2c or 3c here and there and will increase the wholesale prices and unbundled loop prices by the same amount to margin squeeze the rest of the industry. As for the minister Noel Dempsey he is simply hoping that this €4 (in VAT) increase is delayed until after the election in case he is blamed for it .

Mind you I make it that if Comreg allows any increase in line rental they are in breach of a directive from Minister Ahern , Dempseys predecessor.

Introduction
1. Section 13 of the Communications (Regulation) Act, 2002 empowers the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources to issue policy directions to the Commission for Communications Regulation (Comreg) to be followed by Comreg in the exercise of its functions. In February 2003 the Minister issued a series of policy directions to Comreg. In November 2003 Comreg reported to the Minister on its progress in implementing these policy directions. This document primarily focuses on suggesting new policy directions moving forward.

It is intended that new policy directions will be strategic, aimed at removing key constraints to competition, industry focussed, measurable and will complement the work programmes of the Department, Comreg and the new European regulatory framework.


ii. policy direction on wholesale and retail telephone line rental

a) Reason fordirection: The number of local access lines supplied on a wholesale basis by the incumbent to OAOs is quite low (2). The direction recognises the importance of single billing wholesale telephone line rental to advancing competition.

b) Policy direction:
The Minister directs that ComReg will introduce a wholesale line rental product for voice and data services by 31st March 2004. ComReg will ensure that the product is accessible, affordable and with sufficient margin for telecommunications operators to enable them to stimulate and drive competition in this market. ComReg will work with industry to ensure the smooth introduction of this product and will use whatever regulatory interventions are appropriate to address any delays or difficulties which may arise.

ComReg will from 30th June 2004 report monthly to the Minister on the commercial take-up of the wholesale line rental product and a review will be undertaken by 24th September 2004 on the overall impact of the introduction of the product on competition and line rental. If the progress envisaged is not evident at this time through either delays on its availability, its robustness or the services needed to support the successful introduction of this product, the Minister will direct ComReg to examine, subject to relevant requirements under European and National law, taking line rental out of the present price cap and to examine setting a specific rental cap no greater than CPI, or to take whatever other appropriate steps are necessary to ensure its successful introduction.
[/B]

These directions are in force since March 2004 but the threatened follow up never came and now Dempsey is in charge not Ahern.

Comreg always does what eircom tells them not what the minister tells them . Just you watch.

ongarite

No wonder the percentage of houses with line rental is falling. I would guess that the numbers of new houses built with land lines connected is quite low. Why get a land line and play €30 before any calls when nearly 100% of people have mobile phones. Costs of mobile phone calls are competitive compared to land line to mobile calls and least there is some real competition in this market, Meteor included.
The only reason I have a land line is for broadband and I would only call a few people on the home phone.

Sponge Bob

But if you make feck all calls ( under €10 a month averaged) you are entitled to a free rebate, simply ring 1901 and ask to be transferred to Vulnerable User as slice helpfully told us earlier . Your line rental will include €5 worth of calls free each month but the next €5 costs double .

eircom vulnerable user scheme

If you are currently spending less than €10 (inc VAT) each month on calls you may wish to join the eircom vulnerable user scheme which entitles you to the first €5 (inc VAT) worth of calls free. However, this scheme will not suit you if your (CALLS) bill is over €10 (inc VAT) per month as call rates double after €5 (inc VAT).
Low User Scheme also known as Vulnerable User Scheme
Monthly spend €10 (inc VAT)or less on calls
You get the first €5 (inc VAT) free calls
The following €6.01 (inc VAT) charged at double standard rates. Each call after that standard rates apply. All figures are inclusive of VAT.

To sign up to this scheme please ring 1901 and say "Sales Enquiry" and then say "Other Request"

Hotblack Desiato

Sponge Bob wrote:

But if you make feck all calls ( under €10 a month averaged) you are entitled to a free rebate, simply ring 1901 and ask to be transferred to Vulnerable User as slice helpfully told us earlier.

Can you do this if you have (non-Eircom) DSL?

Like many others, we hardly use the phone but need good BB.

Sponge Bob

if you pay line rental to eircom you may do this.

Hotblack Desiato

Yes, rental is eircom, thanks SB.
Longer term, we'll look into Digiweb Metro (DSL is DW and I'm very happy with them.)

Sponge Bob

its determined by your usage of the phone service. if this is low you are entitled to the VUS rate which is a lower line rental rate and €5 worth of calls thrown in.

eircom make it hard to find on their site for that reason

kleefarr

maireadmarie wrote:

I have had wonderful service from BT for Broadband, which I got from them here when Eircom were saying it wasn't available in my village. I would really like to change and get my telephone from them too, but think it's better for the moment not to 'keep all my eggs in one basket". My sister changed because she said Eircom are just too grasping and is very happy with BT for her Broadband and telephone. Just to let you know, there are other options now!

Very happy BT customer here too.
It will interesting to see what BT do when Eircoms line rental goes up. I wouldn't be too surprised if they do nothing and use it as a more powerful enticing sales opportunity.

gerryo

Sponge Bob wrote:

its determined by your usage of the phone service. if this is low you are entitled to the VUS rate which is a lower line rental rate and €5 worth of calls thrown in.

eircom make it hard to find on their site for that reason

Any idea what the lower line rental rate is?

They should give these discounts to all customers who are on carrier lines, regardless of their call spend, paying full rental on a substandard line* is unfair.

I hope to be leaving Eircom in the near future, if my Voip testing works as planned & it's looking good so far.

* Eircom say it works for voice, it's acceptable, however it can never get broadband & dialup is 31K or lower, that equals a substandard line imho.

Hotblack Desiato

gerryo wrote:

paying full rental on a substandard line* is unfair.

I totally agree, but Eircom will tell you that the line isn't substandard according to the ComWreck standards, i.e. 'usable' for voice and capable of delivering at least ZERO bits per second of data

In other words the beginning and end of the problem isn't Eircom, it's ComReg's failure to define 'functional internet access' in a meaningful way

IF Eircom were forced to upgrade all lines to be capable of delivering a decent dialup performance e.g. 44k then DSL would be available to many more people. But this would cost them money and they've managed to convince ComReg not to be nasty to their poor impoverished venture capitalist owners.

Sponge Bob

Comreg were asked to set a minimum bitrate (by distance) in 2001/2002 like 46k min at 1 mile and 40k min at 2 miles . Something along those lines in the USO

"(it) would not be helpful at this time" was the answer from the guy in charge of the USO and its enforcement , Mike Byrne.

So to thank him for all he did for eircom they made Mike a Comreg commisioner a few years later without even advertising the job.

irishproduce

Sponge Bob wrote:

its determined by your usage of the phone service. if this is low you are entitled to the VUS rate which is a lower line rental rate and €5 worth of calls thrown in.

eircom make it hard to find on their site for that reason

Why isn't this posted in the bargain alerts section. P**s €ircon off.
Lower rental and all, especially for people who only use the line for broadband

fifth

Lower line rental? I can't find any info on this. I don't make any landline calls, I only use the broadband.

Slice

It's not cheaper line rental - the line rental is the same price in terms of what you pay. The only difference is that you get "€5 credit" with the cost of the line rental if you're on the vulnerable user scheme which you can then use on calls. Once you go over the €5 you're charged double-rates for the next five euro worth of calls made to balance out the cost again. So effectively if you make over €5 worth of calls you then in theory end up paying exactly the same any other person not on the VUS.

MOH

Slice wrote:

It's not cheaper line rental - the line rental is the same price in terms of what you pay. The only difference is that you get "€5 credit" with the cost of the line rental if you're on the vulnerable user scheme which you can then use on calls. Once you go over the €5 you're charged double-rates for the next five euro worth of calls made to balance out the cost again. So effectively if you make over €5 worth of calls you then in theory end up paying exactly the same any other person not on the VUS.

in that case wouldn't it make sense for everybody to register for this? You can't lose!

Sponge Bob

The only way to register is by ringing 1901 and asking to be 'transferred ' on to it.

If you have a active bundle like a talktime or a talktime + BB you could be breaching your 12 month contract but as long as you are not in a 12 month bundle its free to transfer and effective immediately from the date you ring 1901

Just make sure you actually use that €5 worth of free calls you get every month

Slice

MOH: in that case wouldn't it make sense for everybody to register for this? You can't lose!

Not necessarily, it would depend on the type of calls you made with your free €5 and the type of calls you make on your €5 where you're charged double. Say if you use spend your second €5 on international calls to Elbonia and your free €5 on locals calls then chances are you're going to end up paying a lot more than someone not on the VUS. Obviously on the law of averages it works out the same but not necessarily for everyone.

Also, contrary to an earlier post I really don't think this tariff is available to non-Eircom customers. So if you're with BT or Imagine and the line rental you pay actually goes towards Eircom you're still technically a BT/Imagine customer and you cannot avail of the VUS (correct me if I'm wrong on this but I don't think I am). That was my point earlier about it ComReg sanctioning anti-competitive behaviour in a liberalised market for the low-usage end of the market.

Sponge Bob

The other bit of good news about being on the VUS is that you get free call blocks . At present you can block 15xx numbers (premium rates) for free.

You have to pay €3 a month or €3 a bill ( can't remember) to block other numbers such as international numbers or mobiles or both.

If you are on the VUS you may then block all outgoing calls except Irish landlines only or even local only and you do not have to pay for this block every month .

This is all very useful in a shared house and ensures that the €5 a month credit for free calls goes a long way .

You are right slice, there is no wholesale version of the VUS for other operators.