Restricted Firearms List Drafted

jaycee

FLAG wrote:

Quite frankly this really requires no response.

Quite frankly ....this does !

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=52535308&postcount=177

FLAG

jaycee wrote:

Quite frankly ....this does !

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=52535308&postcount=177

If you have specifics perhaps I can help, but is is clear that in this game you cannot please all of the people all of the time, in sparks case and clearly yours, you are the minority that will not be pleased at all.

With the allegations and innuendo from sparks, it has just got plain dirty and I am not playing any more!

maglite

lads will ye put you personal problems aside

i couldent care less if the NTSI dont get on with the NSAI or who ever

al i care about, along with all the other reader on this forum, is what are the changes and impacts that will result due to this legislation.....

FLAG

maglite wrote:

lads will ye put you personal problems aside

i couldent care less if the NTSI dont get on with the NSAI or who ever

al i care about, along with all the other reader on this forum, is what are the changes and impacts that will result due to this legislation.....

I would imangine the vast majority of people would agree with you, personally I am sick of it, any time I respond to a question or post information I am subject to a torrent of abuse by Sparks and his cronies.

It is not always possible to go into full detail on the boards as things can be taken out of context, it is not really good practice in my mind to make our business too public, one does not know who is viewing the dialogue and with that mind one needs to be cautious, I keep referring to people seeking the approprite information through their respective shooting associations and clubs, this isby far the best mechansm to get full detail.

Clare gunner

Trouble is some of them seem to be none the wiser,than we are.

civdef

any time I respond to a question or post information I am subject to a torrent of abuse by Sparks and his cronies.

You really seem to be seeing conspiracies where there are none.

FLAG

Clare gunner wrote:

Trouble is some of them seem to be none the wiser,than we are.

look for your information through your shooting association or clubs and you will not suffer the defiiency of information, if you depend on the boards for information then you will be disappointed!

FLAG

civdef wrote:

You really seem to be seeing conspiracies where there are none.

No worries about conspiracies, how can you fail to appreciate the difficulty that I have posting when sparks and co kick in, as a mod on the boards you must also appreciate that sparks makes allegations that he cannot uphold and depends on the hypothetical answer to justify the question.

It does not take a large number of individuals to undo the good work that has been done to date.

jaycee

I have said it before , but I'll repeat it.

I'm not looking to score any points nor am I anyone's crony, I'm just looking for specific answers to simple questions. I have no idea why that should make me appear to be either unhelpful or disruptive.

You asked me for specifics .. I thought thats what I had given !
I'll try again.

1. How go's your inquiries into the M3 import ban , you responded earlier that you intended to check out my allegations to that effect.

2. What criteria will the commissioner use in deciding if a restricted item can be licensed to a person , retained by a person or imported.

3. Can we expect to see a set of those guidelines.... ?

Surely theres no need for any imposed secrecy on this one...?
If we don't know , or won't be told ...isn't that a little suspect ... ?

I don't see any hidden booby traps in these questions and I suspect they are
of interest to most people ..not just me.

FLAG

jaycee wrote:

I have said it before , but I'll repeat it.

I'm not looking to score any points nor am I anyone's crony, I'm just looking for specific answers to simple questions. I have no idea why that should make me appear to be either unhelpful or disruptive.

You asked me for specifics .. I thought thats what I had given !
I'll try again.

1. How go's your inquiries into the M3 import ban , you responded earlier that you intended to check out my allegations to that effect.

2. What criteria will the commissioner use in deciding if a restricted item can be licensed to a person , retained by a person or imported.

3. Can we expect to see a set of those guidelines.... ?

Surely theres no need for any imposed secrecy on this one...?
If we don't know , or won't be told ...isn't that a little suspect ... ?

I don't see any hidden booby traps in these questions and I suspect they are
of interest to most people ..not just me.

1) As of today the importer/distributor of benelli informs me that they are still importing M3's
2) Reference the amended firearms legislation contained in the CJA 2006, the commissioner can only use the legislation in his determination, the criteria is written in the legislation.
3) Guidelines as defined in the new legislation will be used to Guide individuals wishing to license firearms as well as those tasked with implementing the legislation, they are presently being drafted by DOJ and the Gardai, at some point we will be consulted and asked to make our input. The guidelines will be published for all to see.

When can we expect to see the guidelines? As soon as they are shown to us, I would expect Q1 2007 but no later than Q2 2007.

Nothing hidden in the answers, they are as they are. No doubt Sparks will be pulling the answers apart but they are as I see it and I have answered as honestly as I can.

I can only make a determination on you being a crony of Sparks by the content of your posts, I have no doubt that you know him well and are of the same mind as he is, I do not know who you are, it is very difficult to be rational in response when one hides behind the veil of the asumed name, certainly thanks to sparks my name is bandied around the boards with no problem to him, pity he does not consider the safety implications of making ones identity know to those out there who may not be in shooting for the sport.

By clearly identifying me time and time again he not only puts me in danger but also my family and I take a poor view of that!

jaycee

FLAG wrote:

1) As of today the importer/distributor of benelli informs me that they are still importing M3's

Well thats a recent change , 3 different firearms dealers on the same day 2 weeks ago told me that they had been blocked. One rang his distributer and rang me back in no time with that story. I shall have to check after Christmas. Interesting times we live in.

Nothing hidden in the answers, they are as they are.

Fair enough..

I can only make a determination on you being a crony of Sparks by the content of your posts, I have no doubt that you know him well and are of the same mind as he is, I do not know who you are, it is very difficult to be rational in response when one hides behind the veil of the assumed name.

Yes I have met Sparks in person , it wasn't an arranged meeting , just in the course of shooting . I know and have met with a lot of people but it doesn't mean I automatically agree with everything they say. and if you contend that personal contact makes one a Crony , I can eliminate that theory immediately for I have met you twice as many times as Sparks. So we can drop that one.
I have never hidden behind an assumed name as many regulars here can verify. If you wish to know my Identity you may PM me (for the stated security reasons)

I have an interest in the shooting sports and extracting the maximum value and minimum harm from the current CJB and Draft ..hence the questions.
If one sets one's stall out as a representative who deals with and claims input into those pieces of legislation it is only natural that the reasoning behind them and their likely effects will raise several questions.

The Irish state deprived Irish sportsmen and women of the means to carry out a lawful and respected pastime for many years. Now new legislation has been written which has the potential to ruin our fledgling sport again . Much of it is written and presented with an unbending attitude , ambiguous terminology , questionable logic and a strong tendency towards secrecy.

We as shooters may appear suspicious of their motives , but their track record in dealing with us hardly inspires confidence.
If their motive are pure , why the secrecy. ?
Why issue a discussion document (Which the Draft is supposed to be ) and ask people not to discuss it...?

As I understand it, a copy of the guidelines will be available for discussion by Q1 or Q2 2007. Surely the items and descriptions on the restricted list need to be trashed out and agreed or amended first .

Reference the amended firearms legislation contained in the CJA 2006, the commissioner can only use the legislation in his determination, the criteria is written in the legislation.

I have already read in depth the new firearms section of the CJB 2006.
Thats why I asked , because under that he can make it up as he go's along and we're all at the mercy of his /her whims and dislikes.
It's hardly an inspiring thought or one we can draw much comfort from if one is contemplating spending around €6000 on a long range target rifle when the powers that be might decide when it's finished that they either don't like the look of it , or the calibre.

It's not just idle speculation , people are investing huge amounts of their own money into equipment and facility's that may be rendered useless at the wrong stroke of a pen. So if people seem a tad anxious ..theres a reason.

FLAG

jaycee wrote:

Well thats a recent change , 3 different firearms dealers on the same day 2 weeks ago told me that they had been blocked. One rang his distributer and rang me back in no time with that story. I shall have to check after Christmas. Interesting times we live in.



Fair enough..



Yes I have met Sparks in person , it wasn't an arranged meeting , just in the course of shooting . I know and have met with a lot of people but it doesn't mean I automatically agree with everything they say. and if you contend that personal contact makes one a Crony , I can eliminate that theory immediately for I have met you twice as many times as Sparks. So we can drop that one.
I have never hidden behind an assumed name as many regulars here can verify. If you wish to know my Identity you may PM me (for the stated security reasons)

I have an interest in the shooting sports and extracting the maximum value and minimum harm from the current CJB and Draft ..hence the questions.
If one sets one's stall out as a representative who deals with and claims input into those pieces of legislation it is only natural that the reasoning behind them and their likely effects will raise several questions.

The Irish state deprived Irish sportsmen and women of the means to carry out a lawful and respected pastime for many years. Now new legislation has been written which has the potential to ruin our fledgling sport again . Much of it is written and presented with an unbending attitude , ambiguous terminology , questionable logic and a strong tendency towards secrecy.

We as shooters may appear suspicious of their motives , but their track record in dealing with us hardly inspires confidence.
If their motive are pure , why the secrecy. ?
Why issue a discussion document (Which the Draft is supposed to be ) and ask people not to discuss it...?

As I understand it, a copy of the guidelines will be available for discussion by Q1 or Q2 2007. Surely the items and descriptions on the restricted list need to be trashed out and agreed or amended first .



I have already read in depth the new firearms section of the CJB 2006.
Thats why I asked , because under that he can make it up as he go's along and we're all at the mercy of his /her whims and dislikes.
It's hardly an inspiring thought or one we can draw much comfort from if one is contemplating spending around €6000 on a long range target rifle when the powers that be might decide when it's finished that they either don't like the look of it , or the calibre.

It's not just idle speculation , people are investing huge amounts of their own money into equipment and facility's that may be rendered useless at the wrong stroke of a pen. So if people seem a tad anxious ..theres a reason.

I take all your points on board, but I still think the forum is not the area for publishing detailled information for many reasons, why not contact me in person and I will discuss any aspect of the discussions with DOJ/Gardai that you wish, I have also offered the flagireland@eircom.net e-mail as a mechanism to get specific questions answered.

Clare gunner

FLAG wrote:

look for your information through your shooting association or clubs and you will not suffer the defiiency of information, if you depend on the boards for information then you will be disappointed!

See my answer above.It ranges from,heard nothing,it's all going to be gone,we will ose everything,it will be all right,to... is there new laws???
With that level of information,I and many others here no doubt feel left out inthe cold,confused,and wondering what is fact and rumour.
Then having the ,dare I say night &fog manouverings going on about this policy document,it doesnt make for trust of the shooting organisations ,local or national level,or the DOJ.[Nor does the personality clashes and bitch fests,do much to inspire confidence as displayed here.]
If I may point this out from a military perspective;the worst thing to demoralise your troops or company is to allow unbridled rumours run rife or not handle openly and truthfully so all can see what is going on,and to quell the rumours with facts. It would be in the intrests of Irish shooting organisations to get a statement into the Shooters digest next month,or in house publications as well as to what is going on and where the state of play is at that phase in time.

Sparks

FLAG wrote:

In your responses you make further unfounded and damaging accusations: You are making an accusation that I am responsiblw for some form of tension between SSAI and NARGC.

No, I'm reporting a fact. As evidenced by the written statements by both Frank Brophy and Des Crofton in the Digest in recent months.

I am potentially an incompetent representative

I believe you are not well suited to the job of representation of our interests at any level Declan, and I enter for supporting evidence two things; firstly the significant restrictions and losses to our sport that the CJA2006 represents, a piece of legislation brought in during your tenure and which you are now defending; and secondly the unbelievably uncivil manner in which you have behaved in this forum. Here, you are given a free voice (even to the point of being granted special privileges in terms of not being punished for violation of the forum charter time and again), time to research and compose your answers (you even get to spellcheck them) and still you respond in a belligirent and unhelpful manner, squandering an opportunity to give information to shooters in a widespread manner and taking every opportunity to abuse the forum to make unwarranted personal attacks while claiming to represent a national body.

If you do this in such unpressured circumstances, what are you like on the fly in a room with the Minister or his representatives, people who truly have no interest in the sport as opposed to in here, with people who have a vested interest in the furtherance of it?

FLAG wrote:

I respond to a question or post information I am subject to a torrent of abuse by Sparks and his cronies.

Thank you for that, but I don't have cronies, and valid - if awkward - questions are not torrents of abuse.

It is not always possible to go into full detail on the boards as things can be taken out of context

That's a logical absurdity - you can only avoid being taken out of context by giving all the information. Something difficult to do in a face-to-face meeting, but easy to do here as you have time to consider and compose your answers.

it is not really good practice in my mind to make our business too public

And with that one sentence, you justify immediately and permanently striking from your future comments any reference or implication to representing me or those in my sport. My sport is above board. I have nothing to hide by partaking in it. I have no problem whatsoever with public coverage - in fact, I welcome and seek it for my sport. I think what we do is laudable and honorable, not something to be kept secret and hidden away like some sort of minor crime that might disadvantage us in other parts of life. I represent my country in an olympic sport Declan. I do not appreciate, nor do I condone or welcome any attempt by any person, especially one who claims to represent me, to even hint at the notion that this might be in some way unseemly or dodgy. So take your "keep it hidden" ideas and keep them to yourself!

FLAG wrote:

if you depend on the boards for information then you will be disappointed!

Bullcrap. Boards has done more for shooting in two years than you have in ten by virtue of the sheer numbers involved. You've answered how many phone calls in ten years? Boards has been read just shy of 20,000 times in two years. Can you best that? Of course not, you can only talk to one person at a time - boards can reach thousands at once. But you never did see or embrace that...

FLAG wrote:

2) Reference the amended firearms legislation contained in the CJA 2006, the commissioner can only use the legislation in his determination, the criteria is written in the legislation.

Perhaps you need to read the CJA. The criteria in the legislation is for unrestricted firearms. There are no criteria that ensure a licence will be granted according to the legislation. There are minimum criteria that must be met if one is to be granted; these are in section four. For restricted firearms, there are more criteria, as determined by the Commissioner, but no list of these has been provided, and not only that, the Minister in the Dail during the debates argued strongly against public disclosure of those criteria, which is sufficient for us to assume that that will be the situation. But even if all those criteria are met, it is still not illegal for a licence to be refused.

You see what I mean about your not being suited to this job?

3) Guidelines as defined in the new legislation will be used to Guide individuals wishing to license firearms as well as those tasked with implementing the legislation, they are presently being drafted by DOJ and the Gardai, at some point we will be consulted and asked to make our input. The guidelines will be published for all to see.

First off, why are you waiting to be asked? Your job is to be active, not reactive.
Secondly, the Minister was quite clear that there was no onus on him to publish all the guidelines, and the leglislation is very clear that there is no requirement for them to be published. Read the CJA Declan, then read the debates on it in the Dail records. You can find them on the oireachtas.ie website or on the CJB2004 thread in this forum, along with commentary.

they are as I see it and I have answered as honestly as I can.

That's the problem. If that's the best analysis you have, we need someone better.

pity he does not consider the safety implications of making ones identity know to those out there who may not be in shooting for the sport.

Perhaps you should have thought of that before volunteering to a public office and seeking publicity in the Digest and other publications, including the national media?

By clearly identifying me time and time again he not only puts me in danger but also my family and I take a poor view of that!

And for that daft allegation (you were in the media before I ever even knew you, let alone the founding of the forum here on boards), you can take a week to cool off Declan. Check your PMs for details.

civdef

I think this thread has about run its course.

Kramer

civdef wrote:

I think this thread has about run its course.

Na, I reckon there's loads left in it yet .

Thread locked.

Vegeta

why does it always get personal lads

it just ruins the debate

Clare gunner

Solution on the boards here;Thunderdome!!!Two go in ,the posts and insults go round and round,one leaves.:D

johngalway

Deleted out by poster.

Riggser

If I can, I would like to introduce a marvelous option that every boards.ie member has pleasure of using, it's called the private message.

I don't want to fan the flames here but public tit for tat tiffs aren't doing you or the sport any favours. Once you get personal you lose the debate in my view. If the shooting sports in this country ever needed a boost it's now.

I don't want to get into the politics of shooting in Ireland. I want to go out to a range or a field, shoot at a target, clay or game, lock up the firearms, head to the pub, few brews and talk sh1te to who ever wants to listen to me. Simple, yes? Wrong. There's an awful lot of alpha male chest beating going on and for what? Here you have two very prominent members of the shooting sport scene in Ireland who are bickering. Agree to disagree lads and be done with it. Everyone should be working together on this, even if you depise each other.

You go to one superintendent and he's says yes to a .308 and then the other super over the otherside of the road (literally) wouldn't let you go into Smyths Toy store and buy a spud gun! Is this going to change? If yes when is going to change? Is there going to be any easier process of obtaining a firearms certificate? Are certain firearms completely banned?

What I'm saying to anyone out there who has the power to make things happen (and I'm doing my bit by the way,believe me), try and make the whole shooting sport scene as clear, simple and of course safe as possible for all.

Sparks

Vegeta wrote:

why does it always get personal lads
it just ruins the debate

Agreed. My problem is that I have valid questions that need answers and after several years, there's been none, but there's outright hostility to having them asked. That's unacceptable from anywhere, but especially so from a national body.

Sparks

Riggser wrote:

You go to one superintendent and he's says yes to a .308 and then the other super over the otherside of the road (literally) wouldn't let you go into Smyths Toy store and buy a spud gun! Is this going to change?

Yes. Now you'll have to go to the Commissioner to get the .308 licence and he may not let you go into Smyths.

If yes when is going to change?

The beginning of the new year is the best guesstimate I've heard so far.

Is there going to be any easier process of obtaining a firearms certificate?

No. There will be some more people able to get a licence now (namely those between 14 and 16 who can get a training licence if their superintendent agrees).

Are certain firearms completely banned?

Always have been, but noone really wants a flamethrower, do they?
As to the rest, things like 40mm grenade launchers, fully automatic assault rifles and the like, they're not technically illegal, but the odds of you getting a licence are sortof up there with being killed by a meteorite that just shot down two passanger airliners, while you're winning the lotto and the euromillions lottery at the same time with the same numbers.

What I'm saying to anyone out there who has the power to make things happen (and I'm doing my bit by the way,believe me), try and make the whole shooting sport scene as clear, simple and of course safe as possible for all.

As simply put as the situation allows, this list means that anyone who wants anything on it will have to apply to the commissioner, fulfill the criteria in section four, fulfill any other criteria the commissioner specifies, including criteria that you may not be told about before, during or after, and then you may be given a licence for it, provided that it does not contravene the guidelines that the commissioner drafts for the superintendents (again, not all of those need be made public) and that the commissioner wants to grant you the licence.

UFO

What I would like to know is how we got into this mess. Why do we have a list.I have a number of firearms that will be affected. I want to get more not have less.

Keelan

So folks, its the new year and hope you all have a happy and prosperouse one.;)

Now, my quetion, when is this new law coming into effect and when will we be effected by it?

I have a .223, .22lr and a semi-auto 3 shot 12g shotgun.

I have a secure gun safe for above, attached to wall.

Will i get a visit for inspection? Will i also have to have an expensive alarm?

Any sensible, truthfull answers, would come in handy.

Thanks,

Keelan.

Sparks

Now, my quetion, when is this new law coming into effect and when will we be effected by it?

No word as yet.

I have a .223, .22lr and a semi-auto 3 shot 12g shotgun.
I have a secure gun safe for above, attached to wall.
Will i get a visit for inspection? Will i also have to have an expensive alarm?

Going by what we know now, the most likely answer is that yes, your safe will be inspected; the .22lr and 12g should be fine; but the .223 may cause you a problem or two and you'll have to apply to the Commissioner to renew the licence, at which point you'll probably get a list of additional things you have to do to have it renewed. The alarm may well be one of them, but noone knows for sure and the Commissioner does not have to tell us ahead of time, nor during the application process.

johngalway

.223 land here too. How about a 5 shot semi shotugn? Problems I'm guessing...

johngalway

?

Any news?

Clare gunner

johngalway wrote:

.223 land here too. How about a 5 shot semi shotugn? Problems I'm guessing...

Dunno about the 223 ,but if you are a vermin shooter[crows,piegons,etc] and were to take up practical shotgunning,where the min mag cap is 5 rounds,by the intl stds.That would be two pretty good reasons to have a restricted[if ever] shotgun.

ginoguns39

Lads Lads Lads Relax,its All Still In The Air As We Speak,worst Case Scenario Is That No Further Pistol Certs Will Be Issued.but The Ones That Are Out There Will Be Allowed.the N.a.r.g.c. Has Put Forward Proposals And Guidlines For The Minister To Browse Through,little Bird Told Me That The Minister Is In Favour Of The Proposals Put Forward.:d

sidneyreilly

ginoguns39 wrote:

worst Case Scenario Is That No Further Pistol Certs Will Be Issued.but The Ones That Are Out There Will Be Allowed..:d

No offense Gino but thats a bit of the "I'm alright Jack". It dosnt encourage me that whilst I can keep my pistols the sport will die with me:(

A little point to all. Whilst you will keep your "restricted" items when then they become so, I would expect that you will be well queried come the next renewal as to their use. So everyone who suspects they may be affected when the list is finalized I urge you to keep detailed records of range attendence, competitions attended, number of rounds fired in each occaision. If you are not currently attending or engaging in competitions START. Hunters: should keep a pocket diary of dates'times and locations, particularly those using hi-cap shotguns for vermin control.