Bad Translation that Really Bugs Me - Clann

Gael

Alright first of all I'd like to make it clear that I'm generally against people being excessively pedantic about the correctness of Irish, and I'm a big believer of Is fearr Gaeilge bhriste ná Béarla cliste. But this one has become so common that it's even used by fluent speakers and teachers in schools(though not native speakers) It's being taught all over the country to kids as being correct and it's just plain wrong! :mad: Béarlachas of the worst kind.

The word I refer to is 'Clann' which is frequently given as the direct English translation of the word 'Family'(originally a Latin word - familia - and not originally English at all). Is this not correct? Well yes and no.

'Clann' means 'family' in the sense of your own offspring and that alone. It should not be used to refer to anyone else that you are even vaguely related to, that is not the fruit of your loins. So nine year old kids should not be talking about their 'clann'!!

The words to use to refer to your broader family is 'muintir'(which can mean anyone from you brother or sister or parents to your sixth cousin once-removed, though the context often displays a more limited meaning). For examples 'Muintir Uí Néill' means 'The O'Neills' in the broad sense. 'Mo mhuintir' is sometimes used to refer to just 'my parents', though again context will dictate the exactness of these things. But muintir is often a good word to use for 'family'.

Then there is the word 'Teaghlach'(from the word 'teach') which is commonly used to refer to 'family' in a more nuclear sense. Strictly it means 'household' but is the most common one used to describe family that live with you in the same house(basically parents and the kids). Pick up a copy of the Irish Constitution(which is always printed bilingually) and you will see that 'The Family' is referred to as 'An Teaghlach' in Irish, and not 'An Chlann'.

Finally I realise that some people will say "But that's what I was taught in school", but then again, how good at Irish was your teacher actually. Were they a native speaker? Did they really use Irish with any regularity outside of having to teach it in school?
You'll also find that all the Irish dictionaries agree with what I'm saying. See below for example:


http://www.focal.ie/Search.aspx?term=clann
http://www.csis.ul.ie/focloir/
http://xreferplus.unext.com/results.jsp?new_meta=1&term=clann&default=&type=volume&volume=365

So to recap:

Mo chlann = my children/offspring only
Mo theaghlach = My family living with me(household)
Mo mhuintir = my family, from your immediate family to your distant blood-relatives(depending on context)

I feel better now!:)

GaryOR

Aontaím
Is fuath liom nuair a bhreathnaím é ar shuíomh idirlíon i leith sloinne éicint agus a leithéid. Agus bíonn Clann Uí Chléirigh agus a leithéid ann
Féach anseo thíos:
http://www.clancleary.com/

Fáilte go Clann Uí Chléirigh:mad:

Suaimhneach

Very informative Gael... I'm glad I know the difference now!!
There are a lot of words taht are being misused unfortunately!

Gael

GaryOR wrote:

Aontaím
Is fuath liom nuair a bhreathnaím é ar shuíomh idirlíon i leith sloinne éicint agus a leithéid. Agus bíonn Clann Uí Chléirigh agus a leithéid ann
Féach anseo thíos:
http://www.clancleary.com/

Fáilte go Clann Uí Chléirigh:mad:

Níl sé sin mícheart Gary, caithfear a rá. Mar sa chás sin déanann an focal 'clann' tagairt don duine stairiúil sin 'Cléireach' a bhí mar shinsear ag an dream sin (Clann Uí Chléirigh - the offspring/descendents of Cléireach) Tá an-chuid samplaí den úsáid sin sa litríocht leis na céadta bliain. Níl aon locht agam air sin.

An nós atá á lochtú agamsa ná daoine óga(don chuid is mó) nach bhfuil aon pháistí acu, agus iad ag caint faoin 'gclann' atá acu.

GaryOR

Gael wrote:

Níl sé sin mícheart Gary, caithfear a rá. Mar sa chás sin déanann an focal 'clann' tagairt don duine stairiúil sin 'Cléireach' a bhí mar shinsear ag an dream sin (Clann Uí Chléirigh - the offspring/descendents of Cléireach) Tá an-chuid samplaí den úsáid sin sa litríocht leis na céadta bliain. Níl aon locht agam air sin.

An nós atá á lochtú agamsa ná daoine óga(don chuid is mó) nach bhfuil aon pháistí acu, agus iad ag caint faoin 'gclann' atá acu.

Foc é ar aon chuma. Fearg amú a bhí ann

Gael

GaryOR wrote:

Foc é ar aon chuma. Fearg amú a bhí ann

Ná bí buartha faoi, níl saoi gan locht. Ach is féidir go mbeadh fearg ort faoi seo go fóill!

Gael wrote:

An nós atá á lochtú agamsa ná daoine óga(don chuid is mó) nach bhfuil aon pháistí acu, agus iad ag caint faoin 'gclann' atá acu.

FlutterinBantam

So "Clann na Talúin" a political party yonks ago was incorrectly named?? an ea?

Gael

FlutterinBantam wrote:

So "Clann na Talúin" a political party yonks ago was incorrectly named?? an ea?

No, nothing wrong with that at all. Why would there be? What could be wrong though is how 'Clann na Talmhan'(Talún, in modern spelling) is translated into English by a person. Like the way 'Fianna Fáil' is wrongly translated into English as 'The Soldiers of Destiny'. There's nothing wrong with using the word 'clann', as long as it's used for the right reason and meaning.

FlutterinBantam

I thought you said earlier that "Clann " should be only used to describe blood related family... now that I think of it there was also "Clann na Pobhlachta"

That was my point.

Gael

FlutterinBantam wrote:

I thought you said earlier that "Clann " should be only used to describe blood related family... now that I think of it there was also "Clann na Pobhlachta"

That was my point.

Yes and so both parties' names would mean "children/offspring of the land/republic". What's wrong with that?

Just My View

Interesting thread. What does Fianna Fáil correctly translate to? Thanks.

Gael

Just My View wrote:

Interesting thread. What does Fianna Fáil correctly translate to? Thanks.

Fál(genetive case - Fáil) is a poetic name for Ireland, frequently found in Irish language poetry and literature. See here a previous post of mine on the subject

r3nu4l

*Gael, tá Geailge an-simplí agam, ach go raibh maith agat chun é (?). Tá tu cheart, nuair a bhí mé ar scoil, dúirt mo mhúinteoirí go raibh sé 'Clann' chun mo dhreathair, m'athair agus mo mháithair.

Gael, my Irish is poor but thank you for that. You're right, when I was in school, my teachers said that 'Clann' referred to my brother, father and mother.





*Any corrections to my Irish are most welcome!

Twinkle-star15

r3nu4l wrote:

*Gael, tá Geailge an-simplí agam, ach go raibh maith agat chun é (?). Tá tu cheart, nuair a bhí mé ar scoil, dúirt mo mhúinteoirí go raibh sé 'Clann' chun mo dhreathair, m'athair agus mo mháithair.

Gael, my Irish is poor but thank you for that. You're right, when I was in school, my teachers said that 'Clann' referred to my brother, father and mother.

Same here. I think the standard of Irish being taught is seriously dropping- especially when last year's Junior Cert had the word "balaclava" written like that in one of the texts- honestly!

Gael

Twinkle-star15 wrote:

Same here. I think the standard of Irish being taught is seriously dropping- especially when last year's Junior Cert had the word "balaclava" written like that in one of the texts- honestly!

Well that's understandable enough since a balaclava is a garment named after a place (in the Crimea, I think) and there was no precedent for it in Irish previous to that. A word like hata or clúdach cinn wouldn't suffice to describe it accurately.

Personally I've no problem with new loan words entering Irish when there is no preceding term already. It's been going on since Irish first became a written language under the influence of Latin.

But this is a case of English speakers misinterpreting the meaning of a long extablished Irish word. I've seen them use it in the wrong context on TG4 more than once. There was one episode of Ros na Rún where a yound woman who was about twenty with no children, was talking about how she wasn't getting on with her 'clann'. We then found out that it was her sister and father she was talking about.

Twinkle-star15

Ah right- we were under the impression that someone thought no-one would understand if they translated it (which is quite true) so they left it at balaclava for us.

Gael

What some people don't realise is that there are a few very common words in Irish that were borrowed from English many hundreds of years ago. Staighre and Maighdean being two for example. It's not that new a thing.

Rosita

I always heard the word 'clann' used for family of all sorts when I was in school. It was only when I studied Irish at university that this incorrectness was brought to my attention so it seems that not one teacher I had was aware of this.

Listening to George Hook and others in the media 'smartly' (and incorrectly of course) referring to Fianna Fáil as the 'soldiers of destiny' gets on my wick in a big way, especially in the arrogant condescending way it is said. Presumably like most non-Irish speakers people like him would blow a gasket at the pedantry of it, if it was pointed out.