UCLA student gets tasered for not having student ID card in the library!

Flex

I agree with Sand on this. The guy was being a little attention whore, acted like a spoiled little wanker and had a bitch-fit because he had to do something he didnt want to. From what I read on Wiki (didnt have much time to read it, could be wrong), it sounded like he refused to show his ID, rather than not having it because he thought he was being the victim of racial profiling.

wikipedia wrote:

According to Yagman (his lawyer), Tabatabainejad was asked to show his university identification card and did not do so because he believed he was being singled out for racial profiling.

It also says that taser like the one used would cause localized pain but not affect the CNS. And after the first taser use hes perfectly able to coherently rant on about the patriot act and how hes being the victim of police brutality (attention-whore victim again) and to tell the police to '**** off' when they ask him to stand. And the only reason he stopped ranting and shouting is because they move into the hall where theres MORE students who havnt seen what a bollix he was, so he acts differently to play to the crowd.

And people keep trying to make it seem as though hes a 17/18 year old student as an excuse. Hes 23 and in final year. Hes not a rowdy teenager or poor little 'silly billy', hes a spoiled little attention whore who had to leave the library so had a fit.

Manic Moran wrote:

Worth what you pay for it, but this cropped up on the UCLA message board a few days ago:

"Yes, I was indeed at Powell Library at approximately 11:30 on Tuesday night, and yes I did see the entire event as it went down.

Let me start off by saying that the guy DEFINITELY was asking to get his ass kicked. He was being extremely rude with the campus patrol guys (who are college students...this was before the real UCPD got called in). He was not complying with their requests to leave the premises, and he was definitely itching for a fight. I actually know the guy and a few of his friends, and I can tell you that he's the kind of guy that loves to make trouble.

Just as a little backstory, one of the quotes the guy has on his facebook (which he now has taken down) was "I like to find the most difficult solutions to the simplest of problems".

He definitely taunted the UCPD into behaving the way they did with him."

NYM

Not surprising

aidan24326

civdef wrote:

How does one get from the street being abusive to the courtroom? I'm guessing that you've never arrested someone or been arrested, so here's how - in England at least, and the process doesn't vary much here.

For an offence like described above you probably won't get warned to desist, you'll get arrested. This will consist of the police officer physically grabbing hold of you, most likely handcuffing you, placing you into a patrol car or van and taking you to the cells to be booked in, sober up if necessary, possibly interviewed, charged (the verbal abuse will ensure it's probably not just a police caution), then court, probably with bail in the interim. If at any stage in the process you are not compliant, physical force will be used. The level of force will be based on how much is needed to get you to the courtroom.

You should be under no illusions that this wouldn't involve pain to the arrested person, in fact pain compliance techniques are a standard and permitted way to move someone who is passively resisting, usually taking the form of arm locks, wrist holds, handcuff twists, pressure points etc.

The incident being described is a bit different in that it started off as evicting someone from a premises (where reasonable force can also be used - such as holding someones arm on the way out), but turned into abusive behaviour.

civdef you are really going out of to way to defend what was inexcusable behaviour by the cops in question. Yes the guy was being an attention-seeking tosser no doubt, and probably deserves an ass-kicking, but taser use is supposed to be reserved for when there is a physical threat or danger to the police or another civillian, and it seems quite clear that was not the case in this incident. The 'police' reacted in an unprofessional manner from what I can see, and could have saved themselves alot of hassle and unwanted attention if they had handled the situation with a bit more subtlety. They could easily have just dragged him out of there, I can't see how tasering did anything but create more hostility.

Why do you think it's ok for police to use repeated painful physical force on someone who is posing no physical threat, but merely refusing to do as he's told? If every similair situation was handled like this we'd have people getting tasered left right and centre. Are you an aggressive sort yourself? A wannabe cop perhaps? I notice you are mod of the shooting forum, why does that not surprise me.

civdef

Are you an aggressive sort yourself? A wannabe cop perhaps? I notice you are mod of the shooting forum, why does that not surprise me.

There we go getting personal again. Lot of that going round this thread. It's a sign of poor debating skills you know.

To deal with something you raised:

but taser use is supposed to be reserved for when there is a physical threat or danger to the police or another civillian

The police department in question has a different policy (as do many others).

bonkey

civdef wrote:

I'm guessing that you've never arrested someone or been arrested, so here's how - in England at least, and the process doesn't vary much here.

also by civdef wrote:

The police department in question has a different policy (as do many others).

I find it interesting that when it suits you, you'll use generalities about how "the process" works and how in another post you'll correct somenoe for using generalities about how "the process" works.

As a side issue....given that you apparently know the process involved (and apparently policy in the police department in question)...is it within policy for a police officer to threaten a bystander with tasering for requesting his badge number?

If not, would it be permissable for a student to taser the officer for being verbally abusive whilst refusing to produce identification, in the same veing that it is being argued by some that the officer was within his rights to taser a student for being abusive whilst refusing to produce his identification?

civdef

I find it interesting that when it suits you, you'll use generalities about how "the process" works and how in another post you'll correct somenoe for using generalities about how "the process" works.

That quote you use was in direct response to Spark's contention that in the UK or Ireland a person carrying on in a similar manner in public wouldn't be arrested using any force- hence my response deals with England, where I have personal experience. I really don't see how you construe that as generalities - it was quite specific to the matter at hand.

As to specifics on the Taser policies of the dept in question, they have been posted on this thread already and on other fora. If a poster implies that an officer was acting against policy by using Taser against someone using passive resistance, it hardly seems unreasonable to point out (as has been done already on this thread) that policy permits such use in the department in question.

I don't know what the regulations are in LA regarding police officer identification, but if they're anything like England, a member of the public is entitled to ask for an officers collar number (for a uniform officer it will be in plain view). It depends on the context though, and jumping in an officers face as they're trying to arrest someone could constitute obstruction.

would it be permissable for a student to taser the officer for being verbally abusive whilst refusing to produce identification, in the same veing that it is being argued by some that the officer was within his rights to taser a student for being abusive whilst refusing to produce his identification?

The student was not tasered as punishment for being abusive, the Taser was to get him to comply with the police officers lawful instructions as part of being evicted from the building and then being arrested. As I've tried to point out previously, using pain to achieve compliance is a standard police procedure all over the place.

The punishment for the abusive behaviour by the student would be at the hands of the courts - that's not the job of the police and they would be wrong to do so. Equally a student would not be justified using force if they felt the police officer was abusive, making a formal complaint would be the route to go.

BaZmO*

civdef wrote:

I don't know what the regulations are in LA regarding police officer identification, but if they're anything like England, a member of the public is entitled to ask for an officers collar number (for a uniform officer it will be in plain view). It depends on the context though, and jumping in an officers face as they're trying to arrest someone could constitute obstruction.

.....

probe wrote:

What Makes Police Brutality Possible?
by Roderick Long, November 17, 2006

......Being asked for one’s badge number, I need hardly add, is a lawful request and so likewise not an action to which a threat of tasering is a legitimate response..........


http://c4ss.org/content/21

.probe

aidan24326

bonkey wrote:

As a side issue....given that you apparently know the process involved (and apparently policy in the police department in question)...is it within policy for a police officer to threaten a bystander with tasering for requesting his badge number?

This is even more damning. Whatever about tasering a guy for refusing to leave a library, there is absolutely no way a ploiceman is allowed to threaten tasering someone just for asking his id badge number. Requesting a policeman's id or badge number is a perfectly legal and valid thing to do, and there is no way any police dept. would make such a request 'punishable' by tasering. That would be absurd. Which serves to prove further that these cops were either over-aggressive bullies, badly trained/inexperienced, or more likely both.

bonkey

aidan24326 wrote:

make such a request 'punishable' by tasering. That would be absurd. Which serves to prove further that these cops were either over-aggressive bullies, badly trained/inexperienced, or more likely both.

A quick google would appear to suggset that teh tasering was all done by one of the cops, and that said cop has a not-unblemished past when it comes to the question of unacceptable use of force.

Having said that, I'll wait to see what the independant (i.e. external) investigation comes up with.

No doubt, they'll be lambasted one way or another given that this seems to be yet another case where the majority are lining up on sides which only allow that one of the two (police or student) were in the wrong.

That the use of tasering / infliction of pain to gain compliance is being defended is interesting. I wonder how many of the people supporting such moves would support the same actions being carried out by the police force of a non-democratic nation.

aidan24326

bonkey wrote:

That the use of tasering / infliction of pain to gain compliance is being defended is interesting. I wonder how many of the people supporting such moves would support the same actions being carried out by the police force of a non-democratic nation.

Indeed it is interesting. What would be also be interesting to know is how many of those defending the policeman's actions would say the same if it happened to them. i.e tasered for mere non-compliance to a request in a non-violent manner. How about you civdef, champion of the police, what you think?

POLICEMAN: civdef, move along there you're loitering.
civdef: No, I won't, I'm doing nothing wrong.
POLICEMAN: I said move immediately.
civdef: No.
POLICEMAN. Right then. Bzzzzzzzzzzz Bzzzzzzzzzzz
civdef: Arrrrggghhhhhh! Arrrrggggghhhhhh!! screaming in pain
POLICEMAN: There. Serves you right you non-compliant little fecker.
civdef: Thank you officer, I have seen the error of my ways. Thank you for shocking me out of my non-compliant stupor. I will move along now. Bless you sir.

bonkey wrote:

A quick google would appear to suggset that teh tasering was all done by one of the cops, and that said cop has a not-unblemished past when it comes to the question of unacceptable use of force.

Well then hopefully said cop will be dealt with appropriately.

civdef

Bonkey & Aidan24326, it happens here quite legally, just with batons, not Tasers.

There's been a couple of borderline posts here attacking the poster and not their posts.
The next one I see gets a one week ban.

bonkey

civdef wrote:

Bonkey & Aidan24326, it happens here quite legally, just with batons, not Tasers.

Its legal for Irish police to use batons on people who refuse to comply?

Or when you say "it happens", do you mean that it happens and the police aren't censured for it even though its actually illegal for them to act in this manner?

I ask because I'm thinking back to the recent "Shell at Sea" issue, and I genuinely don't remember anyone arguing that the police would have been in their rights to clip the protestors around the head for refusing to get off the ground where they were peacefully protesting.

Indeed, when they pulled that woman out of the van, I would have been of the opinion that beating her with the baton before, during, or afterwards would have been prosecutable as police brutality.

I'm no lawyer, but "minimum force" is always how I understood Irish law to work. If the police use non-necessary force, then they are in breach of the law. The use of a baton on someone to save you the effort of dragging them would not meet the criteria that I knew of.

Again - don't get me wrong. I have no illusion that police in Ireland don't use too much force and get away with it, but I would be genuinely surprised to find that they get away with it because its legal, rather than because our system doesn't police itself sufficiently.

aidan24326

civdef wrote:

Bonkey & Aidan24326, it happens here quite legally, just with batons, not Tasers.

Well personally, I'd take a clout of a baton any day over getting tasered.

And like bonkey says, there's no way the gardai would be allowed to baton someone in a situation similiar to the UCLA library one. I'm sure sometimes they might go overboard, but that's not to say they're allowed to or that they wouldn't get in trouble if found out. Gardai who over-used physical force at the 'reclaim the streets' fiasco were disciplined, and rightly so. (although it must be said I wouldn't have minded batoning a few of those reclaim the streets idiots myself. most pointless 'protest' ever).

civdef

Well personally, I'd take a clout of a baton any day over getting tasered.

In the same position, I'd choose the Taser. They have less potential to harm and the effects aren't persistant.

Bonkey,
I better not speculate on the exact way it's worded in Ireland, because I'm not familiar with Garda training on the subject, but I know use of the baton is allowed to achieve compliance in England, techniques for doing so are part of standard training - they dont involve hitting the person around the head though, rather jabs, pressure and using it as a lever. The PR24 baton (the sidehandled one) is specifically designed for this sort of use and is actually fairly useless for hitting with.

In the Shell to Sea, the batons were drawn to allow immediate response if anyone resisted with anything other than going limp (struggling/kicking out upwards), which given the number of officers present, could be dealt with easily enough by carrying them away mob-handed.

bonkey

civdef wrote:

Bonkey,
I better not speculate on the exact way it's worded in Ireland,

Ah, so the "here" you referred to wasn't Ireland.

Fair enough.

I know use of the baton is allowed to achieve compliance in England, techniques for doing so are part of standard training - they dont involve hitting the person around the head though, rather jabs, pressure and using it as a lever.

When you say "achieve compliance", does this mean that in England, the police can use these batons on peaceful but non-compliant protestors?

In the Shell to Sea, the batons were drawn to allow immediate response

My point exactly. Their use is meant to be reactionary.

I'd have no objection to the police officer in the US having drawn his taser on similar reasoning.

You seem to be suggesting though that the English police could jab & prod said people to make them move simply if they're refusing to?

If its legal, its not a technique I really understand, because it would seem to me that jabbing and prodding only makes someone move to avoid the infliction of further paini. If you can't inflict the further pain and they know you can't, then its ineffective and serves no purpose.

Its like a kid kicking me in the shins. I know they can't actually hurt me, so I can ignore it if I want. If, on the other hand, it was someone hefty and I was of the opinion that this was a precursor to a far bigger kicking, then sure, it might work.

Leveraging...no real issue there. Its no different to physically dragging someone out of the way. I accept it can be abused, but then so can dragging.

The PR24 baton (the sidehandled one) is specifically designed for this sort of use and is actually fairly useless for hitting with.

So then its use to ensure compliance is, presumably, also intended to work on princples other than inflicting pain?

civdef

Ah, so the "here" you referred to wasn't Ireland.

Pretty much, I still get a little bit confused between the two sometimes!

When you say "achieve compliance", does this mean that in England, the police can use these batons on peaceful but non-compliant protestors?

Say you needed to move someone who was in a sit-down-in-the-middle-of-the-road protest and wasn't budging. You could use a baton to assist with this, using approved techniques (after asking them, probably trying to physically lift them etc.) These wouldn't involve whacking, but could involve jabs to pressure points, twists to arms etc, and they hurt like the bejaysus. You ease off when they start to do what they're told. It's very effective but doesn't cause much other than superficial bruising at worst.

So then its use to ensure compliance is, presumably, also intended to work on princples other than inflicting pain?

The traditional baton is a club, using blunt force impact to do its work. The side handled baton isn't ideal as a club, but works well for other techniques (as well as blocking). The other techniques as described above don't rely on brute force so produce no photogenic bleeding protestors, but still hurt and have proven to be effective.

Manic Moran

Why do you think it's ok for police to use repeated painful physical force on someone who is posing no physical threat, but merely refusing to do as he's told?

Mainly because it works, and the level of pain inflicted is pretty much determined by the compliance or non-compliance of the person in question. I've been taught a few 'come-alongs' ("You're coming along with me, mate") for crowd control purposes. A simple one just involves pressure on the thumb when held behind his back. Probably the easiest if you're in a hurry involves grabbing the chap's hand by reaching from behind, between his legs, and pulling back. He can still walk with no pain, but if he struggles, just pull his hand up and he will suddenly find interesting pressure applied to his genitals, and be completely unable to do anything about it. The more he struggles, the more it hurts. Struggling generally ceases shortly thereafter, walking recommences. What Taser-threatening compliance does is it removes the risk of a struggle inherent in getting a suitable hold for the come-along in the first place.

NTM

Sparks

A point to note about the original case in the UCLA library:

Officer in Taser case identified
Terrence Duren, a 2001 UCLA officer of the year, has been the subject of two other use-of-force complaints.
By Charles Proctor and Richard Winton, Times Staff Writers
November 21, 2006

The UCLA police officer videotaped last week using a Taser gun on a student also shot a homeless man at a campus study hall room three years ago and was earlier recommended for dismissal in connection with an alleged assault on fraternity row, authorities said.

Tabatabainejad's attorney, Stephen Yagman, said his client was shocked five times with the Taser after he refused to show his ID because he thought he was being singled out for his Middle Eastern appearance. Tabatabainejad is of Iranian descent but is a U.S. citizen by birth and a resident of Los Angeles.

Duren said Monday that he joined the UCLA police force after being fired from the Long Beach Police Department in the late 1980s. He said he was a probationary officer at the time and was let go because of poor report-writing skills and geographical knowledge.

In May 1990, he was accused of using his nightstick to choke someone who was hanging out on a Saturday in front of a UCLA fraternity. Kente S. Scott alleged that Duren confronted him while he was walking on the street outside the Theta Xi fraternity house.

Scott sued the university, and according to court records, UCLA officials moved to have Duren dismissed from the police force. But after an independent administrative hearing, officials overturned the dismissal, suspending him for 90 days.

Duren on Monday disputed the allegations made by Scott.

In October 2003, Duren shot and wounded a homeless man he encountered in Kerckhoff Hall. Duren chased the man into a bathroom, where they struggled and he fired two shots.

The homeless man, Willie Davis Frazier, was later convicted of assaulting an officer. Duren said Frasier had tried to grab his gun during the struggle. But Frazier's attorney, John Raphling, said his client was mentally ill and didn't do anything to provoke the shooting.

It remains unclear when the independent investigation of the Taser incident will be completed. It will be headed by Merrick Bobb, a veteran watchdog of both the Los Angeles Police and Los Angeles County Sheriff's departments.

Black Swan

I wonder if more books were returned on time after that incident?

RedPlanet

Here's an incident where a person amidst an epileptic seizsure was tasered.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=2675812&page=1
Which shows not only gross incompetence on the part of the police but a willingness to inflict violence to force compliance on a person whom posed no threat to them.
Disgusting.

BaZmO*

RedPlanet wrote:

Here's an incident where a person amidst an epileptic seizsure was tasered.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=2675812&page=1
Which shows not only gross incompetence on the part of the police but a willingness to inflict violence to force compliance on a person whom posed no threat to them.
Disgusting.

:rolleyes: Are these clowns not trained to check for medical bracelets?

Manic Moran

Sparks wrote:

A point to note about the original case in the UCLA library:

Note also that he was declared Officer of the Year in 2001.

NTM

Sparks

And that the incidents in question happened after that point Manic. Being Officer of the Year does not grant exemption from best practise for police officers.

Manic Moran

Absolutely true (At least, for the library and homeless incidents). I was merely pointing out that if someone is going to bring up past controversy into the argument, why not also bring up past positive recognition? Both are equally relevant to the facts in this instance. Or irrelevant, more to the point.

NTM

Sparks

The incidents I pointed out show that this officer has a history of questionable judgements. The Officer of the Year award itself does not bear on that, but the incidents that got him the award would; but those aren't available.

BaZmO*

While we're on the subject of Tasers.

3 cops, 1 handcuffed woman and yet they feel that they need to use a Taser. And by the looks of it she wasn't warned as she was Tasered from behind. It seems like it's just becoming policy to Taser someone just because they're annoying rather than actually posing any form of immediate risk to the Officers present.

Nasty fall too.

Manic Moran

Sparks wrote:

The incidents I pointed out show that this officer has a history of questionable judgements.

What 'history'? The only 'history of questionable judgements' is a single incident fifteen years ago. You may not like the fact that cops in the US can shoot people, but given that the chap was convicted of attacking the cop, and that the cop suffered no adverse administrative reaction from the incident, it indicates that it was not a case of questionable judgement, and bringing it up is simply a red herring.

And by the looks of it she wasn't warned as she was Tasered from behind

You can hear the cop in the video before he shoots. Not sure she was handcuffed either: Look at her hands. They're in front of her, not behind her back, which is where you get cuffed, and just before she gets tased, she seems to have a reasonable range of motion with her hands.

NTM

BaZmO*

Manic Moran wrote:

Look at her hands. They're in front of her, not behind her back, which is where you get cuffed

She's defintiely cuffed. Don't they normally cuff you in the front when in custody? And you can see the glint of the cuffs when she's on the ground after being Tasered.

civdef

Don't they normally cuff you in the front when in custody?

Nope, cuffing behind the person's back is more common now. A person can still hit you cuffed to the front.

BaZmO*

But the woman in that video clip is definitely cuffed in the front tho.