Is it illegal to drink and drive on private property?

Dampsquid

Is it illegal to drink and drive on private property?

Lorax

Dont think so, I have done it anyway

antodeco

Being honest, I hope you're talking about your own private property!

Wishbone Ash

Dampsquid wrote:

Is it illegal to drink and drive on private property?

Of course not!

Road Traffic Act 1961

Section 49

"A person shall not drive or attempt to drive a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place while he is under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a drug to such an extent as to be incapable of having proper control of the vehicle"

maidhc

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Of course not!

Road Traffic Act 1961

Section 49

"A person shall not drive or attempt to drive a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place while he is under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a drug to such an extent as to be incapable of having proper control of the vehicle"

A public place can be private property. E.g. a housing estate or industrial estate

There is a definition of "public place" in s.1 or s.2 of the act. I forget the precise wording of it though.

Victor

If its your garden / driveway / field its probably legal. If members of the public are there, its quite possibly illegal. If its a shopping centre car park / industrial estate, it is definitely illegal.

However, it isn't safe.

mal1

Why? What are you planning?

Wishbone Ash

maidhc wrote:

A public place can be private property. E.g. a housing estate or industrial estate

There is a definition of "public place" in s.1 or s.2 of the act. I forget the precise wording of it though.

Yes:

Public Place: "means any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as a right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge"

Public Road: "means a road the responsibility for the maintenance of which lies with a road authority"

Dampsquid

Just a crazy idea i had when falling asleep last night.

Thinking would it be possible to setup a driving centre, with a course which u would drive around 1st while sober, then after 1 drink, then 2 etc. obviously dual control car. Have carmeras placed around the place recording the driving, to show the driver how drinking affects them on the course. Maybe people prosecuted for drink driving would have to do the course or something.

Lorax

Do speed limits apply on private property?

Wishbone Ash

Dampsquid wrote:

Just a crazy idea i had when falling asleep last night.

Thinking would it be possible to setup a driving centre, with a course which u would drive around 1st while sober, then after 1 drink, then 2 etc. obviously dual control car. Have carmeras placed around the place recording the driving, to show the driver how drinking affects them on the course.

Thats been done numerous times for research.

Lorax wrote:

Do speed limits apply on private property?

Statutory limits would not apply but many private roads apply their own speed limits, eg. schools, hospitals, factories, airports etc.

Almost all of the statutory road traffic regulations apply to a "Public Place" only.

Victor

Lorax wrote:

Do speed limits apply on private property?

It might be down to prosecuting you for trespass or dangerous driving or similar grounds.

Or being banned from your workplace. :eek:

vector

you can drive around you private property, or someone elses private property (as long as you are not trespassing, and as long as they are not public places without a licence, or indeed drunk, as there are no specific law against that

now of course it is not advisible because if it came to court the definition of a "public place" would be come important.

The road outside my house, in a housing estate is private property, viz the county council never "took it over" (is that the phrase?) yet it is a public place.

even if you were wealthy enough to have a large country estate, or race track! it would not a magical area where other laws don't apply, for example if you knocked someone down while driving you would have to face the music for that

so don't drink and drive
(a message from the national safety council supported by axa)

maidhc

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Thats been done numerous times for research.
Statutory limits would not apply but many private roads apply their own speed limits, eg. schools, hospitals, factories, airports etc.

Probably not enforceable though unless there can be some proof of damage.

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Almost all of the statutory road traffic regulations apply to a "Public Place" only.

Probably all of them do. Certainly there is no requirement to tax or insure vehicles, or obey any rules of the road. I'd be highly annoyed if I saw a garda on our farm without a reasonable explanation for his presence!!!

If I knocked down someone while completely pissed and in control of a tractor on a farm I suspect the Occupiers Liability Act, and not road traffic acts would kick in.

Cerdito

I think someone was reading yesterday's Motors section in the Irish Times. Apologise for the repost (premium content) but it's a good article

Irish Times wrote:

One for the road


Last week a Fine Gael councillor claimed that driving after three or four pints wasn't wrong in all cases. Paddy Comyn and Aoibhinn Twomey put the claim to the test


This week has again been a frightening one for Irish motorists. Not only because there has been further loss of life on our roads, but also because of comments in the media by certain politicians that highlighted a startling ignorance about the effects of alcohol on our driving ability.


The problem is that if Fine Gael councillor Michael Fitzgerald's comment that there was nothing wrong with someone driving after three or four pints was unique, then there might not be such cause for concern. But he is not alone. There remains the belief among Irish motorists that there is nothing at all wrong with having a few pints and then driving home.


So we set out to test this theory. Blood Alcohol Content (BAC) is the measurement used to check the concentration of alcohol in our system. It is measured either as a percentage by mass, or by mass per volume, or as a combination. The legal limit for driving is 80mg of alcohol per 100ml of blood so a reading of 0.80 per cent on a breathalyser, such as the Saferdrive personal breathalyser we used for this test puts you over the limit.


Calculating what amount of alcohol puts you over the limit varies according to the height, weight and gender of the person involved. Whether you have eaten a proper meal or indeed slept properly can affect this reading too. But, on average, 2-3 pints for a male and 2-3 glasses of wine for a female would be enough to be illegal.


But what exactly happens to us when we consume alcohol and what are the effects that this has on our driving abilities?


In order to test out our theory we used one car, a new Mitsubishi Colt, two drivers and a relatively new driver on the roads. We differ dramatically in weight. I am a rather well-fed 15 stone at 6'2" with Aoibhinn weighing 8.5 stone at 5'3".


Our drinks were six cans of Guinness for me, and a standard 14 per cent bottle of red wine for her. These added up to roughly the same units of alcohol in total. The task set by the experts at Mondello Park was threefold. First we had to tackle a slalom of cones set up on the track and negotiate a narrow corner and come to a halt with the front wheels of the car within a triangle of three cones.


Secondly, our reactions to a skid were tested in the circuits Advanced Car Control vehicle, which is a specially modified Volkswagen Bora in which understeer and oversteer and characteristics of a skid, can be simulated at the touch of an instructor's button. Thirdly our braking reactions were tested using the circuit's Brake Reaction test. This is a stationary car that is hooked up to a machine that measures how long it takes us to take our foot off the accelerator and get on to the brakes in an emergency situation.


Tackling all these tests at the start of the exercise was pretty easy. The slalom was straight forward enough for both drivers, despite there only really being a pretty short distance between the cones.


Next up was the Advanced Car Control. Our instructor, Mondello Park's Public Relations Manager Fergus Brennan decided to use oversteer, where the back end of the car would break away, to test our reactions.


My first reaction on a pretty high setting was according to Fergus quite smooth and controlled. Aoibhinn's first test on this saw her lacking a little confidence, but the reaction was also quite smooth and timely. Lastly it was on to the Braking Reaction test, where it took Aoibhinn just 0.47 seconds to react to the brake lights. This was faster than my best time of 0.48 seconds.


Both of these times would be deemed as quite good, but in the real world they equate to about 6 metres or 20ft travelled at 50km/h before the driver applies the brakes.


So then it was on to the hard part - the alcohol. We consumed two drinks each - two Guinness for me and two glasses of red wine for Aoibhinn. These were not bolted, but consumed as normal and 20 minutes was allowed to make the breathalyser test more accurate.


The results were already surprising. I was measuring 0.11 per cent after just two pints of Guinness. I was now illegal to drive after a mere two pints of my favourite tipple. The same was true of Aoibhinn. Her two glasses of wine has given her a reading of 0.12 per cent so she too in the eyes of the law was unfit to drive. I felt fine after my two drinks, and perfectly capable to drive, but Aoibhinn reported feeling a little sluggish after her two glasses of wine and not particularly keen on driving.


So what would the tests tell us? Tackling the slalom and the Advanced Car Control again, there was a change in both drivers, but not necessarily for the better.


Our instructor, Fergus Brennan, was not impressed. "Both drivers hit cones and there was a definite reduction in ability and both drivers showed a lack of understanding of where the cones were. In the skid car, the behaviour was totally incompatible to road safety. The erratic driving was typical with increased confidence but decreased capability. They had definitely started to become a danger."


There was also, more worryingly a change in the brake reaction test. We both displayed erratic responses and our worst times were 0.72 seconds for Aoibhinn to get onto the brakes and 0.75 for me. This equated to an extra 1.5 metres more than the previous test, and this was concentrating fully on the task.


So it was time to consume more alcohol - two more pints for me and two more glasses of wine for Aoibhinn. Again, we waited the required 20 minutes after drinking the second drink and were breathalysed and this time, after just four pints of the black stuff, I was reading 0.24 per cent and Aoibhinn after four glasses of wine was reading 0.32 per cent. That is exactly three times over the limit for me and four times the limit for Aoibhinn.


Instructor Fergus Brennan noted that Aoibhinn's driving ability had deteriorated dramatically. The Advanced Car Control test for Aoibhinn was very poor and she was unable to react properly to the skid. She was in effect a danger. My own ability was not that much better. I was displaying a bravado that in my head wasn't there, but was obvious by my performance.


The speed with which I tackled the tasks had increased but I was unable to complete the slalom without hitting cones and my reaction to controlling the skid car was very poor. Again, I countered the skid with aggression and this resulted in me losing control of the car violently. Despite feeling as if I had the ability, I clearly didn't.


I was not driving like an idiot. The brake reaction test remained quite consistent with the previous result, although Aoibhinn felt the task becoming much more difficult.


Aoibhinn did not feel capable of continuing and it was agreed that she should take no further part in the test, as it would prove little. So it was down to me to down the last two drinks in the interests of science. After the last two drinks I was reading 0.31 per cent on the breathalyser, so I was now almost four times over the limit.


My last attempt at the cones test was a shambles. Despite years of experience at such task I could not longer judge distances or my own speed correctly, yet found the whole thing funny. My control of the skid car was equally pathetic. I reacted slowly to the skid and according to Brennan I was now presenting a serious danger. I measured 0.77 seconds to react on my final braking test but this was giving the task my full if somewhat diminished attention. I would imagine that the standard distractions within a car and on the road would only make this worse.


The result of this experiment was clear, and worse than we could have expected. After just two drinks we were not only illegal to drive, but we clearly had seriously impeded driving ability. This became significantly worse after two more.


The most worrying self-reported effect was bravado. I felt more capable than I normally do to tackle the tasks and displayed a cockiness that horrified me on reflection. I would consider myself a professional driver with years of road testing experience under my belt, but after alcohol I was as much of an incompetent fool as anyone else who sits into a car with alcohol in their system will undoubtedly be.

overdriver

No further questions, your honour. Wonder what the TD would make of that?

LikeOhMyGawd!

At the point Aoibhinn felt to drunk to continue driving, the experiment should have moved onto the 'phoning a cab home' task. If she was able to have a taxi pick her up and have her home with 45 minutes that would have been a pass and a pat on the back for her. In the failure of a taxi turning up, the test should have moved into the next phase. Afer continued imbibing, she would be offered a lift home by someone who is marginally drunk. Would she be sober enough to recognise the person as potentially being over the limit and decline, or would she be drunk enough enough to accept? That, I imagine, would be a more realistic challenge, coupled with a final 'next day driving test' down to the family planning clinic to get the morning after pill as no doubt she would have been up for a bit of a root in the back of the Bora with Paddy (who she would never have rode if had she been sober):)

echomadman

The legal limit for driving is 80mg of alcohol per 100ml of blood so a reading of 0.80 per cent on a breathalyser, such as the Saferdrive personal breathalyser we used for this test puts you over the limit.

ok, but

The results were already surprising. I was measuring 0.11 per cent after just two pints of Guinness. I was now illegal to drive after a mere two pints of my favourite tipple. The same was true of Aoibhinn. Her two glasses of wine has given her a reading of 0.12 per cent so she too in the eyes of the law was unfit to drive. I felt fine after my two drinks, and perfectly capable to drive, but Aoibhinn reported feeling a little sluggish after her two glasses of wine and not particularly keen on driving.

What? did they miss a decimal place? 0.11 is less than 0.8.
is that supposed to read 0.08?
terrible editors that let that slip through

LikeOhMyGawd!

Breathalysers give the value of blood alcohol levels based on the partition ratio of breath alcohol to blood alcohol (is presumed to be about 2100:1 AFAIK). But this ratio can vary between 1700 and 2400:1 and so the blood alcohol levels indicated by a breathalyser may be off the mark. Until there has been a blood or unine sample taken and analysed you can't be deemed to be actually over the limits. The Jurnos' statement that "a reading of 0.80 per cent on a breathalyser, such as the Saferdrive personal breathalyser we used for this test puts you over the limit" is strictly speaking, not true.
The the part of their conclusion

wrote:

"After just two drinks we were not only illegal to drive"

is also not necessarily true when using their methodology.

According to Transport Minister, Martin Cullen, T.D

wrote:

"preliminary roadside breath testing is to provide Gardaí with a facility to assist them in determining whether a person in charge of a mechanically propelled vehicle has consumed alcohol"

In short, these journalists have come staright from the Charlie Bird school of pointless, half-cocked and poorly thought out reporting.

Wishbone Ash

overdriver wrote:

No further questions, your honour. Wonder what the TD would make of that?

"Your honour". :eek: Overdriver - adress a judge here like that and they will go bananas and accuse you of watching too much Judge Judy.

"My Lord" or simply "Judge" will do nicely.

overdriver

Let's hope I never have to use that advice, Wishbone!

Hotblack Desiato

LikeOhMyGawd! wrote:

Until there has been a blood or unine sample taken and analysed you can't be deemed to be actually over the limits.

That's as it used to be all right.
We have evidential breath testing now though don't we?

Budd

Go for it. Best craic ever running around my garden weaving between the trees on the scooter with a few drinks. Just know the risks.