Dutch Govt ban Burqa, should we?

nacho libre

You only have to look at the schism between Sunnis and Shias to see it isn't a hierarchical faith


Over the years Shi'ism has developed into a more mystical religion on the whole with a common belief that the last true successor to the Caliphate, called the Imam went into hiding hundreds of years ago and will one day Re-emerge to save the world from the infidel (Shi'ism, therefore, could be called a messianic religion). Further, because of its reliance on esoteric reading, a number of interpretations have developed and thus Shi'ism has split into dozens of different sects. Sunniism, on the other hand, has not really broken up as much because they take a literal approach (not much room for translation).
However, Sunni judges have differed on different points of Sha'ria law, and thus the Sunni "rites" (or madhhabs) have developed. There are only four (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i, and Hanbali). They differ only based on what kinds of legal procedures they take what kind of precedence they recognize, what kinds of punishments should be handed down, and other kinds of lawyer type stuff, etc. Thus, they are not distinct religious
sects, and are all recognized as valid (but each country has a preference). Some from the most conservative branch, the Hanbali, have formed a movement called the Wahhabis. This would be Saudi Arabia (the house of Saud has historical ties to the founder of the movement).
The Shi'ites also have their own rites but they are quite a bit different.

mountainyman

Jesus wept nacho libre who cares? That is an irrelevance and an insult to decent muslims I am talking about burqa wearers.

Yeah and there are Ismaili Muslims as well. The point is a Burqa isn't worn by Shiites or Ismailis or most Sunnis. It is a statement of solidarity with the most retrograde elements of Sunni Islam.

Even in remote and backward parts of the Muslim world there are more liberal muslims. Those women who wear the Burqa stand against those liberals and for teh destruction of the bamiyan buddhas.

How dare people tar all muslims with the brush of these lunatics. The burqa must be banned and those who wish to wear it deported if not Irish and sectioned if they are Irish.

MM

mountainyman

bonkey there is a link immediately beneath the quote you reference.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm.htm
I fail to see how the site above is evangelical Christian by the way, if anything it appears secularist.
If you are incapable of clicking it that is hardly my concern.

Helter Skelter claimed that genital multilation is 'totally against Islam' this is wrong according to Al Azhar not according to me.
It is possible that people can believe different things about the religion with none being incorrect however those who wear the burqa make a statement about their beliefs (I am speaking of people who don't live in areas where this is complusory). To claim that an unnamed website HelterSkelter and the grand Mufti of Al Azhar university must be treated equally as authorities is ludicrous.

Clearly there are currents within Islam which approve of female genital multiliation. To wear a burqa is to stand in soldiarity with the currents.

MM

Schuhart

aidan24326 wrote:

You need only look to some of the websites (considered 'reputable' by many muslims) that analyse the 'scientific knowledge' as revealed by the quran, to see the sort of nonsense that is prevalent across the board.

I know exactly what you mean, and have precisely the same feelings about those ‘miracles’ accounts. At the same time, I think something is to be gained by reading how people describe their own faith.

This information does need to be evaluated. If you read something on answering-islam, you really do need to confirm the facts they are using from an Islamic source. Their material reads fine to me if you take it as a fundamentalist Christian view of Islam. But it needs to be seen through that filter.

Also, if you look at religious sources you will actually find enough material to substantiate what you need to say. I don’t want to divert this thread into something that’s a topic in its own right, but on the point that has been mentioned this material on islamonline.net seems to be a reasonable attempt to give a quick and concise view of female circumcision from an Isalmic perspective. This material seems to acknowledge it is widely practiced in some Islamic countries, and not in others. The picture it paints is of a practice that is not condemned but at the same time not obligatory. The view that it ‘dignifies’ women seems to be respected. Those basic facts seem to me to be enough to form an opinion on that question, and to have enough of a basis for rejecting the idea that that this practice is seen as utterly abhorrent to Islamic doctrine, just as it is wrong to regard it as a core obligation of the faith. Hence, there is some value to be gained from looking at religious websites.

That said, there is no particular point in exploring circumcision on this thread. It only seems to serve to cover the lack of any real reason for banning the burka. If someone was suggesting that female circumcision be formally banned (I don’t know if it is already), then indeed there would be more of an issue at stake. But that’s a debate for another day.

mountainyman

Female circumcision is banned in Ireland, however the risk of female genital mutilation is not grounds for asylum.

MM

Lads.

1 week ban for the next off topic post in this thread.
If I come back here and find 4 or 5 posters going off topic,they will all get the one week ban.

Stay on topic and that means discussing the wearing of the burka,religous symbolism,the rights and wrongs of banning it etc

Use your head to figure out what is covered by "etc" but I can tell you one thing,it does not include Islam bashing for the sake of it.

You have been warned.

Lennoxschips

There is no Burka problem in Holland. I've never seen anybody wearing one. The mayor of Amsterdam says only a handful of people wear them. The whole burka thing was just an election ploy to get extreme right wing voters to vote for the VVD isntead of the ultra nationalist Freedom Party. I doubt it will be passed after the elections.

The poster who mentioned that there is a strong semi-racist undercurrent in Holland is spot on.

Dutch election results (150 seat parliament):

CDA (Christian Democrats) - 41
PvdA (Labour) - 32
SP (Anti-EU Socialists) - 26
VVD (Thatcherites/PDs) - 22
Freedom Party (BNP) - 9
Green Left - 7
Christian Union - 6
Others - 7

As you can see, no two parties can form a 76 seat majority. The whole political landscape has been shattered into splinters. There may have to be new elections.

aidan24326

What has become of the OP? No further replies.

nacho libre

mountainyman wrote:

Jesus wept nacho libre who cares? That is an irrelevance and an insult to decent muslims I am talking about burqa wearers.

Yeah and there are Ismaili Muslims as well. The point is a Burqa isn't worn by Shiites or Ismailis or most Sunnis. It is a statement of solidarity with the most retrograde elements of Sunni Islam.

Even in remote and backward parts of the Muslim world there are more liberal muslims. Those women who wear the Burqa stand against those liberals and for teh destruction of the bamiyan buddhas.

How dare people tar all muslims with the brush of these lunatics. The burqa must be banned and those who wish to wear it deported if not Irish and sectioned if they are Irish.

MM

Thanks for proving my point. As i pointed out there are various interpretations of the Koran. It is not a hieracrhical faith.
Who are you to tell these women they can't wear the Burqua?
Some muslim women abhor wearing the burqua, some willingly choose to wear it.To suggest those that do are wedded to the virulent ideology of the taliban(the tailban blew up the bamiyan buddhas) is distateful and tawdry.
If i'm not mistaken the rights of every religious group to freely practice their religion is enshrined in the constitution.
I believe any religious man or woman should have the liberty and freedom to respond to their higher authority- provided they are not infracting or in conflict with the laws of the country they reside in.

ps: Ban me for a week if i have broken the charter of the board by posting this.

Victor

aidan24326 wrote:

What has become of the OP? No further replies.

gurramok has posted 9 times on htis thread.

nacho libre wrote:

ps: Ban me for a week if i have broken the charter of the board by posting this.

Banned. k thnx bye.

aidan24326

Originally Posted by aidan24326
What has become of the OP? No further replies.

Victor wrote:

gurramok has posted 9 times on htis thread.

Apologies. Posted that in the wrong thread!