I just had a horrible thought - please reassure me regarding prison voting.

The_Minister

As you all know, the Supreme court recently ruled that we had to let prisoners vote. I disagree with this, but thats another thread.
What chilled me, is the question of where they will vote. If they vote in their home areas, then their votes will be spread out. But, what if they have to vote in the area within which they reside? That will mean that every area with a jail will have a few hundred extra votes, and most elections are decided by less than that, so prisoners will get to determine several TDs:eek: .
Think of it! TDs beholden to prisoners for their seats. That is not something that I want to see. Leaving aside the fact that most of them will vote Sinn Fein, it could lead to a situation where parties campaign for lighter sentencing!
Someone tell me that I'm wrong and that they will vote where they lived before they went to prison.

aidan_walsh

I'm thinking mandatory postal voting.

Villain

The_Minister wrote:

Leaving aside the fact that most of them will vote Sinn Fein

Thats a very intelligent comment, well researched, well presented and above all well proven :rolleyes:

The_Minister

irish1 wrote:

Thats a very intelligent comment, well researched, well presented and above all well proven :rolleyes:

Sinn Fein themselves call themselves the "party of the dispossessed", the marginalised, who fits in there more than prisoners.
This isn't the issue though. I want someone to be able to give me a definitive answer, will prisoners decide several seats in the next election?

daithimac

ye i'm sure there are a few in there who were kneecapped by the ra and wouldn't vote shin fein for love nor money:)

daithimac

seriously though. i would think that it would operate in the same manner as soilders who are stationed away from there homes.

flogen

daithimac wrote:

seriously though. i would think that it would operate in the same manner as soilders who are stationed away from there homes.

You can't compare soldiers to criminals, where do you think we are, America?

Seriously though, I'd imagine it would indeed be a postal vote; I find it hard to believe they'd put them as part of the local constituency; the thought of politicians canvassing gangsters isn't at all appealing.

mike65

Politicans have been canvasing gangsters for decades now!

Mike.

constitutionus

i have a sneeking suspicion they'll have to vote where theyre predominatly domicile. i.e the constituancy of the the prison. hey maybe thats why macdowel is so hot for thornton hall

the logical thing would be postal votes, but our governments arent exactly renowned for that particular prowess

gurramok

The_Minister wrote:

.
Leaving aside the fact that most of them will vote Sinn Fein, it could lead to a situation where parties campaign for lighter sentencing!
.

Please provide proof that at least 10%+ of the electorate and at least 20%+ up north are criminals?
I've voted for SF, FF, Greens in my lifetime, does that mean i'm a criminal???

Anyway, don't know why your concerned, the prison system is not that populated to effect any election outcome unless the majority of the public are criminals as well.

flogen

mike65 wrote:

Politicans have been canvasing gangsters for decades now!

Mike.

You've made a terrible mistake there, mike... you left the word 'canvasing' in by accident.

Time Magazine

gurramok wrote:

Please provide proof that at least 10%+ of the electorate and at least 20%+ up north are criminals?

Aside from the obvious count of people who have speeding tickets to their name etc., his argument is not commutative. I think it's fairly reasonable to assume that a large proportion of criminals would vote Sinn Féin, even in the absence of empirical evidence either way; but this does not propose that a large proportion of Sinn Féin voters are criminals.*

flogen wrote:

You've made a terrible mistake there, mike... you left the word 'canvasing' in by accident.

I think he meant to leave it in, as in the only difference is that they canvass .

*That's purely coincidence...

J.S. Pill

The_Minister wrote:

But, what if they have to vote in the area within which they reside? That will mean that every area with a jail will have a few hundred extra votes, and most elections are decided by less than that, so prisoners will get to determine several TDs:eek: .
Think of it! TDs beholden to prisoners for their seats.

Get to determine? Beholden to? Think about those words for one second mate. Expand that logic - if a all the workers of a Jacobs Biscuit factory were concentrated in one constituency would politicians suddenly adopt a radical biscuit friendly agenda at the expense of everyone else? (weird example but I'm eating a fig roll). They would be 'beholden' to a given group who command a few hundred votes only insofar as support for this group doesn't detract from support from all other significant groups.

The_Minister

gurramok wrote:

Please provide proof that at least 10%+ of the electorate and at least 20%+ up north are criminals?
I've voted for SF, FF, Greens in my lifetime, does that mean i'm a criminal???

Anyway, don't know why your concerned, the prison system is not that populated to effect any election outcome unless the majority of the public are criminals as well.

Not all Sinners are criminals, but I suspect that most criminals are shinners:D

I'm worried because if they vote in the constituencies where they reside (where the prison is located) then they have enough to tip the scales of elections, and I have a real problem with criminals being able to do that.
Elections in our system are often only won by tiny margins - thats why politicians go for every vote.

Time Magazine

Fig Roll Man, The_Minister has a point. I'm not too well up on the location of our prisions, but let's say there's one in Kerry South.

This is the result of the last GE in Kerry South. Look how close it is for that seat. A couple of hundred votes can be everything.

Here's another random result. Damn close.

mackerski

Ibid wrote:

This is the result of the last GE in Kerry South. Look how close it is for that seat. A couple of hundred votes can be everything.

Of course, in that same election in Kerry North the poll was topped by a Shinner who also just happened to be a criminal.

Dermot

Just My View

Well they could always vote FF, Ray Burke for instance, oh wait...

Villain

Just My View wrote:

Well they could always vote FF, Ray Burke for instance, oh wait...

ROFL, excellent point.

Perhaps rather than trying to guess WHO the prisoners might vote for, it might be worth thinking about how many prisoners would actually bother voting.

Victor

Will the privacy of these postal votes be respected by the prison censor?

fly_agaric

The_Minister wrote:

Think of it! TDs beholden to prisoners for their seats. That is not something that I want to see. Leaving aside the fact that most of them will vote Sinn Fein, it could lead to a situation where parties campaign for lighter sentencing!

Don't you think deliberately and obviously courting a recidivist criminal vote in some way because your constituency has a prison in it would tend to alienate and maybe enrage all those other voters/interest groups who are not criminals?
I wouldn't lose any sleep over it!:rolleyes:

BTW, why shouldn't prisoners be able to vote? (actually, maybe don't answer - will probably derail the thread...)

Tricity Bendix

J.S. Pill wrote:

Get to determine? Beholden to? Think about those words for one second mate. Expand that logic - if a all the workers of a Jacobs Biscuit factory were concentrated in one constituency would politicians suddenly adopt a radical biscuit friendly agenda at the expense of everyone else? (weird example but I'm eating a fig roll). They would be 'beholden' to a given group who command a few hundred votes only insofar as support for this group doesn't detract from support from all other significant groups.

It is not beyond the realms of possibility to imagine such a group of madeup politicians becoming very vocal about the need to protect the jobs of workers at said biscuit factory from cheaper biscuits imported from Eastern Europe. Politicians might also be tempted to fight for better working conditions for those in the confectionary industry in an effort to keep their seats.

If a politician comes out lovely little sound bites like 'prison doesn't work' or 'we need to be harder on the roots of crime, not criminals', it isn't impossible to imagine them picking up a significant votes from prisoners without seriously impacting the vote they would get from the general population.

A scary prospect indeed. The Supreme Court kicks the country in the balls once more.

The_Minister

fly_agaric wrote:

BTW, why shouldn't prisoners be able to vote? (actually, maybe don't answer - will probably derail the thread...)

Humanities FTW

But, seriously, can anyone give me a definitive answer? Not a, I suppose, or an I'd presume, but a real answer. Because if not, then I'm going to write to McDowell about this. I feel really uncomfortable living in a society where elected representatives owe their jobs to criminals, and those representatives may one day control the position of Minister of Justice.

EDIT: I'm not normally this reactionary, but this is something that I feel strongly about.

mackerski

fly_agaric wrote:

BTW, why shouldn't prisoners be able to vote?

Citizens of a free country get to exercise a number of rights. One of them, for instance, is being allowed to serve on a jury. This is a right that is also revoked from prisoners. I suppose it's easy enough to see why. Certainly, you'd think that a breaker of laws might not be fit to judge defendants under those same laws.

As for voting, that's the right to choose the people who make the laws. Now, we have a cushy enough criminal justice system compared to certain other countries, not that I'd want to be on the wrong side of it myself. Not getting to vote seems a small (and warranted) curtailment of an imprisoned citizen's rights IMHO.

Dermot

Villain

Can you give a me link to some news article on this decision.

Also I doubt the numbers are going to make that much difference:

As of 23rd June 2006, the number of prisoners in each prison was as follows;

Institution / Number in Custody Mountjoy (m) / 495
Mountjoy (f) / 87
St Patrick’s / 192
Cork / 261
Limerick (m) / 277
Limerick (f) / 17
Castlerea / 210
Cloverhill / 382
Wheatfield / 377
Portlaoise / 112
Arbour Hill / 138
Training Unit / 91
Midlands / 439
Loughan / 103
Shelton Abbey / 56
Totals / 3237

The_Minister

irish1 wrote:

Also I doubt the numbers are going to make that much difference:

All it takes is a few hundred to tip several areas.

Villain

Any chance of a link to this story??

The_Minister

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs/story/0,11026,1586168,00.html

The Press Release:
http://www.echr.coe.int/Eng/Press/2005/Oct/GrandChamberJudgmentHirstvUK061005.html

Villain

I thought you said the Supreme court had ruled here??

The last time I know of our supreme court ruling on this was:

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=448228&issue_id=4611

wow sierra

The prisoners will be voting by post in the constituency they lived in prior to going to prison not in the constituency that the prison is located in. I dont think we needed to worry about prisoners campaigning for shorter sentences -the lack of prison spaces ensures short sentences as it is.

Victor

It would have much more impact in a local election than a national one.

Of course, in forming a constituency, does one count the prison population or not (its difficult not to).

aidan24326

Ibid wrote:

Aside from the obvious count of people who have speeding tickets to their name etc., his argument is not commutative. I think it's fairly reasonable to assume that a large proportion of criminals would vote Sinn Féin, even in the absence of empirical evidence either way; but this does not propose that a large proportion of Sinn Féin voters are criminals.*

I think he meant to leave it in, as in the only difference is that they canvass .

*That's purely coincidence...

Yeah, a hyphen would have been appropriate, as in canvassing-gangsters.