I just had a horrible thought - please reassure me regarding prison voting.

Hotblack Desiato

Victor wrote:

Jakkass wrote:

are prisoners allowed run for elections?

Generally no. I think prisoners serving very short sentences can.
It would be quite an anomaly for a prisoner to demand his right to attend the Dail.

In the early 80s several "H-Block" candidates were elected to the Dail. I believe at least one was imprisoned within the State at the time.
At least one hunger-striker's death was greeted with the official flying of the Tricolour at half-mast, as an elected representative of the Dail. Grotesque but true.

Diogenes

ninja900 wrote:

In the early 80s several "H-Block" candidates were elected to the Dail. I believe at least one was imprisoned within the State at the time.
At least one hunger-striker's death was greeted with the official flying of the Tricolour at half-mast, as an elected representative of the Dail. Grotesque but true.

Again I don't know what is it but I'm finding it really bizarre for people to call the decisions of the electorial grotesque for voting for someone you disagree with.

Tristame, I'm going to speak to some other people working on the count on the 97 election, to see if I can track down some referenced accounts of the behaviour of FF/PD monitors before I response to your post, which in my opinion, dips to a rather petty pedantic, and nitpicking tone, thats ironic because at the same time you demand I hold myself to a higher standard than you seem to hold yourself to.

But of course thats just my opinion....

Diogenes

Diogenes wrote:

Again I don't know what is it but I'm finding it really bizarre for people to call the decisions of the electorial grotesque for voting for someone you disagree with.

Tristame, I'm going to speak to some other people working on the count on the 97 election, to see if I can track down some referenced accounts of the behaviour of FF/PD monitors before I response to your post, which in my opinion, dips to a rather petty pedantic, and nitpicking tone, thats ironic because at the same time you demand I hold myself to a higher standard than you seem to hold yourself to.

But of course thats just my opinion....

Discussing moderation in thread here one more time and there will be a 2 week ban imposed.
Thread reopened by request but it will close pretty sharply if it descends again into what closed it.

The_Minister

There have been new developments on this topic, so I have asked the lovely Tristame to reopen this thread.

Irish Independant wrote:

Sinn Fein candidate goes for the prisoner vote

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A SINN Fein TD is planning to seek votes from prisoners in advance of the general election.

Aengus O Snodaigh said he believed it was important to reach out to prisoners so that they did not feel excluded from society.

"At the end of the day, the majority of these people will come out into society again and part of the role of prison is rehabilitation. If you distance them from the normal activities of society, such as voting, then you don't want people coming out who feel excluded or hard done by."

Since new legislation was passed last November to allow prisoners to vote using postal ballots, 404 of the state's 3,200 prisoners have registered with their local authorities.

They may vote for candidates in their home constituency only, rather than their prison constituency.

Mr O Snodaigh accepted that many victims would be upset at the prospect of politicians getting votes from people who had committed "horrendous crimes".

"But we can't pick and choose.

"If they are part of the electorate, they should be able to take part and they should be able to receive literature to help them make up their minds."

He is planning to mail his election literature to prisoners on the postal ballot register, which also includes senior citizens, diplomats and soldiers and gardai serving abroad.

Although two of the State's main prisons, Cloverhill and Wheatfield, are in Mr O Snodaigh's constituency of Dublin South Central, he estimated that only 50 prisoners would be entitled to vote for him.

"There's no guarantee those 50 would vote for me. They might have no time for my stance on crime or drugs or other issues. I'd be concentrating more trying on getting the 50pc of the constituency who don't vote, out to vote."

Right

Although there was cross party agreement last year on the right to provide election material to prisoners, politicians do not have the right to canvass inside prisons.

Legislation giving prisoners the vote was introduced as a result of a decision by the European Court of Human Rights in 2005, which found that the British government had violated a prisoner's rights by refusing him the opportunity to vote in an election.

The Irish Penal Reform Trust said the fact that 404 prisoners had registered to vote was a positive development.

"It shows there is interest in prisoner voting. We would like some type of independent audit after the election to see where the prisoners were from and if they knew they were entitled to vote," its director Rick Lines said.

Michael Brennan

Link: http://www.evening-herald.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1804880&issue_id=15448

Basically, it seems to answer several issues raised by people.

1) Many people said that Sinn Fein woud not get prisoner's votes, yet they are the only party seeking them.
2) Many said that no party would ever seek those votes because of a public backlash, yet, there seems to be no backlash.
3) 404 votes will come from prisoners, many of whom come from the same disadvantaged areas. Since 16 votes have turned some elections, I think some of those who said that prisoners votes could be the difference between a candidate reaching power or not were right.

I still think that long-term prisoners should not vote.

Nick_oliveri

I do not believe that this is a thread which should be closed and buried in this particular forum in any circumstance.

Im of the opinion that prisoners should have no say in what happens in society. They should not have the right to and Sinn Fein should not have the right to seek these particular votes.

I can see little flyers going around the Joy titled "Want Out?"!

Edit: maybe the thread title should be changed so more people might want to share their opinion or facts.

I've just deleted one post by a user here.
If I see any other post calling a journalist names or similar,I will delete the post and ban the poster for a month.

lostexpectation

Tristrame wrote:

I've just deleted one post by a user here.
If I see any other post calling a journalist names or similar,I will delete the post and ban the poster for a month.

that article is typical indo scaremongering, are you telling me that all other parties are not sending out info about their candidate to all those on the (postal) voting list.


conjuring up a story about a particular SF man is desperate 'journalism'.

:rolleyes: :mad:

The article suggests that only O'Snodaigh is canvassing and as the only canvassing allowed in prison is via leaflet , then that is what the article is suggesting.
If you think it's not true then,you will have to find evidence that it isn't.

By the way I know your reply above is actually to the_minister and not me.
The piece from me that you have quoted is referring to the post that I deleted and stands.
No naming and accusations towards individuals will be allowed here.

I'd hazzard a guess though that all parties will end up sending in literature if they get it sent to all on the postal ballot.

What would be special though in this case would be if O'Snodaigh personally posted targetted literature to prisoners urging them to vote for him or his party.


I'm leaning towards the view that this story is possibly conjured up in that it may be based on the Indo asking all parties the same question and of course only O'Snodaigh's reply was more interesting.
All parties are likely to send in literature by default though.
Whether it has the effect that the OP is afraid of is dependent on quite a few things not least how tight a constituency is but also on who is more likely to vote in a prison.
I'd imagine republicans would be more politically aware than most.
We don't know if the 50 or so of O' snodaig's constituents or indeed what percentage of the whole 404 registered voters are Republicans though.
They could in fact be in for white collar crime or even be PD voters

johnnyskeleton

Sorry if I'm repeating some other posts, but...

The_Minister wrote:

As you all know, the Supreme court recently ruled that we had to let prisoners vote. I disagree with this, but thats another thread.
What chilled me, is the question of where they will vote. If they vote in their home areas, then their votes will be spread out. But, what if they have to vote in the area within which they reside? That will mean that every area with a jail will have a few hundred extra votes, and most elections are decided by less than that, so prisoners will get to determine several TDs:eek: .
Think of it! TDs beholden to prisoners for their seats. That is not something that I want to see. Leaving aside the fact that most of them will vote Sinn Fein, it could lead to a situation where parties campaign for lighter sentencing!
Someone tell me that I'm wrong and that they will vote where they lived before they went to prison.

It will be by postal vote in their own constituency. You can look at the act on www.oireachtas.ie

Just because they are registered to vote, does not mean they will, and I think that if the prison authorities feel the same as you do, they will make it as hard as possible for those prisoners to vote.

I don't think it is a bad thing that prisoners vote - I think it lets them know that they are still part of society and can still reform their ways. Not all persons in jail are evil crime bosses (sadly, very few of those kind are in jail), and in prison may well be the first chance they've ever had to vote.

As for your concern that politicians will campaign on lower sentences, with the greatest of respect that is not a valid concern. When have you ever known a politician to keep his promises? Besides, Judges decide sentencing, not politicians.

I would respectfully suggest to you that your concern is not that prisoners will be voting, but rather that there is such a low turnout from everyone else. 404 votes is, no matter what slant you put on it, not many votes. FF will get more just by sending a minibus to 1 nursing home.

jakkas wrote:

are prisoners allowed run for elections?

Many of the original Dail TDs were in prison during the election (Dev, Arthur Griffith, Cathal Brugha etc). I think Bobby Sands was too. I'm sure Nelson Mandela, if he didn't actually run for election, was heavily involved in politics.

Also, Joe Higgins TD was in Mountjoy jail a few years ago over the bin charges fiasco.

K-9

johnnyskeleton wrote:

I would respectfully suggest to you that your concern is not that prisoners will be voting, but rather that there is such a low turnout from everyone else. 404 votes is, no matter what slant you put on it, not many votes. FF will get more just by sending a minibus to 1 nursing home.

Or SF getting the dead to vote

Victor

Of note, in setting up constituencies, prisoners are counted as resident in prison, but when it comes to voting, the vote goes to their home constituency.

This makes Dublin Central (Mountjoy, St. Patricks, Training Unit and the Dochas Centre) and Dublin South Central (Cloverhill, Wheatfield), with nearly 1,000 prisoners each, slightly over-represented.

marco murphy

Leaving aside the fact that most of them will vote Sinn Fein

Bollocks like this goes to far sometimes.

Poblachtach

Poblachtach wrote:

Bollocks like this goes to far sometimes.

Your point caller?

Nevyn

There is also the fact that many of the prisoners come from certain areas in dublin and would there for be voting for certain tds.

If prisoners have thier franchise will they be pushing for tds to visit them in prison and how many more letter writing scandles on the behalf of prisoners will we have then.

FTA69

People end up in jail because they're outside society, how many criminals do you think bother their arse in voting in the first place? I can't see heated debates on energy policy taking place on landings in Cork Prison to be honest...

pigeonbutler

Firstly on the substantive point it has been made clear by the government that prisoners will vote in the constituency they lived in prior to being detained.

Secondly I think that saying most criminals will vote Sinn Fein is even less valid than me saying "most rich selfish mé féin b*stards" vote for the PDs.

Lets think about the prison population, should someone who's in prison because they didn't pay fines/debts be deprived of the most fundamental democratic right? If not, how will we pick and choose the prisoners that are "worthy" of suffrage? I'm shocked at how the PDs, a supposed liberal party, can sound so much like the US Republican party.

For the record I'm a FFer so in theory I'm supposed to agree with the likes of The_Minister. Roll on the 30th Dáil and some decent coalition partners!

Victor

lol

FTA69 wrote:

heated debates on energy policy taking place on landings in Cork Prison to be honest...

johnnyskeleton

FTA69 wrote:

People end up in jail because they're outside society, how many criminals do you think bother their arse in voting in the first place? I can't see heated debates on energy policy taking place on landings in Cork Prison to be honest...

A lot of them are just ordinary guys who made a huge mistake and are now paying for it.

If we let them vote, and give them a second chance when they come out, they may never offend again, and they may even contribute to society.

If we brand them as outlaws and shun them, we are asking them to become outlaws and to shun us in turn, thus possibly leading to further offending.

The article shows that 404 out of 3200 (I assume this is the figure for adult prisoners), less than 8%. Furthermore, not everyone who is registered will vote. Given that there is wide variety of prisoners, from people who get into drunken fights, carry drugs for extra cash, shoplift, or are in jail for political reasons (e.g. the Rosport 5, journalists, politicans etc who make a stand) and this goes all the way up to murders, rapists and arsonists, I think that at least 8% of them deserve to vote.

Also, if giving prisoners the right to vote makes them take an interest in energy policy for example, isn't this a good thing?

Diogenes

Tristrame wrote:

Your point caller?

I think he's right, the suggestion from the OP is that SF is the natural party for criminals to vote for, ergo that anyone who votes for SF supports criminal activity.

Now I'm not a SFer, but I think it's a reprenhensible suggestion, SF have made major advances in all communities in Ireland by having an effective grassroots organisation, and by promising left wing policy (whether they deliver or not) they are a legitmate organisation and people who vote or are members of SF don't deserve the slur that their party is the party of choice of criminals.

Christ considering the behaviour of FF in government this last decade such an accusation would be as well fitted at their feet, but I doubt it would be considered as acceptable.

As for the Angus O'S quote it follows in a long line of Indo journalists, crawling through the dirt to misquote a politican. I doubt theres a single politician in this country who would try and alienate a single bloc of voters (barring the paedophile priest's for boy scout troop leaders lobby, theres a voter turn off) It's seems to me that Angus is saying you cannot disenfranchise prisoners, and the Indo is turning this into "SF TD in free heroin for prisoner votes shocker'.

Its contemptable journalism as per usual from the Indo, and pathetic scaremongering, there's nothing in the body of his statement that says he's particularly targeting prisoners, he's just including them in the mail drop he'd sent out anyway, which I imagine is drawn up from the census, and isn't directly targeted at prisoners, just the current address of people who can vote in his constitutencies.

Hypothetically "The Minister" (If I may add a very pompous self agrandising username) would you be as outraged if the PDs, or FF, or Labour did the same? Whats your problem, that prisoners can vote? Or who they may vote for?

FTA69

johnnyskeleton wrote:

A lot of them are just ordinary guys who made a huge mistake and are now paying for it.

The majority of them are ordinary fellas who have made many small mistakes (assualt, burglary, theft etc) and have been banged up as a result. More are drug addicts.

If we let them vote, and give them a second chance when they come out, they may never offend again, and they may even contribute to society.

Do you know anyone who was ever in jail? Its poverty breeds crime and letting people vote (who wouldn't vote anyway) isn't going to make a sh*te of a difference.

heated debates on energy policy taking place on landings in Cork Prison to be honest...

Bloody wags.

johnnyskeleton

FTA69 wrote:

Do you know anyone who was ever in jail? Its poverty breeds crime and letting people vote (who wouldn't vote anyway) isn't going to make a sh*te of a difference.

Yes, I do, and I think that being an outsider or a social reject is a significant cause of crime.

I don't think it is poverty, so much as disadvantage, that breeds crime. They go hand in hand to a certain degree, but poverty does not lead to crime in the same way that wealth does not lead away from crime.

In any case, most of the prisoners haven't registered to vote. I think it is fair to conclude then that letting most prisoners vote won't make a "sh*te of a difference". However, for the few that do want to vote, it might make a difference, and in the absence of any real reason to the contrary they should be allowed to vote on even the off-chance that it will bring them back into society.

Victor

Diogenes wrote:

Its contemptable journalism as per usual from the Indo, and pathetic scaremongering, there's nothing in the body of his statement that says he's particularly targeting prisoners, he's just including them in the mail drop he'd sent out anyway, which I imagine is drawn up from the census, and isn't directly targeted at prisoners, just the current address of people who can vote in his constitutencies.

Its drawn from the register of electors, not the Census. If it was the Census, they would all be on the list.

ronanp

I'd be much more comfortable with Prisoners participating in the democratic process than mindless fools who vote for the criminals in Fianna Fail. Or champion their right-wing friends for that matter. One person one vote. Even poor people and persons who have commited a criminal offence and been caught, prosecuted, and sentenced.

fly_agaric

may as well reply while I'm browsing...

mackerski wrote:

Citizens of a free country get to exercise a number of rights. One of them, for instance, is being allowed to serve on a jury. This is a right that is also revoked from prisoners.

....

As for voting, that's the right to choose the people who make the laws. Now, we have a cushy enough criminal justice system compared to certain other countries, not that I'd want to be on the wrong side of it myself. Not getting to vote seems a small (and warranted) curtailment of an imprisoned citizen's rights IMHO.

The key thing (supposedly??) about being a citizen in a democracy is being able to vote (or not vote, or spoil your vote!) in elections to choose who governs you.

Taking that away is like making the prisoners "not-citizens" IMO - not just depriving them of a right associated with citizenship.

mackerski

I think you need to distinguish in this debate between rights and opportunities. We all (prisoners included) have the right to vote. If I book a holiday that means I'm out of the country for the election, I have no way to exercise my right. I have a number of other rights too, such as that of liberty.

Criminals who are locked up for their crimes are required to forfeit their right of liberty, one that most of us would prize even more highly than the right to vote. For me, the matter of their right to vote doesn't arise, since their loss of liberty has always denied them the opportunity to exercise it - this seems to be no more unfair than the other curtailments to a prisoner's lifestyle necessitated by his incarceration. I certainly don't see why he should be specially facilitated to vote in ways that the non-criminal holidaymaker would not be.

fly_agaric

mackerski wrote:

I think you need to distinguish in this debate between rights and opportunities. We all (prisoners included) have the right to vote. If I book a holiday that means I'm out of the country for the election, I have no way to exercise my right.

I don't really see the connection. Are the prisons outside the state? I suppose it makes sense if that's the way you look at it [prisoners decided to made themselves unavailable to vote by committing a crime in the same way the holidaymaker (emigrant) made himself unavailable to vote by leaving the state] but again it seems to suggest prisoners are somehow not citizens, or they have put themselves outside the state somehow. They've lost their right to liberty [partly as a punishment for their crimes] and they are also be punished by having a criminal record after the stint in jail but they are still actually in Ireland the whole time and remain citizens of the state.

mackerski wrote:

Criminals who are locked up for their crimes are required to forfeit their right of liberty, one that most of us would prize even more highly than the right to vote.

But that's a basic human right rather than merely part of what it means to be a citizen of a democratic state. One superceeds the other.

mackerski wrote:

For me, the matter of their right to vote doesn't arise, since their loss of liberty has always denied them the opportunity to exercise it - this seems to be no more unfair than the other curtailments to a prisoner's lifestyle necessitated by his incarceration.

mackerski wrote:

I certainly don't see why he should be specially facilitated to vote in ways that the non-criminal holidaymaker would not be.

Come now, they need a lot less to facilitate their franchise than people who have left the state to go on holiday the day of the election!
I do see what you are getting at - taking away the vote as a kind of symbolic punishment* associated with being locked up in prison, but it is what it seems to symbolise (prisoners are no longer citizens...the state is washing its hands of them) which bugs me here.
I suppose my objection is a bit selfish at root rather than being motivated by the thought of poor prisoners being deprived of their right to vote...

*for alot of people, being forced to go out, get their backside down to a polling station, and vote would probably be a punishment...:D...on second thoughts...:(

....sorry for all the edits, was still rearranging my thoughts

johnnyskeleton

mackerski wrote:

I think you need to distinguish in this debate between rights and opportunities. We all (prisoners included) have the right to vote. If I book a holiday that means I'm out of the country for the election, I have no way to exercise my right. I have a number of other rights too, such as that of liberty.

Criminals who are locked up for their crimes are required to forfeit their right of liberty, one that most of us would prize even more highly than the right to vote. For me, the matter of their right to vote doesn't arise, since their loss of liberty has always denied them the opportunity to exercise it - this seems to be no more unfair than the other curtailments to a prisoner's lifestyle necessitated by his incarceration. I certainly don't see why he should be specially facilitated to vote in ways that the non-criminal holidaymaker would not be.

Do you feel the same way about people who are bedridden or housebound?

mackerski

johnnyskeleton wrote:

Do you feel the same way about people who are bedridden or housebound?

No. They generally have little say in their circumstances. Does the state facilitate them in voting? If so, it still feels like the kind of concession that I wouldn't bend over backwards to make to prisoners - but see my next post.

mackerski

fly_agaric wrote:

I don't really see the connection. Are the prisons outside the state? I suppose it makes sense if that's the way you look at it [prisoners decided to made themselves unavailable to vote by committing a crime in the same way the holidaymaker (emigrant) made himself unavailable to vote by leaving the state] but again it seems to suggest prisoners are somehow not citizens, or they have put themselves outside the state somehow.

Not necessarily. Let's change my example, and now my holiday is in Galway. I still can't exercise my vote there (I'm registered in Dublin), and my presence there is sufficiently under my own control that the state owes me no special measures to allow me to exercise my franchise. I'll grant you that prisoners don't choose to be locked away, but miscarriages of justice aside, we have to assume that their circumstances are of their own making.

fly_agaric wrote:

But that's a basic human right rather than merely part of what it means to be a citizen of a democratic state. One superceeds the other.

I'm not sure I've picked you up correctly here. Are you saying that the right to vote is more fundamental than that of liberty? If so, I'm not sure I agree. Certainly, in the worrying circumstance where the right to vote were to disappear, the idealist in me likes to think I'd jeapordise my liberty in the fight to regain it, but to me the two are fairly well on a par, and both are the kinds of right that tend to be enshrined in constitutions.

Victor

mackerski wrote:

No. They generally have little say in their circumstances. Does the state facilitate them in voting? If so, it still feels like the kind of concession that I wouldn't bend over backwards to make to prisoners - but see my next post.

There are two schemes available for people with medical conditions, postal voting and special polling places in the likes of nursing homes.