BMWs

colm_mcm

yup. very easily pleased. I think it's because I have such limited experience of different models of car, it's not as if being in the motor trade means you can drive many different models of car extensively.
I really have no yardstick to compare. maybe if I went on what WhatCar said i'd be better informed.

Captain Slow IRL

JHMEG wrote:

Your average BMW is below average in terms of reliability, is RWD for the sake of it (it doesn't have the power to make use of it), has a scabby spec list, will wear out the syncromesh on 3rd if you leave your hand resting on the gearstick, and is more common-as-muck than a Ford Mondeo.

But... it does have a good turning circle.

My (factual) 2c. Take it or leave it.

I gotta watch where I rest my hand!

They can be wrought with trouble (had a '00 320d in today, with a list of work to be done on it!) but there's feck-all cars that don't give trouble in some way and this to me is outweighed by the experience driving it. (Jap cars do give trouble - don't deny it!)

They are excellantly engineered cars and I'd take a '92 318 over any Avensis, Mondeo or any other one of these disposable pieces of crap on the roads today. (with the exception of a Type-R Honda or an ST/RS Ford!)

Rwd is nicer to drive - no interference through the steering, and the gearbox is easier to remove than on a transverse mounted engine. And I feel a little safer on wet roads, knowing there's not a massive threat of the back stepping out:eek: I don't wanna crash my baby!

I have to change a tie-rod, clean out the throttle body and find an air-leak along with a few other little jobs on my baby............ but I still love her!

Henry Ford III

colm_mcm wrote:

yup. very easily pleased. I think it's because I have such limited experience of different models of car, it's not as if being in the motor trade means you can drive many different models of car extensively.
I really have no yardstick to compare. maybe if I went on what WhatCar said i'd be better informed.

Objectivity, or the lack of it, is the real issue. You sell the product and I'm suggesting once again you simply cannot be impartial as a result.

I couldn't be bothered looking around the web for other comments on that IS220D engine's shortcomings, but there are plenty. My comments on it were quite reasonable.

Finally any reader here know's next to nothing about your experience in the trade, apart from the fact that you continuously talk up anything Toyota related. Whilst this is a compliment to that brand it's hard to take you seriously in any discussion where a Toyota angle exists. Do you think readers should dismiss the motoring presses views completely and simply think "Colm/Toyota" at all times? :rolleyes:

maidhc

Henry Ford III wrote:

Do you think readers should dismiss the motoring presses views completely and simply think "Colm/Toyota" at all times? :rolleyes:

So colm is why Toyota sell so well.... I knew they had a secret weapon!:D

sneakyST

milltown wrote:

You almost made me spray my coffee over my monitor!
Valid points about price aside. My wife has a Focus and the only area it scores over my car is the size of the boot. Beyond that it is, frankly, ridiculous to draw any comparisons. The Ford is as coarse a car as I have driven (and I have had some dogs) and the wall of black and silver airfix grade plastic that is the dash is woeful looking, feeling and sounding.
It may very well last as long as my car or even outlast it but an enjoyable drive it ain't. To such an extent that, although her's is an expensed company car, we choose to notch up the miles on mine for any family trips.

Hi Milltown

What cars are you comparing there a Focus (insert model) and BMW (insert model) I presume

JHMEG

land9 wrote:

Rwd is nicer to drive - no interference through the steering,

Lower powered FWD cars don't suffer from this either, especially if equipped with equal length driveshafts. Of the last 5 cars I've owned only one did suffer but that was in 1st with the pedal to the floor.

land9 wrote:

and the gearbox is easier to remove than on a transverse mounted engine.

That's open to debate!

land9 wrote:

And I feel a little safer on wet roads, knowing there's not a massive threat of the back stepping out:eek: I don't wanna crash my baby!

Contradictory! RWD, with inherent oversteer, is more prone to this than FWD! I was recently in a BMW 535 that did a full 180 degree spin on a wet corner at about 10mph! Scary that it could happen at such low speed, esp as the driver was taking it very handy on account of the conditions.

Seth Brundle

WRT the oversteer, JHMEG is correct that it is much more likely to happen to a RWD car (FWD cars suffer more from understeer) but when it happens it is much easier to catch and control than a FWD car.

milltown

sneakyST wrote:

Hi Milltown

What cars are you comparing there a Focus (insert model) and BMW (insert model) I presume

Her's: Focus 1.6LX saloon
Mine (previous, but my opinion's the same): E46 318i auto

On paper there's little between them, 99hp vs. 116hp is a bit of a gap but 79.3hp/ton vs. 83.1hp/ton shows how close they should be in real life. Indeed if you wring it's neck the Ford could even be a shade quicker but the lack of refinement makes it very hard work. The 318 on the other hand was silky smooth and almost had a "point and squirt" quality, never hard work whether you were cruising or pushing on.

milltown

I read Land9's post to be defending the lower powered BMs and their rear wheel drive. i.e. That he's happy with RWD but glad he doesn't have the power to kick the back out.

Fey!

JHMEG wrote:

Contradictory! RWD, with inherent oversteer, is more prone to this than FWD! I was recently in a BMW 535 that did a full 180 degree spin on a wet corner at about 10mph! Scary that it could happen at such low speed, esp as the driver was taking it very handy on account of the conditions.

Oddly enough, I had that happen me in a Peugeot 405 DIESEL ESTATE (FWD) - road conditions have a massive amount to do with that.

Haven't had any problems like that in the 520.

Reliability wise, the 520 is much better than the peugeot, but no where near the hondas. However, it's a much more pleasant and comfortable drive than any of the others.

sneakyST

milltown wrote:

Her's: Focus 1.6LX saloon
Mine (previous, but my opinion's the same): E46 318i auto

In that comparison I would take the BMW too.
However I wouldnt swap my current focus for any BMW 3 series other than a new M3

JHMEG

kbannon wrote:

WRT the oversteer, JHMEG is correct that it is much more likely to happen to a RWD car (FWD cars suffer more from understeer) but when it happens it is much easier to catch and control than a FWD car.

If the back end breaks loose and the kicks out (not talking about gently drifting out at high speed on the track), the car is at that point out of control and not even Schumacher could get it back...

This scenario is much less lightly with a FWD car as there is no power at the back wheels to kick it out, making them safer for the average driver.

dahamsta

JHMEG wrote:

If the back end breaks loose and the kicks out (not talking about gently drifting out at high speed on the track), the car is at that point out of control and not even Schumacher could get it back...

Only if you lift off. If you keep your foot in, the car can usually be brought back under control. Not always, but a good proportion of the time.

This scenario is much less lightly with a FWD car as there is no power at the back wheels to kick it out, making them safer for the average driver.

If the front end breaks loose in a FWD car, you go straight into the wall. You can lift off, you can put your foot down, you can brake, you can do anything you like, but you're going into the wall.

adam

JHMEG

dahamsta wrote:

Only if you lift off. If you keep your foot in, the car can usually be brought back under control. Not always, but a good proportion of the time.

True, but only if you have the space to do it (or attempt it).

dahamsta wrote:

If the front end breaks loose in a FWD car, you go straight into the wall. You can lift off, you can put your foot down, you can brake, you can do anything you like, but you're going into the wall.

If the front breaks loose on any car it's time for a new pair of underpants...

mike65

FWD/RWD - FWD kills you going forwards, RWD kills you going backwards.

Mike.

peasant

dahamsta wrote:

If the front end breaks loose in a FWD car, you go straight into the wall. You can lift off, you can put your foot down, you can brake, you can do anything you like, but you're going into the wall.

adam

Depends on how fast you're going. Pressing the clutch while steering very gently might get it back again

omega man

Its kind of like why people go straight for the sony product. Its a perceived image and quality thing. As previous posts have said, the low end models are a waste of time if you want the punch to go with the looks. I love nothing better than embarrasing many a bmw driver in my octavia vrs (new model), especially the ones with the silly 'M' badges. In saying that i wouldn't half love a REAL 'M' badged bmw, the M3 in particular.

cancan

If the front end breaks loose in a FWD car, you go straight into the wall. You can lift off, you can put your foot down, you can brake, you can do anything you like, but you're going into the wall.

If the front ends starts to push, releasing throttle will bring the front back in line. Tiz not exactly rocket science. RWD demands much more concentration when things go hairy, and the majority of RWD car drivers will screw up trying to correct a slide.

If the back end steps out in a FWD, the driver did something really stupid.

Now your chances of getting a poverty spec BMW sideways, is minimal to say the least. The thing has so little power as to make the whole FWD/RWD debate a non issue.

People who buy them generally know nothing about cars, and are more concerned about image.

Handbags for men really.

Buy one with a decent engine, and they start to make sence.

colm_mcm

Henry Ford III wrote:

Finally any reader here know's next to nothing about your experience in the trade, apart from the fact that you continuously talk up anything Toyota related. Whilst this is a compliment to that brand it's hard to take you seriously in any discussion where a Toyota angle exists. Do you think readers should dismiss the motoring presses views completely and simply think "Colm/Toyota" at all times? :rolleyes:

I may well be biassed. the same as someone who buys Renaults likes them. I sell Toyotas because I like them and believe in them. not the other way around.

Henry Ford III

colm_mcm wrote:

I may well be biassed. the same as someone who buys Renaults likes them. I sell Toyotas because I like them and believe in them. not the other way around.

Rubbish!

You sell cars to make a living. Nothing wrong with that. Lots of people do it.

I'm suggesting the brand ultimately doesn't matter. If someone offered you big money to sell an inferior marque don't tell us you wouldn't do it on principle

A moralistic motor trader - whatever next? :rolleyes:

p.s. Your acknowledged bias is noted.

colm_mcm

I seriously wouldn't. The only brands I'd sell are Honda or Subaru, but they don't do the volume that Toyota do, so I'll stay where I am thanks!

I take it you realise that you too may be biassed towards certain brands...

Seth Brundle

JHMEG wrote:

If the back end breaks loose and the kicks out (not talking about gently drifting out at high speed on the track), the car is at that point out of control and not even Schumacher could get it back...

Coming around the M50 N roundabout at Dundrum this evening when it was lashing rain, the back of my car stepped out. I could feel it twitching heavily and knew that within seconds it would be out. I easily managed to lower my revs which crushed any intention of the car going arséways.
RWD generally gives you advance warning that it is about to slide, as it did in this case. Incidentally I was not revving hard or going fast or whatever!

colm_mcm

nannying devices usually sort it out anyway, most drivers are ablivious to what's going on at the back.

Seth Brundle

True colm - I should have popinted out that my TC died a few years back and I still have no plans to replace it!

colm_mcm

traction control can be a pain in some cars. always feel safer with it on though! it's the time when you're not concentrating that you'll end up the wrong way round!

Henry Ford III

colm_mcm wrote:

I seriously wouldn't. The only brands I'd sell are Honda or Subaru, but they don't do the volume that Toyota do, so I'll stay where I am thanks!

I take it you realise that you too may be biassed towards certain brands...

Sure. We all have our pet likes and dislikes.

colm_mcm

would you agree that there's a certain amount of pressure on the motoring press to come to the same conclusions as the more established publications rather than appear foolish by criticising or praising certain models over others?

Henry Ford III

I'm not sure tbh.

Most of the time they reach a consensus despite wanting to appear smarter or better informedthan their peers, in a search for wider circulation.

Some of the European Cars of the Year have been jokeshops however.

colm_mcm

definately agree with you about european COTY, although, I must add that most of the cars deserved the title, either because they set new standards, did something differently, or weren't as dire as the rest of the new cars in a particular year!

in the 40 odd years it's been around, there were a few that I thought didn't really deserve the title, Fiat Panda in (2004), and Renault Clio (2006) come to mind. but look at all the times they got it right. S-Max (2007) Focus (1999), Scenic (1997), Bravo/a (1996), Clio (1991) - these cars all in a way moved the goalposts and made their competitors look very dated.

dahamsta

cancan wrote:

If the front ends starts to push, releasing throttle will bring the front back in line.

When the front end on a FWD car breaks loose, you're going into the wall. You can retrieve a RWD break because the solution is to give it power, which has a chance of getting grip. You can't retrieve a FWD break unless the car is going so slow braking will rein it in.

If the back end steps out in a FWD, the driver did something really stupid.

Try going around the closing bends on the way to Kinsale or Blarney with three people in the back and you'll know all about it. Although I guess that could be described as stupid.