Would you have the right to murder your own clone?

I know this is a contriversial subject but I'm not appraoching it too heavily

more of a for instance type of view

But I seen this movie last night (The Prestige)where a guy used a machine to clone himself in order to trick an audience
Brilliant movie and I have some theories on it myself

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055014275

So do you you think you would have the right to murder your own clone?

You saw the movie...

and I'd say no...

aidan_walsh

Well, now I don't have to go see that movie, thanks.

tbh

how about this. All the cells in your body replace themselves completely every seven years or so. This means, at the age of seven, you don't have any of the cells that were present in your body when you were born. So, if you commit murder, and get sent to prison, seven years later, there is not a cell in your body that was there when you did the deed. So should you be released?

Agamemnon

tbh wrote:

how about this. All the cells in your body replace themselves completely every seven years or so. This means, at the age of seven, you don't have any of the cells that were present in your body when you were born. So, if you commit murder, and get sent to prison, seven years later, there is not a cell in your body that was there when you did the deed. So should you be released?

Surely brain cells are different or else memories would only go back seven years?
What if your clone committed suicide and framed you for its murder?
What if you made a "clone" of yourself that was of the opposite sex? If you had sex with it, would that be incest or masturbation?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

SPOILERS, WOMAN, SPOILERS!!!!

HAven't read the rest of your post nor the link for fear of wanting to go see the move (just stopped in time), but....

Moe - Oh well, time to murder my clone
Clone - hang on - I thought YOU were the clone!!
Moe - Aw, Jeez - not this again...

humanji

I honestly can't believe you just ruined that feckin' film! I was going to go see it tonight!!!:mad: :mad: :mad:

chamlis

I am confused and strangely intrigued by your suggestion, agamemnon.

I wouldn't shag me if I was still a male.

I'd make a hot female. I would definately do me. I probably wouldn't have a chance in Hell with myself though

Hail 2 Da Chimp

Thanks for spoiling the movie CSG :mad:

connundrum

tbh wrote:

how about this. All the cells in your body replace themselves completely every seven years or so. This means, at the age of seven, you don't have any of the cells that were present in your body when you were born. So, if you commit murder, and get sent to prison, seven years later, there is not a cell in your body that was there when you did the deed. So should you be released?

The Irish Judicial System explained. Life = +/- 7 years, brilliant! I can stop my searching now.

Yes you should have the right to kill your clone.. and anyone else's clone too for that matter. If your clone cuts me off on the M50, I can guarantee that your clone yould have a cap in his/her a$$ fairly sharpish

Agamemnon

chamlis wrote:

I'd make a hot female. I would definately do me. I probably wouldn't have a chance in Hell with myself though

I'd be a hot chick too. I'd be dug out of me with a shovel. Still don't know if it's incest or masturbation but it would be a night to remember.

tbh

here's another one. These are all from a book called "The Pig That Wants to be eaten".

Let's say you are a doctor, working in a large hospital. One night, you go out after work and get leathered. Your last thought is that you'll go back to the hospital and sleep there instead of trying to go home.

The next morning, you wake up with the usual hangover, and you notice all these tubes coming out of you, tubes which are connected to a guy sleeping in the next bed. You call a nurse over, and she explains that last night when you came in, someone told you that the guy in the next bed would die unless he could be hooked up to someone for nine months, at which point a donor kidney would become available. You volunteered. Now, you are sober. If you disconnect the next guy, he dies. Otherwise, you have to stay connected to him for nine months, then he'll get his op. There is a small chance that the op will kill you. Do you think you should be able to disconnect yourself, seeing as you were drunk when you agreed. You do??? So you believe in abortion do ya?

People who seen it , some mite disagree with me even saying what i just said

I've spoken to 5 people about it this morning and two disagreed with me and explained it in a completly diff way so I did not ruin the movie for people

It's a massive magic trick, the whole film or is it?

anyway back on topic

the movie was only brought up a ref

Sleepy

No CSG, you've ruined the movie for people.

Can a mod add a spoiler warning to the thread title? Really enjoyed the movie myself and would hate to see people have it ruined for them.

Splinter

can a mod please edit the title of this thread. film ruined for me

Ste.phen

For feck's sake, i was going to see that film!

I suppose you're also going to tell us

Darth Vader is Luke's Father

... ?

Dragan

Sleepy wrote:

Can a mod add a spoiler warning to the thread title? Really enjoyed the movie myself and would hate to see people have it ruined for them.

Yeah, i was going to see it on Sunday!!!

Anyway, if i had a clone i would never kill it. Two Dragan's is like some kind of unstoppable force and i imagine one of us would be out killing our enemies while the other is providing steady alibi's.

"It couldn't have been me officer, 500 people saw me win a pizza eating contest that day."

Mrs_Doyle

I saw the Prestige last night, and yes, it is a brilliant movie.

At the point in time of the cloning Jackman became two people, and the consciousness was split in two, so it's actually impossible to define one as "The Clone" and the other as "The Original"
So who is who?
You have as much right to murder your clone as they have to murder you.
As far as I can see, they are as much you, as you.
Same memories, same feelings, same personalities, same everything.

P.S She didn't spoil the entire movie, she just revealed one element of it, there are many more twists and turns to be enjoyed.

DaBreno

Thanks for that missus. While your at it, how does Borat end?

aidan_walsh

People who seen it , some mite disagree with me even saying what i just said

I've spoken to 5 people about it this morning and two disagreed with me and explained it in a completly diff way so I did not ruin the movie for people

Is there anything bar the breeze between those ears?

She didn't spoil the entire movie, she just revealed one element of it, there are many more twists and turns to be enjoyed.

A major plot element was revealed. Thats enough to annoy me. Thanks to yourself for contributing, btw.

Consideration? On the internet? Impossible.

shane86

Hows it ruined? She hasnt said that definitely happens.

I think no. Afaik suicide is technically illegal. So you could e sentenced to life for killing yourself.

This hurts my head to even think about.

aidan_walsh

aidan_walsh wrote:

Consideration? On the internet? Impossible.

Well wtf are you complaining for then?:p

really people not my purpose at all

Mossy Monk

wow, thanks for ****ing up this movie for me :mad: :mad:

monkey tennis

'coolsmileygirl', please go back to school.

Also, you should have no more right to kill your own clone that you would to kill your identical twin. A clone of someone would be a completely different person, despite having the same DNA.

Dragan

monkey tennis wrote:

Also, you should have no more right to kill your own clone that you would to kill your identical twin. A clone of someone would be a completely different person, despite having the same DNA.

Indeed, just ask all the Clones that are around the place.....oh......wait......

ok look i'm sick of this I didn't ruin the movie many many different side's to it
some might even say I'm talking **** and that I was too stupid to understand the movie if what i said was true!:D

I can also say SPOLIER

there's no fcuking clone and there never was and there are many proof's to back it up but in fairness either theory could be true we'll never know unless we speak to mister director

The Machine does not actually duplicate Angier. The movie is entirely realistic. This is the Prestige. The audience leaves the theatre having seen the movie believing it was just magic
The duplicates - Angier first notices the machine duplicating things when the blakc cat is placed in the machine and runs outside. There he finds a dozen hats and an identical cat. These were all placed there to con him into believing the machine worked. The designed (Tesla) had no money and nothing to show for it, so he duped Angier. Something Angier would've realised when he lied about what happend when he went into the machine.

How do you explain the stunt he performs for the 100 shows at the end? He gets his stunt double to come back again and play the part of him before he goes into Tesla's machine, he drops through the trapdoor and into the tank. The tank, however, does not get locked on the nights that Alfred didn't go down there. The assistant survives every night, and is unaware that he will be caged to die on the final night. Angier kills his body double on the final night, and that's who is seen in the autopsy room.

The body seen at the end: This is quite simply a case of Angier stealing his body double's body after the autopsy and placing him in the water cage for whatever reason (I need to see the movie again to make more sense of it all). The only other part i have issues with is the scene when Angier shoots himself. This is however a story he is telling, and could easily be a lie (much like 80% of the movie considering it is lived through a diary designed to mislead the other magician).

It's a strong reason why Cutter could not see the workings behind the stage. Cutter had to make a plea in court that Angier was dead, and if he knew the body was not Angier, he'd be lying in court. Angier repeatedly said he didn't want Cutter to be involved, and that's how he managed to do it.

I'm convinced there is no duplication in the movie. The movie functions merely to trick you into believing the movie's plot is based on magic. It's not... It's an illusion. The movie has successfully tricked audiences into believing that it's magic, something magicians have failed to do for years now. The Prestige of the movie itself, is the realisation that the whole thing is an elaborately scripted illusion.

The last few shots quickly snap back to the hats and the cats. The simplest of tricks pulled on the magician himself... And the mention that you never see the prestige because you're not looking for it. The distraction in the movie is the secondary (and obvious) twist that there are two people playing Alfred.
taken from IMDB as I'm rushing and also it was explained better

connundrum

Is this where the band wagon stops? Must hop on board...

CSG should be burned at the stake for crimes against whingers


If you want to, you could add (DON'T VIEW THIS THREAD IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN 'THE PRESTIGE') - But I guarantee that people would still view it, and would still whinge. It's about as detrimental as telling someone that Borat may or may not expose thriving American racism.

psst i bet you will still look!


If i cloned me I would definitely murder me, what if somebody did something to me and I never knew because it wasn'nt me there it was my clone and if i was truly cloned after a while would I forget which was the original?

DaBreno

Saw the Crying Game last night. Jesus Christ, you would never believe it if I told you.....

Dragan

coolsmileygirl wrote:

If i cloned me I would definitely murder me

I think there are many people who would happily join you? Maybe you could start a business???

coolsmileygirl wrote:

what if somebody did something to me and I never knew because it wasn'nt me there it was my clone

They didn't do it to you, they did it to your clone. It's complicated.

coolsmileygirl wrote:

and if i was truly cloned after a while would I forget which was the original?

Probably, in your case. You could just get a name tag that said "Original" , but they could easily copy that name tag.....your safer to just kill them i think.

connundrum

DaBreno wrote:

Saw the Crying Game last night. Jesus Christ, you would never believe it if I told you.....

They're all ghosts?

Dragan

connundrum wrote:

They're all ghosts?

Nah, your man is dead, the short guy.

DaBreno

They all shot each other! no, wait....
It was a dream, he was already dead..... no.....
The bad guy is the good guys Dad. Yeah, thats it.

Sorry folks. He asked.

aidan_walsh

If i cloned me I would definitely murder me

Right, on topic so.

A clone of you wouldn't be "you". Its not like we're talking perfect digital copies, it's far, far from that. Who you are is born out of your experiences, there have been many, many external influences on you that helped define who you are.

Unless you were to subject your clone to those exact same circumstances, there is no way in heck that your clone would eventually develop to be the same person as you. Even is you did its impossible to say with any certainty that your clone would react to every circumstance the same way you did. Its entirely plausible to suggest that when subjected to the same conditions for all their lives, your clone would likely make a different choice any some stage.

A clone would just a genetic duplicate, susceptable to the same genetic traits as you are. But it wouldn't be "you" by any means.

ixoy

CSG you're an idiot and you DID spoil a major element of the movie and no amount of back-pedalling and "well it's only one viewpoint" crap can take that away. Show some manners and apologise to people. If you were on the Film forum I'd have smacked spoilers around you and given you a verbal warning for pulling that stunt.

As to the point itself, I'd recommend the book "Kil'n People". In it there is the ability to clone yourself, although your clone "dies" after a short period of time. It enables you to send your clone/yourself on various tasks that you're too preoccupied/busy to do yourself. What's interesting is how the consciousness diverges from the original after a certain point, depending on the circumstances they encounter - your environment and actions do shape you. The novel explores all of this in considerable detail - well worth checking out. Eventual answer? No, it's not right to kill your clone because it becomes someone else entirely because it begins to live a different life.

whiskeyman

Hmm, murder my biological replica you say?

What if I was to take him up to the top of a very tall building and take all his clothes off... then push him over the edge.

Would that be making an obscene clone fall?










(I'll get me coat)

Mrs_Doyle

I used to work in the Savoy Cinema, and one day, just after Intermission was release I came in to see it.
The queue was out the door for that movie, literally, and when I had picked up my tickets I went to buy some goodies from the shop - which also contained huge queues...

Anyhow, as I was filling up a bag of sweets from the pic N' mix, my friend comes rushing into the shop. ( A little ginger girl who has worked there, in the cash box, for years. I bet ya Savoy regulars know who I am talking about.)

She had just seen the movie and was all excited, and she said:

Oh My God, you wont believe what happens, Cillian Murphy's mot get with some auld lad, but they get back together in the end, and Dierdre O' Kane is a bleedin mad yoke, who boxes some fella around in the sake, but gets back with her fella, who was having an affair with Cillian Murphys missus, and Colin Farrell is a bad guy and dies in the end!!!!

Everyone in the Queue went absolutely mental, and people were asking the staff "is she serious? has she just ruined the movie for us?".

They were demanding refunds and everything, and giving me the filthiest looks, even though I hadn't opened my mouth.

Anyhow, what she did could be described as actually spoiling the movie, what CSG did was just give you all a little taster!

aidan_walsh

what CSG did was just give you all a little taster!

No excuse. If I want a taster I'll read up on the movie before going to see it. I don't want someone to jump out behind a corner and shove the taster down my throat, thanks. Let's leave it to be my choice, thanks.

could also be this

and says he was a trickster in order to make people wonder, "just for a second".
He had to be the one seeing the wonder on people's faces. See below.

why the flipping heck does he keep killing himself? He'd just need one clone and he's got an absolutely perfect magic act. Why on earth would the clones need to be killed every time?


Because Angier (literally) couldn't live with himself. He would have to share the limelight with another, even if it was another version of Angier.

Angier wanted it all for himself. The Bordens worked as a team, which is why one of them ended up the winner at the end.

The whole film is a lesson in 'play nicely

Jack B. Badd

connundrum wrote:

DON'T VIEW THIS THREAD IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN 'THE PRESTIGE'.

Hell, don't view this thread even if you have seen the movie (which was predictable as fcuk imo)! Surely a spoiler like that warrants a banning :rolleyes: In fact, stupidity like that should warrant a banning...

monkeyfudge

Very annoying.

At least I can exact a small amount of revenge... teehehe...

DaBreno

Mrs_Doyle wrote:

I used to work in the Savoy Cinema, and one day, just after Intermission was release I came in to see it.
The queue was out the door for that movie, literally, and when I had picked up my tickets I went to buy some goodies from the shop - which also contained huge queues...

Anyhow, as I was filling up a bag of sweets from the pic N' mix, my friend comes rushing into the shop. ( A little ginger girl who has worked there, in the cash box, for years. I bet ya Savoy regulars know who I am talking about.)

Yeah! I hated that . Who would have thought Colin Farrell was a Replicant too? Sank the whole film for me.

bullpost

What's the technical term for such a thing - twoicide? ;-)

Ruu_Old

I should have locked you up and thrown away the key OP, and your bloody clone too! Some of ye have no brains, what are ye like! 'I R St00pid' award for you and a few others.

Jack B. Badd

Siteban, please!

Just My View

There was this man who's business was so busy that he just couldn't cope so he had himself cloned. The process wasn't perfect and the clone had a very bad case of Tourette's. The constant outbursts of obscenities started to ruin the business as people didn't realise that they were dealing with a clone. The only solution was to kill him off. So he lured his clone up to the roof of a tall building and pushed him to his death. Naturally the police became involved and the murder case raised the very question this thread is about "Do you have the right to murder your own clone". A smart defence got him off on a technicallity but an even smarter prosecution lawyer got him sentenced to 7 years for making an obscene clone fall.

I'll get me coat.:D

Rb

Way to ruin the film CSG, thanks a lot. Much appreciated.

Oh and its "I saw" or "I have seen".

whiskeyman

Just My View wrote:

but an even smarter prosecution lawyer got him sentenced to 7 years for making an obscene clone fall.

I'll get me coat.:D

Please refer to page 2 where I already used this gag.

Posting a film plot spoiler is one thing, but failing to read the thread properly and then using an already used gag is a serious offence, and should not go unpunished...
Ruu - I expect a heavy sentance to be handed down.

connundrum

whiskeyman wrote:

Please refer to page 2 where I already used this gag.

Posting a film plot spoiler is one thing, but failing to read the thread properly and then using an already used gag is a serious offence, and should not go unpunished...
Ruu - I expect a heavy sentance to be handed down.

Lolz, down with this sort of thing!

Just My View

Ooops, my mistake.:o
In my defence there was so much spoiling of the movie going on I must admit to having only skipped through the thread.

whiskeyman

Just My View wrote:

Ooops, my mistake.:o
In my defence there was so much spoiling of the movie going on I must admit to having only skipped through the thread.

You should have known clone gags are protected under copyright...