Syria - where is the reaction?

nacho libre

Deleted User wrote:

Actually if you read my post again, you'll see I said I doubted that the artillery attack that killed the 18 civilians was a mistake. In fact I do believe that Israeli forces make deliberate attacks on civilians. And I'm not even going to try pass it off the way many posters try to pass off Palestinian attacks on israeli civilianshttp://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=52398920. Its wrong for either side to do.

Allright my mistake for not seeing that. Sorry. I agree with you it's wrong for both sides to target civilians.

sovtek

sovtek wrote:

I haven't seen anyone suggest that it's "all Isreal's fault".

Really? You don't see a trend in the type of responses? Think of your own reponse for example:

However Israel is most surely the instigator and the weakest link on the path to peace. They are the aggressors/occupiers/colonists.

Israel occupied the territories of West Bank and Gaza from Egypt & Jordan respectively. The Palestinian state wasn't even put forward until 1965 with the formation of the PLO, and during the period of the Arab occupation there was no desire to create a Palestinian state. So West Bank & Gaza inhabitants changed occupiers from Arab nations to Israel.

And I think if you'd be a little bit fairer you'd agree that both sides have messed the peace process(s) up considerably.

The only documented cases of "human shields" are on the Israeli side in Jenin.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6162494.stm

"We call upon all the fighters to reject evacuating their houses and we urge our people to rush into the threatened houses and make human shields"
Spokesman for the Popular Resistance Committees.

Wonderful thing, google.

You can't accuse resistance fighters of using human shields when they are fighting on their own territory unless they are deliberately doing so. No one's come up with anything convincing in that regard.

Well, that's convenient. Nice that they have no responsibility for choosing where to attack from, and how that affects the civilians in the area. After all, Israel is rightfully responsible in choosing where it attacks and how that affects the civilians in that area. You don't believe that civilian casualties help the Palestinian cause, and they take this into account? Don't be naive.

I suppose it doesn't matter that Israel also have billions in military aid and an unbridled economy in order to afford uniforms as well as enormous firepower so as not to necessitate the use of guerilla tactics.

necessitate? Hardly. The inhabitants of West Bank & Gaza would likely have gained independence from Israel after a decade or two, if they hadn't turned to violence from the outset. At the beginning of the occupation, Israel treated them in quite the same manner of their previous occupiers, and gave them more religious access. Through peaceful means, and help by the UN, Israel would have likely returned a large partion of the areas of Gaza & West Bank by now, without the need for bloodshed.

Pure speculation I know. But seems more logical that 40 years of violence, especially when you consider that Israel has returned land to nations to achieve peace, and Palestinians have civilian control over a decent bit of territory as it is.

The above mentioned also underscoring that to live in peace/security all Israel needs to do is stop occupying these people's land.

What absolute rubbish. To stop the attacks Israel would need to cease to exist. Afterall, one of the main reasons the Palestinian people are living in Poverty, is because Hamas refuses to remove the clause to destroy Israel from its charter.

Palestinians have not shown that withdrawing from any areas of Palestine would actually decrease the attacks (since they haven't before). So why should withdrawing from all of West Bank/Gaza achieve anything different?

Hobbes

Hobbes wrote:

Beat me too it. I recall these as well and I recall Israels administration saying something along the lines of "We welcome this, but we still have the right to bomb the fuk out of whoever we so choose" and continued to do so.

And the flip side of the coin, is where Israeli forces are withdrawing from agreed area's and Palestinian attacks increase. Or where hamas may declare a peace, but bears no repsonsibility for the attacks by some other militant group.

TBH its like picking sides in the Northern Ireland conflict. Both are as bad as the other and trying to defend the actions of one isn't very workable when neither have the moral highground.

Agreed.

Sesshoumaru

Frederico wrote:

Are you saying that those children who were blown apart are terrorists?
Are you justifying the murdering of civilians?
I don't condone 'collateral' damage when it's caused by terrorism or by state terrorism, and whether the perpetrators are wearing uniforms or not.

Your post seems scarily like something that psycho Rumsfeld would say before they booted him out.

Nope I'm not justifying the murder of civilians. I'm just not naieve enough to think that innocents never get killed in war.
No I'm not saying those children were terrorists, but since there is plenty of Palestinian propaganda featuring children wearing suicide vests.... who knows? I only said that probably most of them were terrorists. I didn't say all of them.

Jimboo_Jones

Jimboo_Jones wrote:

I wonder what your take on Israel using human shields is?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3650791.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1937599.stm

The use of Human shields by any side is wrong and shouldn't occur. You think that because I criticise Palestinian methods, I approve of israeli doing something similiar? Nope. I'm totally against it in any shape or form.

Just as I'm against the guerilla style fighting which places civilians in harm by the very nature of its tactics. Both the attacker and the force responding, place those civilians in danger. And the responsibility rests on both sides for the deaths caused as a result of them. Probably worth mentioning, that I'm also against the use of planes, gunships or artillery in civlian areas.

oscarBravo

Sesshoumaru wrote:

I only said that probably most of them were terrorists.

You also offered absolutely no evidence whatsoever for this rather bizarre "probability".

Condemn Syria?

It seems that this thread has stopped even mentioning Syria...

Sesshoumaru

oscarBravo wrote:

You also offered absolutely no evidence whatsoever for this rather bizarre "probability".

Whats so bizarre? The Palestinians voted in the terrorists. They have to take their share of the responsibility. Whether by taking direct action against the Jews or voting in someone who would, its all the same.

Hobbes

Deleted User wrote:

Condemn Syria?

It seems that this thread has stopped even mentioning Syria...

How about you back up your earlier accusation with something a bit more concrete then "I heard" and we can start from there again.

Hobbes

Deleted User wrote:

Or where hamas may declare a peace, but bears no repsonsibility for the attacks by some other militant group.

How would you expect them to reign them in? It would be like the provisional IRA being held accountable for the Real IRAs attacks.

Part of the problem is when the hit an objective the other side ignores it anyway, or they are given objectives that are just impossible to agree to.

Agreed.

Glad we agree on something.

Hobbes

Hobbes wrote:

How would you expect them to reign them in? It would be like the provisional IRA being held accountable for the Real IRAs attacks.

Part of the problem is when the hit an objective the other side ignores it anyway, or they are given objectives that are just impossible to agree to.

Its interesting that when a journalist is kidnapped in Palestine they're found or released within a couple of days whereas the Palestinian police force does nothing to prevent the attacks on Israel. Strange, since that was one of the reasons it was founded. To reduce the attacks by palestinian influence, rather than Israel always going in with military force.

While I understand that there's many independent fighting groups in Palestine, I also understand that they're all going to be somehow under the influence of the Main paramilitary groups. Whether it be the acquisition of weapons/ammo, training, etc they would have some ties to hamas/PA. And yet we've seen nothing to suggest that Hamas/(and previously the PA) has ever really tried to enforce a ceasefire on these groups. (unless the recent civil war/shizm counts)

Glad we agree on something.

woot. Actually there's quite a few things we agree on. Its just that most of what we disagree on is about Palestinians/Israeli's.

Diogenes

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Whats so bizarre? The Palestinians voted in the terrorists. They have to take their share of the responsibility. Whether by taking direct action against the Jews or voting in someone who would, its all the same.

The Israeli's voted in a war criminal in Sharon who commited the Hebron massacre and provoked the 2nd Infatata? Doesn't, using your rational, make the Israeli population responsible for a share of the violence and sucide bombings they've endured

You can ignore Israeli's actions as much as you want, doesn't mean the rest of us will.

BTW would it kill you to stop refering to Israeli as "The Jews". Plently of Jewish people object to the acts of the Israeli state, and don't want anything to do with them, and plenty of palestinians don't object to the Jewish faith per see, just to the actions of the jewish state.

Frederico

Deleted User wrote:

Ahh, yes, all of which have been used in Palestine during the occupation.. well, except for the first two. I think you're combining Palestine with Lebanon again. Unless, you can show me where they've used Cluster bombs, and White Phosphorus in Palestine? I assume you want to keep the topic on just Palestinian issues?

Read the thread more carefully, the first page.

Constantly? Err, no. They've obliged the UN on a number of occasions in the past. They've also allowed the creation of the PA, the formation of a fully armed palestinian police force, palestinian controlled facilities, a civilian administration for 98% of all Palestinians in the west bank & gaza, and democratic elections which brought forth Hamas into the real limelight. But lets not acknowledge any of that, and focus on everything they've avoided.

Shelling the UN... I can't quite understand this one either. Despite the claims of the troops in the area, that Hezbollah forces were placing them in danger and using their area to launch attacks, Israel definetly shouldn't have shelled that area. Actually I do agree with you. However, I place the blame on the UN. Their observers should have had the military capacity to either puch Hezbollah away from their position, or left the area once they realised what was happening. Being neutral doesn't mean you have to be powerless.

As for Buzzing the UN, its a strange one. Can't see the point of it myself. Especially since the UN have fire orders regarding Israeli forces, but nothing in place for Hezbollah. In fact, they have nothing in place regarding Hezbollah should hezbollah decide to resume the war. And as for disarming/disbanding Hezbollah which was part of the ceasefire agreement which the UN brokered? ha! that disappeared rather quickly once Israel started withdawing.

The list is indeed endless if you look at Israel's actions in a vaccum without ever considering the actions of the Palestinians, the Lebanese, the Syrians, etc. If you ignore 60+ years of violence, and the ineptitude of external nations trying to dabble in the whole area. But hey, its easier to just focus on israel and never acknowledge Palestinian attacks, their tactics, or the failures to commit to their own agreements.

Is Israel ahead of Iraq for defying UN resolutions? I read a few years ago, its a very high number of times, I don't have time to look it up now, but will later. I think if you wanna make a top10 of 'bad' countries who defy the UN then Israel is close to the top.

Gurgle

Frederico wrote:

Is Israel ahead of Iraq for defying UN resolutions?

Technically no, the US veto any resolutions against Israel.

Diogenes

Diogenes wrote:

The Israeli's voted in a war criminal in Sharon who commited the Hebron massacre and provoked the 2nd Infatata? Doesn't, using your rational, make the Israeli population responsible for a share of the violence and sucide bombings they've endured

Of course, the general Israeli population is responsible for the actions of their government & its military in Palestinian areas, or just about anywhere they act. Just the same as the Palestinian people are responsible for the actions of the paramilitary groups they support. Just as Americans are responsible for the actions of Bush, or how we're responsible for the actions of our own government.

You can ignore Israeli's actions as much as you want, doesn't mean the rest of us will.

I wouldn't ask you to ignore Israels actions. It would be nice if we saw the same focus and criticism applied to Palestinian actions though.

Frederico

Frederico wrote:

Is Israel ahead of Iraq for defying UN resolutions? I read a few years ago, its a very high number of times, I don't have time to look it up now, but will later. I think if you wanna make a top10 of 'bad' countries who defy the UN then Israel is close to the top.

Israel's defiance of the UN is well-documented, and repeated in most threads about Israel/Palestine. Don't worry your head to find the numbers, its quite high.

How about in the Lebanon region, Israel has actually complied with more UN resolutions and proposals than the Lebanese & Hezbollah over the last 10 years? But excuses are allowed for Lebanon, but there's no excuse for Israel's defiance.

You look at Israel defying the UN telling them how to run their country(and Palestine), but don't seem to feel any cringing sensation of their lack of action regarding Lebanon/Hezbollah (I'm making an assumption here, because you haven't been criticising them from what I can see).

Its interesting that most people that point out Israel's record with the UN, usually find the UN's stance with Aid & Hamas unacceptable. Afterall its acceptable that Hamas defies the UN, but Israel shouldn't ever be allowed to do so. Right.

Gurgle

Gurgle wrote:

Technically no, the US veto any resolutions against Israel.

Not really. the US has allowed a number of resolutions to be applied to Israel in the past. But they have blocked the majority of resolutions made against israel.

sovtek

Deleted User wrote:

And I'm not even going to try pass it off the way many posters try to pass off Palestinian attacks on israeli civilians. Its wrong for either side to do.

I have yet to see anyone say that Palestinian deliberate attacks on civilians is right.

Sesshoumaru

Diogenes wrote:

The Israeli's voted in a war criminal in Sharon who commited the Hebron massacre and provoked the 2nd Infatata? Doesn't, using your rational, make the Israeli population responsible for a share of the violence and sucide bombings they've endured

You can ignore Israeli's actions as much as you want, doesn't mean the rest of us will.

BTW would it kill you to stop refering to Israeli as "The Jews". Plently of Jewish people object to the acts of the Israeli state, and don't want anything to do with them, and plenty of palestinians don't object to the Jewish faith per see, just to the actions of the jewish state.

As Klaz already pointed out, I've never said we should turn a blind eye to what the Jews get up to in the West Bank and Gaza. It would just be nice if the extreme left would acknowledge the failings of the Palestinians. They are not helpless victims merely flowing in the current as the extreme left make them out to be. You can ignore the actions of the Palestinians if you want to. Doesn't mean the rest of us will.

sovtek

sovtek wrote:

I have yet to see anyone say that Palestinian deliberate attacks on civilians is right.

True enough, but excuses are made.

Israel has modern equipment, so the attacks are justified. Its the only way that Palestinians can fight back. etc. Know what I mean? Its not saying that Palestinians attacking civilians is right, its saying that its acceptable under the circumstances.....

Frederico

Look, is there any debate about Mugabe? no.. he's just the bad guy, its taken for granted.. yet if any leader of a modern democratic country started ACTING like Mugabe there'd be absolute outrage.. right? So how on earth is it a rational argument if someone comes along and defends said leader by pointing out that Mugabe does the same thing??

The same thing with Israel vs Syria/Hezbollah.. by even comparing Israel with Hezbollah you are basically admitting that the Israeli's are a bunch of thugs aswell.


I've also noticed that some posters seem to mention that Israel does some good things.. ??? as a first world democratic country.. its SUPPOSED to do good things.. its like someone saying "look I take care of my kids!".. you're SUPPOSED to take care of your kids (Chris rock)

Bad guys do something bad - Not really news, not much debate

"Good guys" do something bad - Is news, is debate

Frederico

Frederico wrote:

Look, is there any debate about Mugabe? no.. he's just the bad guy, its taken for granted.. yet if any leader of a modern democratic country started ACTING like Mugabe there'd be absolute outrage.. right? So how on earth is it a rational argument if someone comes along and defends said leader by pointing out that Mugabe does the same thing??

The same thing with Israel vs Syria/Hezbollah.. by even comparing Israel with Hezbollah you are basically admitting that the Israeli's are a bunch of thugs aswell.

Not quite, for when I look at israel, I see them actively trying to protect their own people from attacks. Whereas I look at Hezbollah's or Palestinian actions, and I see them placing their people in the most risk.

Its really that simple. All of them claim they're protecting their own people, and its only the IDF that actually seeks to do it.

I've also noticed that some posters seem to mention that Israel does some good things.. ??? as a first world democratic country.. its SUPPOSED to do good things.. its like someone saying "look I take care of my kids!".. you're SUPPOSED to take care of your kids (Chris rock)

Bad guys do something bad - Not really news, not much debate

"Good guys" do something bad - Is news, is debate

After 40 years of this, why do people persist with the belief that israel should be the good guys? Really, this is worth mentioning. Why is Israel held to such a higher standard, when they haven't changed all that much since the 70's. Their responses to Palestinian or Lebanese (Hezbollah) attacks, are no different to how they acted in previous years. Their use of overwhelming force, is no different that what went before. Their use of settlements, or their hardline policies towards negotiations.

More often than not (in my opinion), its the very people that criticise israel, that are the ones to point out Israel being a democracy, and thus somehow should be criticised more. But Palestine had democratic elections, and elected Hamas. Where is the condemnation of them? (And it'll likelyly be some excuse that exempts them from responsibility, or it'll be passed to Israel completely.)

For me, the reason that Israel is pointed out as a democracy so much, is because it gives them more ammo to critcise Israel. If they can place Israel in such a position, similiar to their own country then they can find more aspects wrong about it. (Nevermind that their own country has never been in a similiar situation)

Afterall, its hard to criticise a nation made up of paramilitary goups.. Much easier to pass it off as the rightous fight against oppression, and the fight for freedom, etc. Because Israel, as the Bad guy, lets people off the hook for every time, the Hamas or some other group blows up a car or nighclub full of civilians. Because bad people deserve to be "punished" afterall...

nacho libre

Deleted User wrote:

True enough, but excuses are made.

Israel has modern equipment, so the attacks are justified. Its the only way that Palestinians can fight back. etc. Know what I mean? Its not saying that Palestinians attacking civilians is right, its saying that its acceptable under the circumstances.....

Klaz, are you of the view that Soldiers, of any state, are legitimate targets for any group resisting their occupation which is recognised by international law.
perhaps i was too late with the edit:P)

Ping Chow Chi

Deleted User wrote:

Afterall, its hard to criticise a nation made up of paramilitary goups.. Much easier to pass it off as the rightous fight against oppression, and the fight for freedom, etc. Because Israel, as the Bad guy, lets people off the hook for every time, the Hamas or some other group blows up a car or nighclub full of civilians. Because bad people deserve to be "punished" afterall...

When Hamas (or anyone else indeed) blows up a nightclub or a car then they deserve condemnation, just as Isreal does when then blow up an appartment full of inoccent people. It just happens that Israel appears to be doing more things worthy of condemnation than the terrorists at the moment.

Frederico

Deleted User wrote:

Not quite, for when I look at israel, I see them actively trying to protect their own people from attacks. Whereas I look at Hezbollah's or Palestinian actions, and I see them placing their people in the most risk.

Its really that simple. All of them claim they're protecting their own people, and its only the IDF that actually seeks to do it.

Why on earth then would the Palestinians vote Hamas in? the Palestinians are the people on the ground who are affected by the violence. Why did people support the French resistance when it killed and resulted in the deaths of many more French people than it did the German occupiers?

After 40 years of this, why do people persist with the belief that israel should be the good guys? Really, this is worth mentioning. Why is Israel held to such a higher standard, when they haven't changed all that much since the 70's. Their responses to Palestinian or Lebanese (Hezbollah) attacks, are no different to how they acted in previous years. Their use of overwhelming force, is no different that what went before. Their use of settlements, or their hardline policies towards negotiations.

More often than not (in my opinion), its the very people that criticise israel, that are the ones to point out Israel being a democracy, and thus somehow should be criticised more. But Palestine had democratic elections, and elected Hamas. Where is the condemnation of them? (And it'll likelyly be some excuse that exempts them from responsibility, or it'll be passed to Israel completely.)

For me, the reason that Israel is pointed out as a democracy so much, is because it gives them more ammo to critcise Israel. If they can place Israel in such a position, similiar to their own country then they can find more aspects wrong about it. (Nevermind that their own country has never been in a similiar situation)

Afterall, its hard to criticise a nation made up of paramilitary goups.. Much easier to pass it off as the rightous fight against oppression, and the fight for freedom, etc. Because Israel, as the Bad guy, lets people off the hook for every time, the Hamas or some other group blows up a car or nighclub full of civilians. Because bad people deserve to be "punished" afterall...

Off the hook? If you kill one Israeli, TEN of you will die, regardless of who you are. Oh wait, heres a better one, if you kidnap ONE soldier, 400 of you will die. Israel doesn't care much for world opinion, they have the military and financial backing of the world's only superpower REGARDLESS of what they do, they have nukes, they can get away with just about anything bar bombing orphanages and schools (they just demolish them instead).. how is anyone supposed to feel sorry for them? They can literally attack anyone (Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon) in the area and call it 'defense'.. all the world will ever do is wring its hands.

nacho libre

nacho libre wrote:

Klaz, are you of the view that Soldiers, of any state, are legitimate targets for any group resisting their occupation which is recognised by international law.
perhaps i was too late with the edit:P)

Soldiers? Yes. I believe them to be legitimate targets. It helps to distinguish them because of the uniforms they wear.

Let me ask you then. Do you believe that Hamas and the other paramilitary groups place their own people in danger by dressing as civilians, and using men, women, and children in their attacks on Israel?

Frederico

Deleted User wrote:

Soldiers? Yes. I believe them to be legitimate targets. It helps to distinguish them because of the uniforms they wear.

Let me ask you then. Do you believe that Hamas and the other paramilitary groups place their own people in danger by dressing as civilians, and using men, women, and children in their attacks on Israel?

Why were Hamas democratically elected then?



The Israeli's just killed over 400 Palestinians because of the capture of ONE of their soldiers, but so what.. I mean the German's let two and a half million Russian pow's starve and freeze to death so somehow that makes it okay because its a comparison..

Frederico

Frederico wrote:

Why on earth then would the Palestinians vote Hamas in? the Palestinians are the people on the ground who are affected by the violence.

Then I guess many palestinians were looking for an alternative to the corruption evident with the PA prior to the elections. Or perhaps they looked to Hamas who provided basic facilities in many parts of Palestinian cities. Or they sought a government that would actively seek Israel's destruction. Many Reasons I suppose. But I can't actually see what you're saying refers to what you quoted from me...

Did you actually disagree with what I said. Cause I can't see you address it, considering what you quoted from me. Do you really see the Palestinian groups protecting their own people from Israeli attacks, or do you see their own attacks on Israel placing them in more danger? Do the IDF actively protect the Israeli people, or do they seek to place their own people in the most harm?

If you're going to quote me, at least, address the quote.

Off the hook?

The off the hook comment is in regards to posters, not about palestinians. I figured it was pretty obvious. But I guess not.

If you kill one Israeli, TEN of you will die, regardless of who you are.

Exactly TEN? Really... So sometimes it isn't one or sometimes its more than ten. Or even sometimes no Palestinians will be killed. Nah.. that couldn't right.

Oh wait, heres a better one, if you kidnap ONE soldier, 400 of you will die.

ok, here's an even better couple. How many attacks have Palestinian forces made on israeli's during the period of those 400 being killed? How many of those 400 were armed? How many died in their own little civil war? or killed in attacks made by Palestinian on Israeli's?

You throw out the 400 number, but where are the details. Where is the proof that it was only Israel that killed all of these people? Where is the proof than none of these people were carrying out attacks on Israeli forces? In fact where is the proof at all?

Israel doesn't care much for world opinion, they have the military and financial backing of the world's only superpower REGARDLESS of what they do, they have nukes, they can get away with just about anything bar bombing orphanages and schools (they just demolish them instead).. how is anyone supposed to feel sorry for them? They can literally attack anyone (Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon) in the area and call it 'defense'.. all the world will ever do is wring its hands.

Fine. No argument here. I'm not expecting you to feel sorry for Israel. I don't believe I've ever asked you to. All I've asked is that you at least try to apply the same level of focus, and citicism towards Palestinian (or even Hezbollah's) actions.

Afterall, who is holding Palestinians accountable for their own actions? You? The nations that supply them with weapons? nobody, except perhaps, the recent(ish) UN stance on Aid.

Frederico

Frederico wrote:

Why were Hamas democratically elected then?

The Israeli's just killed over 400 Palestinians because of the capture of ONE of their soldiers, but so what.. I mean the German's let two and a half million Russian pow's starve and freeze to death so somehow that makes it okay because its a comparison..

Frederico, Can you please respond to the actual quotes you grab from my posts. If you want to rant at me, do it. Just post it up on its own. Nothing you posted above actually relates to my post:

Originally Posted by klaz
Soldiers? Yes. I believe them to be legitimate targets. It helps to distinguish them because of the uniforms they wear.

Let me ask you then. Do you believe that Hamas and the other paramilitary groups place their own people in danger by dressing as civilians, and using men, women, and children in their attacks on Israel?

Ping Chow Chi

Ping Chow Chi wrote:

When Hamas (or anyone else indeed) blows up a nightclub or a car then they deserve condemnation, just as Isreal does when then blow up an appartment full of inoccent people. It just happens that Israel appears to be doing more things worthy of condemnation than the terrorists at the moment.

Fair enough. I must admit I can't remember seeing that sort of condemnation of Palestinian actions, but I'm sure its happened.