BER Assesor Training launched today!

Do-more

If anybody has been considering becoming an energy auditor for the new buildings energy rating scheme SEI will today announce details of the first training programmes which will take place during December.

Contact SEI for further details.


From SEI:

BER ASSESSOR TRAINING ALERT

To register as a BER assessor for new dwellings, a person must:

1. Have satisfactorily completed an accredited training course;

2. Sign a BER Assessor code of practice; and

3. Pay a registration fee of €1000 to SEI as the registration body


Details of the learning outcomes and other requirements of training providers have been published in the BER Training Specification for New Dwellings.

There is a need to have a sufficient number of registered BER assessors in active service to meet early market demands in relation to relevant new dwellings from 1 January 2007. To achieve this, an accredited training programme for assessors will be provided in three locations during December 2006. Details will be announced tomorrow (Tuesday 28th November) and registration for courses will be between Wednesday 29th November and Friday 1st December.

As demand is expected to be high, the entry requirements for these courses will include formal verification of prior competences and experience in the energy assessment of buildings and a commitment to active early practice as a BER assessor.

Wider training opportunities will emerge early in 2007 as a number of training providers complete the process of putting accredited courses in place.

saltie

This sounds very interesting and i`ve been following it for a while. Do you think it`d be worth jacking in a good job to take this on?
Do you know what income is expected from this?

Do-more

saltie wrote:

This sounds very interesting and i`ve been following it for a while. Do you think it`d be worth jacking in a good job to take this on?
Do you know what income is expected from this?

I wouldn't go jacking in a good job to do it just yet, but as the auditing for new houses is done off plans and doesn't need a site visit, once you could answer a phone during the day, I can't see why you shouldn't be able to start it up working evenings and weekends till to you see how things pan out.

As to what "early market demand" will be for this service remains to be seen, as I see it early demand will be from the forward thinking builders who are building to a high specification and will want to have their good work recognised with a good label, all the others will be making use of the exemptions which means that the real demand won't be until at least the middle of next year.

Still don't know what's constitutes "prior competences and experience in the energy assessment of buildings" as SEI state that there will be demand for 2000 assesors but I can't see that there are 2000 people in the country with "experiance in the energy assessment of buildings" but perhaps I'm wrong!

serotonin_sam

saltie wrote:

This sounds very interesting and i`ve been following it for a while. Do you think it`d be worth jacking in a good job to take this on?
Do you know what income is expected from this?

Dont give up the day job!
I went to one of the public information events during the summer. I expected 50 people or so. The place was wedged. A show of hands was called to determine what peoples interest in it were. 95% of hands went up for 'wouldbe assessors'!
Furthermore, they dont need anywhere near 2000 assessors. From their point of view, I'm sure its better to put this info out - drum up interest. To them (the SEI), its a case of making sure theres enough bodies to carry out the assessments at a reasonable price.

Do-more

serotonin_sam wrote:

they dont need anywhere near 2000 assessors. From their point of view, I'm sure its better to put this info out - drum up interest. To them (the SEI), its a case of making sure theres enough bodies to carry out the assessments at a reasonable price.

Definitely agree with you that 2000 assessors is way over the top. Even on this years house production figures of approx. 90,000 new houses that would be an average of 45 audits per assessor which @ €100 per audit would give you a gross income of €4500! Not even a good nixer...

When second hand sales and rentals come into the scoop of labelling in two years time the volume of audits @ approx. €300/audit will certainly rise but your overheads in carrying out those audits will also be considerable.

Having considered it, in the short-term, I really can't see many people making a full-time living solely from BER auditing. Some will, but more likely it will be an add-on for Engineers and Energy consultants.

Do-more

Good old Rip-off Ireland! They want €2000 :eek: for the 2.5day training course and then another €1000 registration fee to SEI and then they'll expect assessors to provide audits at a "reasonable cost", I don't think so....

http://www.buildingenergyauditing.com/

saltie

Hey thanks for the replies, I thought I was being a bit blunt with the "jacking in good job" but I see other people have done there maths and that it would not be feasible to do so.
After finding out today that 3 grand (rip off indeed!) is required for this I don`t think I`ll be pursuing it in the near future anyway.
Once again cheers for the responses as I (and an electrician friend) were thinking of this full time but now the realisation kicked in..

Borzoi

saltie wrote:

Once again cheers for the responses as I (and an electrician friend) were thinking of this full time but now the realisation kicked in..

Not to mention the fact that the builders will get their own staff certified, and will not be emplying an independant assessor.

serotonin_sam

saltie wrote:

Once again cheers for the responses as I (and an electrician friend) were thinking of this full time but now the realisation kicked in..

An electrician friend?? why would they want to give up such a great gig like that?

By the way, theres supposed to be over 3000 people on the SEI's mailing list telling them about the 60 places available on the December training courses! :eek:

serotonin_sam

Borzoi wrote:

Not to mention the fact that the builders will get their own staff certified, and will not be emplying an independant assessor.

You sure they can do that? I thought that one of the requirements was that they were 'independent'?

Do-more

serotonin_sam wrote:

You sure they can do that? I thought that one of the requirements was that they were 'independent'?

No, there is no requirement to be "independant" e.g. An architect can audit a building he has designed himself, once he is an accredited assessor. All they have to do is sign a code of conduct! They will of course be liable for spot checks. So I see no reason why a builder cannot have an assessor on their payroll. You could argue that all assessors will be sub-contractors anyway. as they are employed by the builder to certify the house and not by the state to do so. (The state should be doing it IMO.)

ardara1

Any body can complete the DEAP calc that is used to assess a dwelling for CO2 and Kwhr/yr on which your energy label will be based. Every new build from last July was supposed to have a DEAP done to prove compliance - haven't heard of any one doing them.
The energy label - a requirement from next Jan - is SUPPOSED to be completed by an INDEPENENT ACCREDITED person.
There is no accredition body in place and the persons charged with educating the assessors wouldn't know an energy assessment if it jumped up and bit them on their a---.
Don't give up the day job - it'll be as it has alway been with compliance with the regs - very wooly! There'll be tonnes of people doing them for builders - if the result isn't as expected - they get one from someone else that matches their expectations.

Do-more

ardara1 wrote:

The energy label - a requirement from next Jan - is SUPPOSED to be completed by an INDEPENENT ACCREDITED person.

Do you have a link to where it says that assessors should be "Independent"? Of course it should be logical that they would be, but I can find no such referance.

ardara1 wrote:

There'll be tonnes of people doing them for builders - if the result isn't as expected - they get one from someone else that matches their expectations.

This shouldn't be the case as all assessors are supposed to upload details of all audits to a central database and if two labels are produced for the one house then this should show up immediately.

There are of course many pitfalls in havings audits for houses done off plans, for one, the plans may not truly refect the actual specification as built and could show increased levels of insulation, higher spec windows and doors etc. etc. as there will be no site visit required the assessor has no idea of this.

ardara1

Do-more wrote:

Do you have a link to where it says that assessors should be "Independent"? Of course it should be logical that they would be, but I can find no such referance.

Article 10 of the directive is headed - INDEPENDENT EXPERTS!



This shouldn't be the case as all assessors are supposed to upload details of all audits to a central database and if two labels are produced for the one house then this should show up immediately.

I'll give 20 euro to charity if this happens - I bet they'll come up with some way around this - maybe making them accessible on the web or something - they will not have an office with people checking calculations - keep in touch

There are of course many pitfalls in havings audits for houses done off plans, for one, the plans may not truly refect the actual specification as built and could show increased levels of insulation, higher spec windows and doors etc. etc. as there will be no site visit required the assessor has no idea of this.

The money that would be required to actually checking on site will not be paid - it's as it has always been - houses sign off 'SUBSTANTIALLY IN COMPLIANCE WITH PART L' - why not throw a lot of money at building control, get them to check robust detailing and permeability, and that the specification was delivered. Building control in UK MUST receive air permeability test results - and written confirmation of detailing - then the calcs are re-submitted.

It's a paper exercise here.

ardara1

Do-more wrote:

Do you have a link to where it says that assessors should be "Independent"? Of course it should be logical that they would be, but I can find no such referance.



This shouldn't be the case as all assessors are supposed to upload details of all audits to a central database and if two labels are produced for the one house then this should show up immediately.

There are of course many pitfalls in havings audits for houses done off plans, for one, the plans may not truly refect the actual specification as built and could show increased levels of insulation, higher spec windows and doors etc. etc. as there will be no site visit required the assessor has no idea of this.

Article 10 of the directive is headed - INDEPENDENT EXPERTS!


I'll give 20 euro to charity if this happens - I bet they'll come up with some way around this - maybe making them accessible on the web or something - they will not have an office with people checking calculations - keep in touch

Do-more

ardara1 wrote:

Article 10 of the directive is headed - INDEPENDENT EXPERTS!

lol Of course I forgot to look at the directive itself! On the SEI website there is a notable lack of the word "independent"

However I did find this in an old email from SEI:

The issue of ‘independence’ as it relates to BER assessor and queries on whether or not an Architect/Engineer would be in a position to issue a BER label and BER Advisory Report for a building they designed, has been raised by a number of bodies. It is the consensus of the EPBD Working Group that an assessor who has met the specified prequalification requirements, attended an accredited training course, passed any required competency test and has met the necessary quality assurance and other requirements to register as a “certified assessor” will be considered to be an “independent expert” and will be permitted to carry out BERs on any building they have designed for a third party. This consensus is reflected in the revised Action Plan.

As we have pointed out before the question of certification off plans makes the thing a farce in the first place.

serotonin_sam

When they do the 'off the plans' assessments, is the charge per house or is it a one off charge if there were say ..20 of the exact same house type??

ardara1

serotonin_sam wrote:

When they do the 'off the plans' assessments, is the charge per house or is it a one off charge if there were say ..20 of the exact same house type??

Because Solar Gains are accounted for in the DEAP calculation, each indiividual plot should be assessed separately - but building control will probably accept a sample number of calcs (if they ever look at them at all!)

But ever individual premises will have to have an individual energy cert under the directive anyway.

serotonin_sam

ardara1 wrote:

Because Solar Gains are accounted for in the DEAP calculation, each indiividual plot should be assessed separately - but building control will probably accept a sample number of calcs (if they ever look at them at all!)

But ever individual premises will have to have an individual energy cert under the directive anyway.

So are we saying that the Assessor doesnt even have to go near the site.
ie.

Builder phones Assessor -> mails/faxes/emails drawings on. Assessor does calc's and supplies builder with rating cert.
No need to ever see the house(s)?

Do-more

serotonin_sam wrote:

So are we saying that the Assessor doesnt even have to go near the site.
ie.

Builder phones Assessor -> mails/faxes/emails drawings on. Assessor does calc's and supplies builder with rating cert.
No need to ever see the house(s)?

Yep, that's it in a nutshell, could probably be out sourced to India!

ardara1

I hear that the assessor will ask the buider to sign a piece of paper - 'The calc is based on drawing number such'n such - with this specification - is this what was built?' the builder says 'Yep' and hey presto - the cert is accepted as true bill!
Whether there's a come back to the builder rather than the assessor is another matter.

serotonin_sam

ardara1 wrote:

Whether there's a come back to the builder rather than the assessor is another matter.

If thats the case then I would imagine that the assessors liability is confined to the assessment made based on the drawing provided.

Is anyone going ahead with one of these GMIT courses then?

Do-more

serotonin_sam wrote:

Is anyone going ahead with one of these GMIT courses then?

Certainly not at the moment, I have my name on the waiting list with Energy Action and would expect their course fees to be better value than the GMIT rip-off!

The bigger question is whether there is a living to be made as a stand alone Energy Auditor and my take on that at the moment is No!

My feeling is that the Engineers and Architects involved in doing the developments will corner most of the choice work and most of the one-offs as well. Established Energy consultants will mop up the rest.

I think the situation will be a lot more positive for independent assessors when the requirement comes on line for secondhand sales and rentals.

Those with good contacts to EA's and are creative in offering them commission for referals etc., could I expect, build a profitable business.

I don't have a quote for professional indemnity insurance yet but would expect it to be quite considerable, add that to the €2000 course fee and €1000 registration fee and you are looking at decent expenditure before you print your first label.

For me it's time to stay sitting firmly on the fence, a well insulated fence of course;)

serotonin_sam

Do-more wrote:

I don't have a quote for professional indemnity insurance yet but would expect it to be quite considerable, add that to the €2000 course fee and €1000 registration fee and you are looking at decent expenditure before you print your first label.

It makes you wonder about the fee of €100 per assessment that the SEI are
suggesting...

pjbrady1

It appears that the software for this is not even ready yet. There has been no press release (to my knowledge) of software being up and running. So how is this going to be a viable operation nationally in Spring 2006 when demand picks up. The agreed fees were apparently based on what has happened in Netherlands, Germany and Denmark. So better guess than most I suppose. One thing is for sure I can't see this running too smoothly in 2006. Builders not building to the spec of the plan will be the biggest issue. Especially if you put in excellent insulation on your plans, but don't actually include it. So you get a good rating, but your homeowner freezes!!
P.J.

ardara1

pjbrady1 wrote:

It appears that the software for this is not even ready yet. There has been no press release (to my knowledge) of software being up and running. So how is this going to be a viable operation nationally in Spring 2006 when demand picks up. The agreed fees were apparently based on what has happened in Netherlands, Germany and Denmark. So better guess than most I suppose. One thing is for sure I can't see this running too smoothly in 2006. Builders not building to the spec of the plan will be the biggest issue. Especially if you put in excellent insulation on your plans, but don't actually include it. So you get a good rating, but your homeowner freezes!!
P.J.

We need to find somebody that was on the course and get an idea of what went on. From what I've heard the software has major bugs - it's bound to - no opportunity to test it, it's also rumoured that the company that developed it have refused to do any more work on it because the budget has been used up.
I know that the HARP register of boiler efficiencies isn't working yet.
Originally the SEI set a MAX fee of 300 for a calc - but have stepped back from this because they were afraid this would become THE fee - because the things will be pretty much useless, they'll be A LOT cheaper.
BUT - the guys handing the certs over - will they be legally liable for their calcs?

Do-more

Rumour has it that the Minister shall be making an announcement next week, lookin' like he won't be too happy with unSustainable Eegits Ireland!

ardara1

Do-more wrote:

Rumour has it that the Minister shall be making an announcement next week, lookin' like he won't be too happy with unSustainable Eegits Ireland!

The minister will announce that Ireland have now trained the first batch of assessors and will be among the first countries in EU to meet the directive - no mention that because of no inspections on site, no pressure testing, no accredited training course, no home grown trainers, no software that actually works - that it is a PAPER EXERCISE ONLY, but hey they've signed the dotted line - that's all that needs to be done.

serotonin_sam

ardara1 wrote:

From what I've heard the software has major bugs - it's bound to - no opportunity to test it, it's also rumoured that the company that developed it have refused to do any more work on it because the budget has been used up.

ROFL. The company that developed it are laughing. It must be in the public domain as to how much the contract was worth but it has to be a sizeable amount. The 'software' in question - it must have been put together by someone on a year out from college - and they werent studying anything related to IT either.
Its an absolute disgrace. All that had to be done was utilise the SAP or HER software seeing as they had already confirmed that they were following the UK model. The excuse is that because 'they have made changes to the methodology' (in comparison to the uk model) this wasnt possible. The second excuse was that the company responsible for the SAP software didnt tender for the irish software contract (they knew they would be dealing with muppets).
I despair when I think that we cannot implement something like this. What chance have we of implementing more important changes in other sectors ie. health service, etc, etc into infinity.

ardara1 wrote:

I know that the HARP register of boiler efficiencies isn't working yet.
Originally the SEI set a MAX fee of 300 for a calc - but have stepped back from this because they were afraid this would become THE fee - because the things will be pretty much useless, they'll be A LOT cheaper.
BUT - the guys handing the certs over - will they be legally liable for their calcs?

HARP will go live next week (might have something to do with the fact that its being run by the same people that organise SEDBUK for the UK).

ardara1 wrote:

Originally the SEI set a MAX fee of 300 for a calc - but have stepped back from this because they were afraid this would become THE fee - because the things will be pretty much useless, they'll be A LOT cheaper.
BUT - the guys handing the certs over - will they be legally liable for their calcs?

The minister reserves the right to wade in and set the price but he is not doing that from the onset.:D Who will be liable - the poor assessor of course. These people can do nothing else but fudge...oh and eh cover their own skins. Yes, the certs are useless - only positive thing that can be said about it is that its a start but the assessment will have to change radically for it to actually mean anything. It certainly wont influence the market whatsoever.
My feeling is that the building lobby is far too strong here and their influence has bastardised the BER rating into a meaningless piece of paper whereas it could have had a very positive impact.

The minister will be speaking on the subject next week. Any guesses what knowledge he may impart on the whole affair? Its not a trick question - right there under your nose..

ardara1

The methodolgy of calculation is not the problem - the DEAP excel spread sheet available from the SEI web site mirrors SAP in the UK - it will measure a design for KWHrs & CO2 - but it's what happens on site is 100% removed from the calc.

The Gov't, thru SEI is prmoting grants for renewables - but they're being put into poorly put together buildings - you'd save more CO2 with a roll of draft exluder tape and a bit of fibre in the loft - but it doesn't look as effective as a solar panel

serotonin_sam

ardara1 wrote:

but it's what happens on site is 100% removed from the calc.

Not sure if i'm following you here but if I am, the answer is theres nothing happening on site. If the builder was prepared to mail on the plans, theres no reason why the assessor would have to actually see the site at all. A provisional rating could be provided. On completion, the builder would be asked to confirm that there had been no changes from the original info provided (and lets face it, they'd have to sign for this!). If no changes (or otherwise revise assessment accordingly), final assessment can be forwarded to SEI and issued.

ardara1 wrote:

The Gov't, thru SEI is prmoting grants for renewables - but they're being put into poorly put together buildings - you'd save more CO2 with a roll of draft exluder tape and a bit of fibre in the loft - but it doesn't look as effective as a solar panel

TGD Part L requires the use of 10% renewables for water/space heating. However, by its very nature, its a Guidance document. When it comes down to it, there are no real building standards worth talking about in this country.