Irish Rail, gangsters

daymobrew

Big Nelly wrote:

John R wrote:

The rules are clear, only when there is no facility to buy a ticket from the ticket office at the originating station is it allowed to board a train.

The rules are clear???? well clear anyway until the change them tomorrow and then try and fine everyone thats on the train.

kbannon wrote:

Oh right. So how many stations have made this rule clear?

SeanW wrote:

Well, here, the station I use most frequently, Edgeworthstown has a number of ticketing policies associated with it.

This morning at Coolmine station I picked up a leaflet on "Fixed Penalty Payments". It is an 18 item FAQ listing scenarios where you must have a ticket. These are the rules. There is only one scenario where you do not have to have a ticket before boarding.

Fixed Penalty Payments FAQ wrote:

8. What if the ticket office is closed or the ticket vending machines are not working or the station has no ticket office? Ticket vending machines are in operation through out (sic) our network. These machines are monitored and regularly maintained to ensure that they are operational. However in the event that the booking office is closed and the ticket vending machines are not working, then you will not be charged the Fixed Penalty Payment.

I have emailed Irish Rail to put this leaflet online, if it isn't already there.

Big Nelly

daymobrew wrote:

This morning at Coolmine station I picked up a leaflet on "Fixed Penalty Payments". It is an 18 item FAQ listing scenarios where you must have a ticket. These are the rules. There is only one scenario where you do not have to have a ticket before boarding. I have emailed Irish Rail to put this leaflet online, if it isn't already there.

So in other words they have come up with a leaflet because they have prob fined aload of people like myself and have had an influx of complaints. What a shower of to**ers. Now stick out a leaflet to justify scr*wing over the public. God love me but I have to get train in again on Thursday morning, actually the thought of handing them money makes me sick, taxi for me!!!

BostonB

I don't see how you can stand on platform for 5-10mins facing the other platform, therefore facing the only building on either platform, (and its in plain sight) watching people coming through it, (as there always are) crossing over the bridge and not consider that there's a ticket machine there. besides all you have to do is ask someone coming through it.

I'll grant you that the signage is very poor, but you have to know there HAS to be some means of buying a ticket. BTW I've been getting that train for many many years, and I've never seen an inspector on it. So you were really unlucky.

Its a terrible station though, no cover, no facilities and poor access to the Dublin bound side. Always jammed like a tokyo express anytime near peak.

John R

BostonB wrote:

I don't see how you can stand on platform for 5-10mins facing the other platform, therefore facing the only building on either platform, (and its in plain sight) watching people coming through it, (as there always are) crossing over the bridge and not consider that there's a ticket machine there. besides all you have to do is ask someone coming through it.

I'll grant you that the signage is very poor, but you have to know there HAS to be some means of buying a ticket.

Meh. Sorry, BostonB you simply don't undertand how officialdom in the 21st Century operates. Unless something is not blindingly obvious to the most brain-damaged retard then it is simply UNFAIR to apply any responsibility onto the individual in case they may be just that. I mean we don't want to offend a minority now do we?

BostonB wrote:

BTW I've been getting that train for many many years, and I've never seen an inspector on it. So you were really unlucky.

Ooh, revenue protection. Now there's a topic. Mind you I suppose scangers could be considered a minority (just) and we wouldn't want to infringe on their culture of fare-dodging, vansdalism and assaulting tax-payers now would we? After all theirs' is a rich and vibrant culture and Ireland would be a poorer place if we callously wiped it out with evil notions of civic responsibility and respectful behaviour.

BostonB wrote:

Its a terrible station though, no cover, no facilities and poor access to the Dublin bound side. Always jammed like a tokyo express anytime near peak.

Hopefully the Clonsilla-Docklands trains will take some of the crowds, roll on March 12.

Big Nelly

Irish rail are still a joke, I thought this thread was dead, last time before Xmas I was heading in on train because I had Xmas party that nite headed in early for the 7.10 train, little office wasnt open so I went across and got ticket and walked back over waiting for train, on way back bloke landed over to open little box for ticket with a cup of tea:rolleyes: so it started to get busy and he came out of office and started roaring at people on far side in main ticket office not to bother and they can buy ticket at destination!!! explain that!!

andyl222

just read this old thread and was fascinated because only last monday I experienced a similar incident and as a result am expected to pay a 50 euro fine.

I was walking to catch the 12.50 train to connolly at coolmine station. I was perhaps 150 metres from thje level crossing when i noticed the barrier was down, signifying a train was coming into the station. It was 12.38 and i assumed it must have been a maynooth bound train, I kept walking at a relaxed pace considering i felt in no real rush. Then as i reached the level crossing the train arrived from the maynooth direction en route to dublin. It was a good 8 minutes early and at first i thought it may have been a maynooth - connolly direct, but alas it was in fact the train i intended to catch. I had an important meeting with a lecturer so I jumped on the train assuming I could just pay when I reached Connolly. They have a new booth in Connolly station, on platform 4, which to all intents and purposes is signposted and manned like a ticket booth. I walked to the booth and addressed the attendant, asking to buy a return ticket to maynooth. He said he couldnt sell me a ticket and asked to see an i.d then proceeded to take my details and hand me a fine for 50 euro. I tried to explain my situation, with the train being early etc and was met with a blank stare and told i could contest the fine if i wanted.... Has anyone had any si milar experiences in the recent past???

pclancy

Jesus that sucks. I seen that booth last time i was in connolly and presumed it allowed people that had reasons such as yours just pay for whatever ticket they didnt have time to buy on the way in. 50 squid is lousy. Ive often seen people just buy tickets when they get to pearse after the morning coolmine-pearse train.

markf909

I know its a tad dishonest but you can always claim you got on at Broombridge in situations like that.

Stark

John R wrote:

Meh. Sorry, BostonB you simply don't undertand how officialdom in the 21st Century operates. Unless something is not blindingly obvious to the most brain-damaged retard then it is simply UNFAIR to apply any responsibility onto the individual in case they may be just that. I mean we don't want to offend a minority now do we?

I've gotten that train a few times to find the office was closed and I couldn't access the vending machines because they were behind the shutters. There were Irish rail staff standing there so I asked them where I could buy my ticket. They said to get on the train and pay when I got to my destination. Which I did and the inspector at the other end accepted the money without hassle. Guess I must be a braindead retard :rolleyes:

By the way, I never noticed either that there were vending machines on the other side of the tracks. But then again I am a braindead retard seemingly...

BostonB wrote:

I don't see how you can stand on platform for 5-10mins facing the other platform, therefore facing the only building on either platform, (and its in plain sight) watching people coming through it, (as there always are) crossing over the bridge and not consider that there's a ticket machine there. besides all you have to do is ask someone coming through it.

Funnily enough, most people will tell you to pay at your destination...

_Kaiser_

The problem here, as is the usual story with almost EVERYTHING in this country, is that it all depends on who you get on the day!

dodgyme

Well I feel sorry for most of ye. I mean the last time I took a train in to town the office was closed. and the vending machine only would except cc (no cash). if they tried to fine me they would have been quicker raising the titanic. Just paid in connolly. Another time I lost my ticket and explained this in pearse and just paid there.

Ham'nd'egger

Andy, I am looking at the Maynooth timetable and according to it, there is a train leaving at 12:50; I am perplexed as to why it would be early though

andyl222

I'm as confused as you are. I assume if a train driver were to leave maynooth perhaps 3 minutes early and encounter very light commuter traffic (people gettin on and off) he could be about 8 or 9 minutes early by the time it got to coolmine. I'm baffle, and as you can imagine, immensely pissed off about this. I do agree with an above comment, on any other day I would have probably been sold that ticket in connolly, just depends on who ya get i guess....

Pineapple stu

pay the fine cos you were just too lazy to cross the bridge to get a ticket. A lot a people do this in the mornings and delays the trains. Instead of getting to the station on time to by the ticket they rush by the ticket office expecting to pay in connolly/pearse. If you werent asked for a ticket on the train or stop'd at your destination, would you have gone up to the ticket booth and payed your fare?

Murt10

I contacted Joan Burton TD yesterday about this as I was stuck myself. Here's the reply I received back from her today. It seems that Mr Power from Irish Rail is aware of the problem and he is willing to see if there is anything that we can do to alleviate this in the short term.

We'll see. Keep up the pressure. Democracy in action.


Murt



Dear XXXXX

I attach for your information the reply which I received from Michael Power
of Irish Rail. I have asked him to consider installing a ticket machine or to make some effort to provide access for pedestrians.

Yours sincerely, Joan Burton TD.


.....We open the access to the platform on the northern side of the line
during peak morning hours to facilitate commuters. Outside of this peak
time customers have to use the booking office on the southern side.

As you will appreciate we have to ensure that customers purchase a
ticket and if we allow them access to the northern platform we have no
means of carrying out this without deploying additional staff.

I recognise that this causes difficulty for customers who may be pressed
for time and am willing to see if there is anything that we can do to
alleviate this in the short term.

Regards,

Skyhater

Murt10 wrote:

I contacted Joan Burton TD yesterday about this as I was stuck myself. Here's the reply I received back from her today.[/I]

Fair Play to Joan Burton.... I certainly think she is the Best TD in Dublin West. Her website is really good and informative.... She was at Clonsilla Station a couple of weeks ago, talking to both Rail Commuters and People in Cars (waiting for the LC to open)........ She's getting my No.1

andyl222

cymro wrote:

pay the fine cos you were just too lazy to cross the bridge to get a ticket. A lot a people do this in the mornings and delays the trains. Instead of getting to the station on time to by the ticket they rush by the ticket office expecting to pay in connolly/pearse. If you werent asked for a ticket on the train or stop'd at your destination, would you have gone up to the ticket booth and payed your fare?

Yeah I would have paid regardless, and have done in the past. Laziness had nothing to do with this, I was in time to get to the train station and over to the ticket office. The fact that the train was early left me with no other option but to get onto the train without a ticket, or face missing a VERY important appointment. I have always paid at the destination if I've been unable to get a ticket from the station of departure, it was a given that this was an accepted practice due to the multitude of people that i've seen in the past do this....

andyl222

cymro wrote:

pay the fine cos you were just too lazy to cross the bridge to get a ticket. A lot a people do this in the mornings and delays the trains. Instead of getting to the station on time to by the ticket they rush by the ticket office expecting to pay in connolly/pearse. If you werent asked for a ticket on the train or stop'd at your destination, would you have gone up to the ticket booth and payed your fare?

and as a final note in response to this post, if you'll read my initial post outlining the details of what occured that day I did in fact approach the new 'ticket booth' with the intention of buying a ticket, before I even attempted to leave the platform. I hope this satisfies your curiosity with regards to my honest in that particular event.

Pineapple stu

You still should have paid. How do the ticket staff know that you got on were you told them.? You say you would have paid but hundreds don't and you being caught by irish rail clamping down on this does not make them gangsters.

Seth Brundle

cymro wrote:

You still should have paid. How do the ticket staff know that you got on were you told them.

How? He already explained his situation.
If there is nobody at the station of departure how do you manage to pay before getting on?
Closing station ticket offices for whatever reason is quite common - whether IR want to put their head in the sand or not doesn't change that fact.

Pineapple stu

There was a ticket machine in the booking office on the down platform.

Pineapple stu

You dont need an irish rail employee to help you put your money in the slots of the ticket machine, if you do then you propably shouldnt be traveling on your own.

Stark

kbannon wrote:

How? He already explained his situation.

With the power of self righteousness! Your zero downtime one stop ticket shop.

daymobrew

kbannon wrote:

How? He already explained his situation.
If there is nobody at the station of departure how do you manage to pay before getting on?
Closing station ticket offices for whatever reason is quite common - whether IR want to put their head in the sand or not doesn't change that fact.

I don't see where andyl222 says whether the main ticket office at Coolmine was open. He comments about the 'new' one on the southbound platform (the metal container that is only open until 9:30am). Unless he mentions otherwise, we cannot assume that it was closed.

Of course it is strange that a train would arrive so early.

andyl222

cymro wrote:

You dont need an irish rail employee to help you put your money in the slots of the ticket machine, if you do then you propably shouldnt be traveling on your own.

funny you should say that, by law noone has to use those machines if they don't want, so regardless of whether someone needs help using one of them, they can by law get on the train and pay cash at the destination if there wasnt a ticket agent at the station.... however I feel I must reiterate a point, the train was early which in turn meant I couldn't get across the level crossing. Due to the early arrival of the train I was left in the situation whereby either I board the train and pay at my destination, or risk missing an extremely important meeting by trying to get up over the walk over bridge (100 m from the entrance of the platform)across to the station and back again in the 1 minute the train would be stationary at the platform..... I chose the former and as a result was fined.....

andyl222

cymro wrote:

You still should have paid. How do the ticket staff know that you got on were you told them.? You say you would have paid but hundreds don't and you being caught by irish rail clamping down on this does not make them gangsters.

Well if by clamping down you mean that they one week allow you to pay for your journey at the destination one week and then the next they fine you 50 euro for the exact same situation, then yes they are clamping down. Personally I just see it as a somewhat tdishonest way of irish rail making a fortune through misguiding their customers. Belive me, I'm not the only person that still thinks you can pay for your ticket at your destination.....

MarkoP11

The relevant legal instrument SI 109 1984, makes no reference to automated ticket machines. Irish Rail cannot claim they didn't forsee this as when the rules where redrawn in 1984 CIE as it was had ticket vending machines in at least 2 stations in Dublin (Pearse and Sutton) at the time.

4. Where the Board gives notice that a station is unattended or the booking office is closed, or where any person is instructed by an authorised person to board a train at a station without purchasing a ticket at the booking office so as not to delay the departure of the train from the station, any person not in possession of a valid ticket entitling him or her to travel may enter a vehicle at that station for the purpose of travelling but that person must obtain a ticket or other authority from an authorised person on the train as soon as practicable after entering any vehicle or from an authorised person on arrival at the station to which such person is travelling by the train.

Given the ticket vending machines inabilty to sell the full range of tickets they can't enforce a requirement to force you to use them. Put simply if the ticket vending machine can sell the ticket you want use it, if it can't pay onboard or at the destination. This applies to child/student fares and tickets to destinations not listed on the TVM's. Irish Rail claim you must use the machines but that is not matched by a statement in the approved rules which the minister signs not something Irish Rail can do themselves.

Of course this is not to say that when faced with a judge that he or she will rule that the ticket vending machine was there, was serviceable and was able to sell you the ticket you wanted and was thus equivalent to a staffed booking office and convict you. So the advice is to be sensible, exercise some common sense and not to blindly follow the rules to the letter

andyl222

MarkoP11 wrote:

The relevant legal instrument SI 109 1984, makes no reference to automated ticket machines. Irish Rail cannot claim they didn't forsee this as when the rules where redrawn in 1984 CIE as it was had ticket vending machines in at least 2 stations in Dublin (Pearse and Sutton) at the time.



Given the ticket vending machines inabilty to sell the full range of tickets they can't enforce a requirement to force you to use them. Put simply if the ticket vending machine can sell the ticket you want use it, if it can't pay onboard or at the destination. This applies to child/student fares and tickets to destinations not listed on the TVM's. Irish Rail claim you must use the machines but that is not matched by a statement in the approved rules which the minister signs not something Irish Rail can do themselves.

Of course this is not to say that when faced with a judge that he or she will rule that the ticket vending machine was there, was serviceable and was able to sell you the ticket you wanted and was thus equivalent to a staffed booking office and convict you. So the advice is to be sensible, exercise some common sense and not to blindly follow the rules to the letter

I agree mark, common sense should be used. But if a customer is asked to use common sense then surely Irish rail should extend us the same courtesy no?

daymobrew

andyl222 wrote:

I chose the former and as a result was fined.....

Are you going to pay the fine?
For at least a month now, Coolmine station has had a bunch of signs reminding people that they must have tickets before boarding a train. These were added a while after I posted a sign at Coolmine and told the station master about the original incident. I have plans for a more readable timetable to be posted on each platform (readable = broken up by day and by direction, not all-in-one like the timetable outside the permanent ticket office entrance).

Pineapple stu

andyl222 wrote:

funny you should say that, by law noone has to use those machines if they don't want, so regardless of whether someone needs help using one of them, they can by law get on the train and pay cash at the destination if there wasnt a ticket agent at the station.... however I feel I must reiterate a point, the train was early which in turn meant I couldn't get across the level crossing. Due to the early arrival of the train I was left in the situation whereby either I board the train and pay at my destination, or risk missing an extremely important meeting by trying to get up over the walk over bridge (100 m from the entrance of the platform)across to the station and back again in the 1 minute the train would be stationary at the platform..... I chose the former and as a result was fined.....

you should have got there sooner and bought a ticket. Was the train 10-15 mins early? doubt it. You are just blaming irish rail for something that was your fault. Usely people complain that the trains are late not early. PAY UP.:rolleyes:

markpb

cymro wrote:

you should have got there sooner and bought a ticket. Was the train 10-15 mins early? doubt it. You are just blaming irish rail for something that was your fault. Usely people complain that the trains are late not early. PAY UP.:rolleyes:

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation, the guy was 12 minutes early for the train which is loads of time. FFS, he wasn't going for an intercity train, it's a suburban service. Do you show up more than 12 minutes early for city train or bus?

Pineapple stu

yes, so i get plenty of time to buy a ticket before i get on the train.:rolleyes:

Metrobest

daymobrew wrote:

Are you going to pay the fine?
For at least a month now, Coolmine station has had a bunch of signs reminding people that they must have tickets before boarding a train. These were added a while after I posted a sign at Coolmine and told the station master about the original incident. I have plans for a more readable timetable to be posted on each platform (readable = broken up by day and by direction, not all-in-one like the timetable outside the permanent ticket office entrance).

Andy, it seems to me, has been the victim of Irish Rail's make-it-up-as-we-go-along attitude to fare evasion.

I presume Andy was dressed in "student" attire, and not a business suit? As such, he was an easy target, and the inspector was able to fit him into the comfortable stereotype of cheapskate student chancing his arm.

The most shocking thing of all, however, is that Damobrew, who doesn't even work for Irish Rail, has to take care of such basic matters as putting proper signs and timetables on a busy suburban railway station.

I ask you, can you name any other modern EU capital city where passengers have to do the work for the train company? Next thing they'll have Damo driving the trains during his lunch hour!

Shame on you, Irish Rail.

daymobrew

Metrobest wrote:

Next thing they'll have Damo driving the trains during his lunch hour!

MarkoP11 would report that to the Railway Safety Commission

Being an active citizen is just something I do. I am a proud citizen that is simultaneously embarrassed by many things in this country, but I do what I can to help improve where I can.

dodgyme

daymobrew wrote:

I am a proud citizen that is simultaneously embarrassed by many things in this country, but I do what I can to help improve where I can.

I wish there were more like you.

MarkoP11

In both cases highlighted in this thread, both passengers boarded trains at staffed stations with no ticket, basic common sense says if you are at a staffed station you buy a ticket before you travel.

In the second case I have some sympathy on the grounds that the train was early, unlikely it could have been a earlier train delayed, either way IE would be able to verify that internally

The Luas ticket checkers don't take any rubbish they fine you, Irish Rail are doing the same. Fare evasion is a serious problem, the revenue loss is being passed on to fare paying passengers

Not having a ticket is in breech of SI 109 1984, SI 567 2006 and under the Victorian railway regulation act. Both cases where fully legitimate collars by Irish Rail staff depending on the fullness of circumstances the fine may be withdrawn or not you always have the right to appeal. I've come across one incident where IE where wrong, they kept claiming they where right, they where offered the chance to actually fine me when I recreated the journey but I was legal just like the guy who got the abuse

daymobrew has done a great job, he is not the only one there are quite a few people and groups trying to make a difference but come up against a system that refuses to acknowledge its failures

daymobrew

dodgyme wrote:

I wish there were more like you.

So do I. I hope to see you getting involved. You might inspire others to follow. You might make a positive difference. Don't underestimate what you can achieve.

MarkoP11 wrote:

There are quite a few people and groups trying to make a difference but come up against a system that refuses to acknowledge its failures

I fully acknowledge that I am a real small fry in one small part of the country. I'm happy to leave the more frustrating jobs to Platform 11

Rhonda9000

Big Nelly wrote: »

Its 1.95 for a ticket, I can tell you I have no problem handing out 1.95, as my cousin said before to a boucner when he was giving him hastle "I earn more in an hour than you would earn in a week":p

I bet he feels real high and mighty. Its up there with "do you know who I am" or [to bouncers] "you cawnt do that Im a law student". Painful