Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
More Houses to be Built.
Options
-
05-12-2006 1:13am#1Another slap in the face for those that expect Greystones Councillors to heed any of our concerns. To be expected I suppose when they summarily dismissed the views of 6,000 objectors to the apalling Marina plans. If you are not on the electoral register, I would urge you to do so and have your say in May 2007, that is the only place they will isten.
This was of course a done deal quite some time ago.
We asked that these plans be put on hold and were told about the urgent need for the school etc. but all that is for certain is that houses will be built. We were blatantly lied to and told that lands would be given for facilities not that they would have to be bought!:mad:
As expected, today on the E2 rezoning for the Zapi lands behind Charlesland, George Jones proposed that the rezoning motion for the District Shopping Centre and 210 houses etc should stay in the plan and he was supported by Cllr Kathleen Kelleher. Only The Greens, 2 Labour and one Independent opposed.
A Section 47 agreement was entered into with the developers which will be activated if, and when, the retail and residential zoning is signed off. A great deal for the council. :rolleyes: While the developers agreed to reserve sites for a Garda Station, a Community Enterprise Centre and a Recycling Centre, they are not giving these sites to the council for nothing but rather the council will have to buy the sites off the developers. Cllr Jones and Cllr Mitchell talked about the great “community gain” for the people of Charlesland and ignored the objections of Paddy Hooper, the Senior Planner. So the housing and the shopping centre has now been agreed by the council.
Obviously the views of the combined residents of Charlesland which opposed the development meant nothing to Cllrs Jones, Mitchell or Kelleher.0
Comments
-
Was this the plan to build on the current site of the park-n-ride car park?0
-
When I said earlier in another thread that this would happen and an individual from ballymore told me theyd be back by the spring building I was rubbished now all they have to do is put in the permission .I'm putting a deposit on one of the houses as soon as I hear they are going ahead.0
-
80acre site to be rezoned in Greystones......See article on page 2 of todays Irish Times........0
-
The Irish Times wrote:Greystones 80-acre site to be rezoned
Tim O'Brien
Wicklow county councillors yesterday voted to rezone an 80-acre site on the outskirts of Greystones for the construction of a large shopping centre, housing and community facilities.
Adopting the Greystones and Delgany local area plan, councillors amended the 80-acre employment zoning at Charlesland in return for a legal agreement from high-profile property developers Seán Dunne and Seán Mulryan that they would provide a range of community facilities.
The agreement stipulates that the developers offer the Department of Education a five-acre site for a primary school at school site prices; offer another site to the Department of Justice for a new Garda station; provide a recycling centre and develop an 8,000sq m enterprise centre, some 2,800sq m of which would be given free to the local community. The developers also agreed to provide €3 million towards the development of a community centre.
In return, the developers, who are developing about 1,400 new homes and commercial facilities on neighbouring land, would get their site rezoned to allow for an additional 210 houses and a "district level" shopping centre of 20,000sq m.
The deal was strongly supported by a majority of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael councillors, including the mayor of Greystones, Derek Mitchell (FG).
Mr Mitchell said the changes would allow the children of Charlesland to walk to school. He added that the new enterprise centre was needed to provide space for small industries that were being forced from spare rooms and garages in houses because of planning enforcement.
On the shopping centre, Mr Mitchell said: "We need to be able to buy clothes, children's things, washing machines etc in Greystones."
Greystones was also now one of the few large towns in Wicklow without a recycling centre.
Mr Mitchell said the town had grown rapidly in the last six years and facilities were needed.
The deal was approved by 17 votes to four. One of those opposed to the deal, Cllr Deirdre de Burca, said a number of elements of the plan disturbed her. The rezoning had only been first mentioned on September 4th last, she said, giving locals very little time to study the implications. Those who had studied the plan were opposed to the deal, maintaining that Charlesland already had enough new homes, she added
In todays paper0 -
Still don't know the answer to my question though.0
-
Advertisement
-
no as far as i know this is the plan for the land alongside superquinn and the main plan is for the golf course (correct me if im wrong)0
-
matt-dublin wrote:On the shopping centre, Mr Mitchell said: "We need to be able to buy clothes, children's things, washing machines etc in Greystones."
dead right. How could we live without being able to buy washing machines in Greystones. Misery....0 -
it is kind of a random item to pick....
although a burger kind would be nice!0 -
-
FFS so our opinion and reservations count for nothing, plus not only do the developers not have to build the garda station etc, they can sell back the land to the council ??? - cant wait until the next local elections!!!
The children of greystones can walk to school ?0 -
Advertisement
-
As expected, today on the E2 rezoning for the Zapi lands behind Charlesland, George Jones proposed that the rezoning motion for the District Shopping Centre and 210 houses etc should stay in the plan and he was supported by Cllr Kathleen Kelleher. Only The Greens, 2 Labour and one Independent opposed.
A Section 47 agreement was entered into with the developers which will be activated if, and when, the retail and residential zoning is signed off. A great deal for the council. :rolleyes: While the developers agreed to reserve sites for a Garda Station, a Community Enterprise Centre and a Recycling Centre, they are not giving these sites to the council for nothing but rather the council will have to buy the sites off the developers. Cllr Jones and Cllr Mitchell talked about the great “community gain” for the people of Charlesland and ignored the objections of Paddy Hooper, the Senior Planner. So the housing and the shopping centre has now been agreed by the council.
Obviously the views of the combined residents of Charlesland which opposed the development meant nothing to Cllrs Jones, Mitchell or Kelleher.[/QUOTE]
Has anyone seen the actual plans?
Is there plans to build houses or commercial buildings right up to the wall at the creche? (or is it planned for the far side of the road?)0 -
[code][COLOR="Red"]As expected, today on the E2 rezoning for the Zapi lands behind Charlesland, George Jones proposed that the rezoning motion for the District Shopping Centre and 210 houses etc should stay in the plan and he was supported by Cllr Kathleen Kelleher. Only The Greens, 2 Labour and one Independent opposed. A Section 47 agreement was entered into with the developers which will be activated if, and when, the retail and residential zoning is signed off. A great deal for the council. :rolleyes: While the developers agreed to reserve sites for a Garda Station, a Community Enterprise Centre and a Recycling Centre, they are not giving these sites to [B]the council for nothing but rather the council will have to buy the sites off the developers. [/B]Cllr Jones and Cllr Mitchell talked about the great “community gain” for the people of Charlesland and ignored the objections of Paddy Hooper, the Senior Planner. [B]So the housing and the shopping centre has now been agreed by the council[/B]. Obviously the views of the combined residents of Charlesland which opposed the development meant nothing to Cllrs Jones, Mitchell or Kelleher.[/QUOTE][/COLOR]
[/code]
Has anyone seen the actual plans?
Are there plans to build houses or commercial buildings right up to the wall at the creche? (or is it planned for the far side of the road?)0 -
Roll on Election day!!!! I cant wait for these guys to knock on my door ...they havent listened to a word that anbyway has said......ear bashings galore.......Those Brown envelope trees must be pretty empty today....I wonder who will be having a very merry xmas this year...mmm let me think...me thinks the FF and FG Coucillers of Wicklow!!:p0
-
Matt Dub - This is not the golf course lands. Golf course lands rezoning not on agenda during this LAP but it is now owned by developers and is now only a matter of timing.
My understanding is that the land rezoned to residential is the land between the dual carriageway and Charlesland estate. This area I gather is also to have the garda station and recycling centre with the primary school closest to Superquinn.
The new shopping centre is to be located on the far side of the dual carriageway, but not clear whether this is to be above or below Jackie Skellys? Any definitive answers to this??
As for the community gain, I would have to say its not the worst deal ever struck. Whether or not you agree with them, the councillors have been going on about these particular facilities for a number of years & in some cases decades and could claim to have fulfilled their mandate on delivering on these (no reference to harbour devt here) i.e. community centre, primary school in south Greystones, community centre (first mooted in 1995 ish and heavily fundraised by community group till 2002, now joint approach with co. co. swimming pool project)., Garda station and job creation etc.
But shopping centre is in the wrong place. Too far from the main street. Should be at park and ride.
As for accusations raised by Inch, easy option is to take out the man, please provide the evidence or call in to the tribunal otherwise that particular contribution is not helpful. Best advise is to vote for someone else or bravely put your name forward in the next local election. I have no doubt there are about 3,000 floating votes in Charlesland at the next election.0 -
INCH wrote:Roll on Election day!!!! I cant wait for these guys to knock on my door ...they havent listened to a word that anbyway has said
There is no need to wait till polling day. The leaders of both FF and FG are easily contacted by e-mail. Try and get as many people as possible to e-mail them requesting that they not bother sending anyone to canvass your areas as, thanks to the actions of their local councillors, you will not be voting for their candidates.0 -
tomflynn wrote:As for accusations raised by Inch, easy option is to take out the man, please provide the evidence or call in to the tribunal otherwise that particular contribution is not helpful. Best advise is to vote for someone else or bravely put your name forward in the next local election. I have no doubt there are about 3,000 floating votes in Charlesland at the next election.
I would only agree with that up to a point.
Firstly these councillors justify these rezonings on the grounds of "community gain" But the community didnt ask for them! In fact the "community" made submissions opposing them and met these councillors to express their oposition
Secondly if these proposals were part of some grand plan for the benefit of the town as you suggest, why werent they included in the original draft plan prepared by the professional planners? Why were they not put to the community as part of the consultation process? Indeed why did the planners vigourously oppose them when they were put forward as amendments?
So if these councillors are not acting on the wishes of the community, and not acting in accordance with the recomendations of the professional planners then on whose behalf are they acting?
I'm not saying that there are brown envelopes involved but surely an explanation is called for?0 -
Sparks asks for location of shopping complex, I think it is south/west of Seabourne apartments and north/east of Jackie Skelly -- ie between the two on the southern siode of the carriageway.
May or may not be a good idea but its a helluva way to plan, run a county (or not).
Do most people know it was all agreed at the council meeting on Monday on foot of a deal (€ in millions) cooked up between George Jones, the county manager and the developer? Allegedly there will be funds for the (long delayed) public swimming pool (the one sited on Mill Road by the roundabout near the rugby club), a community centre of unknown (at least to me) dimensions and facilities, plus a library extension.
The only way to do anything about this sort of nonesense is to vote these people out. Countdown to June '07 starts here...
Hence the name...0 -
more houses - well thats kind of inevitable since the road was opened, I'd rather have houses than warehouses.
the shopping centre I don't understand though. reports say it will be one third the size of Dundrum - thats still pretty big, too big to be supported by Greystones alone I would've thought. But who else would shop here when Dundrum and the new Bray town centre will be just up the road?
Look at the meridian point - its bang in the centre of the village and the 2 largest stores in it are closing (well ones moving). Maybe a Dunnes Stores or a full size superquinn would do alright in the new shopping centre, but what else would go in there, with so many vacant units already around the town.
And what is this councillor obsession with bloody washing machines! maybe they're feeling dirty...0 -
Tom Flynn says its not the worst deal ever done.
That may be true bvut is it really the point?
Surely we are all cooking up problems if we allow/encourage these sort of deals/relationships between councillors, officials and developers. There are huge potential conflicts of interest here. The council and its official are supposed to act in the best interest of all members of the community; the councillors are suppored to represent their constituenct; developers are supposed to mak profit. Nothing wrong with all that but if you put all three together, cooking up deals o0utside public scrutiny and thm ram them through council meetings without real, thorough public examination... then I think you're heading for Tribunal-land.
There should be a a lot of clear blue water between those whose duty is to act on behalf of the whol community and those whose primary -- only -- onligation is to their own self-interest. This reminds me of what was goin on in the north-east of England in the 1960s -- anyone remember T Dan Smith, Pulson et al?????0 -
[/QUOTE] Sparks asks for location of shopping complex, I think it is south/west of Seabourne apartments and north/east of Jackie Skelly -- ie between the two on the southern siode of the carriageway. [/QUOTE]
Thanks
[/QUOTE]
a community centre of unknown (at least to me) dimensions and facilities, plus a library extension [/QUOTE]
Went through planning process about a year ago for a swimming pool with a community centre consisting (from memory) of a basketball size hall (or 4 badminton courts), meeting rooms, creche, coffee shop, but revised a couple of months ago to facilitate provision of 2nd basketball size hall i.e doubling in size. Assume this due to addition funding available from Sean Dunne (Irish Times says €3m). Was advertised on e-tenders with closing date couple fo months ago. Waiting approval from the Dept of Sport. I have no doubt at all that will receive approval for works to commence and sod to be turned about a week before the next general election.....say around April.0 -
Advertisement
-
The usual Marcais outburtst
Are you a member of the Green Party , the vote yesterday is a real gain for Charleslands and Greystones and it is not any slap in the face!!
IN the vote yesterdat FF/FG/Lab/Ind voted in favour of progess for Greystones.
Will outline gains if required asa I did your committee0 -
Jonege wrote:The usual Marcais outburtst
Are you a member of the Green Party , the vote yesterday is a real gain for Charleslands and Greystones and it is not any slap in the face!!
IN the vote yesterdat FF/FG/Lab/Ind voted in favour of progess for Greystones.
Will outline gains if required asa I did your committee
1. It will be very much obliged if you outline the gains clearly, concisely and without recourse to political mumbo-jumbo.
2. I dont have a particular opinion on this matter but it appears to me that majority of charlesland residents are clearly against it. do you believe in democracy? Or do you think you know better than residents what's their gain and whats their loss? How else could the residents make it known that they don't want this so-called gain? Obviously they are like minors and you know better than them what's good for them?
Bring on the Ayatollahs then!!!!0 -
The history of how we got to the current stage started about 3 years ago when the Town Council invited represntatives of Zapi to explain their plans for the remaining 80 acres of land under their control in Charlesland. By this stage they had received a Bord Pleanala permission for 80 acres of offices/warehouses/commercial on this site. The councillors were also very unhappy about the way the first phase of Charlesland has come about. Bord Pleanala granting permission for close to 1500 housing units on lands zoned for 800 houses and no great gains for Greystones out of the development.
This time around we were not going to sit around and see more development with out any gain for the town.
The first opportunity to consider changes came about under the Local Area Plan process. The town councillors and county councillors sat down with Sean Dunne and Sean Mulryan co owners of the site and discussed a revised Masterplan for the 80 acres and the outline of this plan was put forward at the Council meeting in September and the County Manager was requested to enter into a Section 47 Agreement with the owners to ensure if changes were made to the zoning items promised would be honoured.
The main provision of the adjustment in zoning is as follows
Residential development of 168 family units incorporting a range of dwelling sizes and types with an average floor area up to 220sqm, in addition to 20% Part V Social and Affordable housing to be provided on site. (all these items will be subject to getting planning permission) This was to complete the residential element of Charlesland on the same basis as Eden Gate with the choice of 3,4,&5 bedroom houses.
Provide an Enterprise Centre of 8,000sqm, which shall include a start up facility of c.2800sqm which will be handed over to a Greystones CEB free of charge
A site of 3,000 sqm for a Re cycling Centre to be provided for €1 (one euro ) to Wicklow County Council along with €500,000 in cash if the Government give a capital grant (which they have given for Bray, Arklow, to kit out centre the €500,000 can be used for other community purposes
A district shopping of not more than 20,000sqm (this area was listed in the draft retail guidelines produced by the planners as suitable for district shopping) Why do Wickow people need to travel out of the County for suitable shopping? With the M50 and new Interchange being built on the n11 maybe there will be some reverse traffic!!
Alos on site there would be Retail warehousing, commercial offices, Car showrooms and Industrial Units
A 1 acre site reserved for a Garda Station with the price fixed at €1,000,000 an acre including vat(commercial land in Greystones would be costing in region of €3/€4 million. If the office of Public Works don't buy and build station within 4 years the Council buy the land for community purposes at the fixed price
A site of 2 hectares to be located on north side of GSAR adjacent to existing retail/community area (when the orginal proposal to build Superquin etc came before the council a few years ago Labour Councillors voted against it didnot want shops for 1500 houses!!) Same price for land and transfer if not built.
The proposed Enterprise Centre together with sites for Garda station, Primary School and Recycling Centre shall be provided in the first phase of development.
The owners also made donations to local projects without any conditions so if no shops goes on site the money stays with projects
In summary €3,000.000 will be provided to add to the €1m available to a new state of art Community Centre to be located beside Rugby Club along with Swimming Pool (Local Swimming pool committee receive €250,000 for their local contribution to the €10 m pool project. Both projects have gone out to tender and work should start on both in early 2007 adding more facilities to the current Golden Mile (GAA,Rugby,Tennis etc etc)
€250,000 to 20 acres Sports & Recreational site to finalise kit out.
€100,000 for new Exhibition Centre at the Local Library €2m has already been provided by Government and work will start new week.
Overall I feel a "Good deal" has been done for Greystones and Charlesland.
The proposals on Monday were supported by 18 Cllrs of FF/FG/Lab/Ind opposed by 4
I hope I have explained the proposals in plain language!!0 -
That's farsical. The only major shopping anyone in Wicklow would have to leave the county to do is for major purchases for appliances and such, and those are done so rarely that travel is a minor concern. And with DID off the southern cross, they don't even need to leave the county any longer.Why do Wickow people need to travel out of the County for suitable shopping?
And why exactly is a Garda station going to cost a million euro, but a recycling centre will cost one euro, with a half-million being given to the council to kit it out?A 1 acre site reserved for a Garda Station with the price fixed at €1,000,000 an acre0 -
[QUOTE=Votethemout
The only way to do anything about this sort of nonesense is to vote these people out. Countdown to June '07 starts here...
Hence the name...[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately you seemed confused with General and localelections the local elections are not until the summer of 09 so these councillors will sit for another 2 1/2 years.This development will be nearing completion by then and i'll bet the harbour will be under way anybody hear about planning being lodged for 150 houses in Blacklion near lidl0 -
I don't where you shop but half of population of Wicklow can be found in Dundrum, Liffey Valley and Cornelscourt
The cost of size for re cyclying centre is being given free to the Council. Its normal procedure for Office of Public Works to pay for Garda Sites likewise The Dept of Education buy school sites!0 -
That might be the half who work in Dublin and who can call into Cornelscourt on the way home. Which is what happens when half your towns are dormitory towns.Jonege wrote:I don't where you shop but half of population of Wicklow can be found in Dundrum, Liffey Valley and Cornelscourt
Of course, by dragging people along the M50 into Wicklow, you're acting against their interests by increasing traffic on the road they use, but let's ignore that for a moment and look instead at the financial crisis that Tesco, Supervalue and Lidl and Aldi must now be suffering given that half of Wicklow are leaving the county to avoid shopping with them.
Oh wait, they're not. What a surprise, since Tesco and Supervalue (and now Lidl) are right here in Greystones, there's two large centres in Bray, and you have another in Wicklow town itself.
On the shopping trends bit, by the way, I shop in the Tesco in Greystones for most food needs and things like cookware, etc. Occasionally the supervalue and the nature shop down by the DART station for smaller items Tesco wouldn't have, or for herbs/spices, where the nature shop is the best place to go; and in Woodies and DID on the southern cross for anything I'd need for DIY or small appliances. I've not had to leave Wicklow yet for anything bar the stuff like books that I'd buy on the web because no shop anywhere in the world can afford the same range as amazon for fundamental economic reasons.
And we all know how much money the DoE and DoJ have thrown around in capital spending over the last few years, don't we?The cost of size for re cyclying centre is being given free to the Council. Its normal procedure for Office of Public Works to pay for Garda Sites likewise The Dept of Education buy school sites!
Oh wait, they've spent feck all. You have kids in portacabins with rats in some parts of this country, and Garda stations that the Gardai themselves refuse to work in because they're in such a bad state of disrepair. But somehow, the DoJ will find a million euro for a second station instead of saying "erra, the Greystones station can cover it"? And yes, that's a criticism of the DoJ - but if the DoJ aren't going to spend a million euro on a new station, isn't the pragmatic route of arranging a free site for them a better solution than hoping they'll have a change of heart and get such a load of cash in a budget that they can upgrade all their existing stations and pay for the Reserve and still have the cash for a new station in a small town in wicklow which is still seen as effectively a part of an existing town anyway?
And as for the DoE buying a new site and building a new primary school, the same argument applies, but writ large.0 -
Jonege wrote:
The cost of size for re cyclying centre is being given free to the Council. Its normal procedure for Office of Public Works to pay for Garda Sites likewise The Dept of Education buy school sites!
Thanks for the explanation but I fail to see any major gain in what you said.
If it's NORMAL procedure and if they are BUYING it then what's the big gain?
what's the guarantee that they buy it anyway? What if they don't want it?
What is council going to do with that land then? How much land does council need for community centres? How much money are you going to spend on that?
Or is it that then that will also go back to developers and they'll put more houses up there eventually and give us another great deal?
With all due respect, your response defies any logic Mr Jones, and is not convincing at all.0 -
Sparks wrote:And we all know how much money the DoE and DoJ have thrown around in capital spending over the last few years, don't we?
Oh wait, they've spent feck all. You have kids in portacabins with rats in some parts of this country, and Garda stations that the Gardai themselves refuse to work in because they're in such a bad state of disrepair.
Thats why this is quite a good deal
[/QUOTE=Sparks]
But somehow, the DoJ will find a million euro for a second station instead of saying "erra, the Greystones station can cover it"? And yes, that's a criticism of the DoJ - but if the DoJ aren't going to spend a million euro on a new station, isn't the pragmatic route of arranging a free site for them a better solution than hoping they'll have a change of heart and get such a load of cash in a budget that they can upgrade all their existing stations and pay for the Reserve and still have the cash for a new station in a small town in wicklow which is still seen as effectively a part of an existing town anyway? And as for the DoE buying a new site and building a new primary school, the same argument applies, but writ large.
[/QUOTE]
If a Garda station at Charlesland comes to pass, I am sure the Dept of Justice will sell the ramshackle station by the La Touche Hotel. It is long passed its sell by date, inaccessible to anyone with disabilities and a miserable place. The station site with unobstructed views of the sea, even if only partially sold, is worth a fortune and would easily fund the purchase of a new site and construction of a new Garda barracks, located midway between Kilcoole and Greystones. Greystones station covers both.
As for school site, the various Churchs used to do it all for the state but now the Dept of Educ, while loaded with €€€, have failed to fully take on this duty and unless a site is put it in front their faces. And here the developer is obliged to sell at a subsidised price- even at which they will make a profit.0 -
Advertisement
-
isn't the gain that it could be purchased for 1/3, 1/4 of the commercial value of the siteMuffinsDa wrote:Thanks for the explanation but I fail to see any major gain in what you said.
If it's NORMAL procedure and if they are BUYING it then what's the big gain?
what's the guarantee that they buy it anyway? What if they don't want it?
What is council going to do with that land then? How much land does council need for community centres? How much money are you going to spend on that?
Or is it that then that will also go back to developers and they'll put more houses up there eventually and give us another great deal?
With all due respect, your response defies any logic Mr Jones, and is not convincing at all.0
Advertisement