Time to bring back the death penalty

vesp

Manic Moran wrote:

I presume you mean everyone has access to guns if they're willing to break the law.

There are countless more guns in circulation there than in Ireland. I am not saying that is a good or bad thing, thats the way it is and murders / deaths by shooting go up if people have such easy access to guns, especially when drugs,drink, crime etc are thrown in to the equation.

Orchard Rebel

Manic Moran wrote:

I presume you mean everyone has access to guns if they're willing to break the law. Things get a little more complicated depending on issues like age and criminal record, before you get to the various restrictions on where/when you can be armed.



Sure you can. Just put in another ammendment. Witness the 18th and 23rd Ammendments to the US Constitution.

It's not quite that simple. Protocols 6 and 13 to the European Convention on Human Rights have effectively abolished the death penalty in the EU in perpetuity. Applicants (such as Turkey) must therefore abolish it before they can join.

The only way to reinstate it in Ireland would be to leave the EU or else to repeal the ECHR and start again.The right wing government in Poland recently tried to raise the issue but got nowhere, as (I suspect) you'd need to get every member state to agree - an impossibility.

Firetrap

The death penalty isn't a deterrent in the USA. There'd be no death row if it was. The key is to find a punishment that fits the crime. For many people in Mountjoy, being in prison isn't a deterrent but a thing that crops up in their lives from time to time. Personally, I'd like to see criminals being made to do useful stuff like clean up dilapidated areas, clean graffiti etc. but of course the logistics of that are impossible.

DonJose

The scumbag who shot the postal worker was a Chinese national of no fixed abode, Shu Shen, is Chinese if I am not mistaken. If this crime was commited in China he would have a speed trial and a speedy execution with a bullet to the back of the head. His family would then receive a bill for the price of the bullet used. Instead we the taxpayers are going to pay roughly €100,000 each year to keep this scumbag behind bars.

gandalf

So are you saying that we should implement the death penalty based on race or country of origin?

Villain

I tell you one thing I would love to know, how the hell did a failed Asylum Seeker with no fixed abode get his hands on a gun??

They should hunt down whoever gave/sold it to him and send him/her down for a long time

Manic Moran

gandalf wrote:

So are you saying that we should implement the death penalty based on race or country of origin?

Without going to that extent, there is an argument to the level that we must adjust our law enforcement attitudes to adjust to the attitudes of the immigrant threat: For example, until recently, most Irish crooks didn't really look kindly to the idea of killing a Gard. Recent immigrants from places where the government agencies are 'fair game' and play tougher are not suddenly going to become 'nicer' and give the authorities a break simply because we are used to playing by our rules, and our rules are nicer than theirs.

NTM

DonJose

gandalf wrote:

So are you saying that we should implement the death penalty based on race or country of origin?

I would prefer if the government sent him back to China to let him stand trial for murder and sentence him accordingly, bullet in the back of the head.

He was a failed asylum seeker, in this country 3 years and awaiting an appeal. Once he failed in his asylum application the Government should have put into detention to await the outcome of the appeal. This is of little consoliation for a family who will now have to bury a son over the Christmas period. Another death on the governments hands.

DonJose

irish1 wrote:

I tell you one thing I would love to know, how the hell did a failed Asylum Seeker with no fixed abode get his hands on a gun??

Two words, Triad Gangs. This government is selling the safety of Irish citizens by allow tens of thousands of chinese "students" into the country without even following up to see if they left the country after their visas expired. This is only going to get worse bearing in mind there are over 100,000 of them in this country.

Villain

DonJose wrote:

I would prefer if the government sent him back to China to let him stand trial for murder and sentence him accordingly, bullet in the back of the head.

He was a failed asylum seeker, in this country 3 years and awaiting an appeal. Once he failed in his asylum application the Government should have put into detention to await the outcome of the appeal. This is of little consoliation for a family who will now have to bury a son over the Christmas period. Another death on the governments hands.

Excellent point imo, I agree he should be trialed in his home country.

I also agree that the system that deals with asylum seekers has a lot to answer for. Applications should be dealth with within 3 months and appeals within 1 month. We have the money to supply the resources needed to achieve this the Government just aren't acting.

oscarBravo

DonJose, Shu Shen hasn't been convicted of anything. Tone down the rhetoric, pronto.

Sleipnir

DonJose wrote:

Two words, Triad Gangs. This government is selling the safety of Irish citizens by allow tens of thousands of chinese "students" into the country without even following up to see if they left the country after their visas expired. This is only going to get worse bearing in mind there are over 100,000 of them in this country.

So the thousands of students are actually members of triad gangs? Planning to overthrow the Ming Dynasty in Ireland no doubt?

One lone man shots someone dead and now you're talking about triad gangs taking over the country.

You'll be saying the jews are the reason the country is in a state next.

Sleipnir

irish1 wrote:

Excellent point imo, I agree he should be trialed in his home country.

I also agree that the system that deals with asylum seekers has a lot to answer for. Applications should be dealth with within 3 months and appeals within 1 month. We have the money to supply the resources needed to achieve this the Government just aren't acting.

For a crime he (allegedly) commited here? Why?

This has nothing to do with asylum. How many post offices have been raided by irish people compared to foreigners over the past 5 years?
How many murders have been commited by irish people compared to foreigners in the past 5 years?

oscarBravo

Sleipnir wrote:

Grow up.

Careful now.

oscarBravo

Sleipnir wrote:

For a crime he commited here?

Would an "allegedly" be too much to ask for?

I agree with the sentiment, though. Suspects always stand trial in the country where the crime was committed. Suggesting that someone should be tried elsewhere simply because elsewhere has the death penalty is on moral par with extraordinary rendition.

DonJose

oscarBravo wrote:

DonJose, Shu Shen hasn't been convicted of anything. Tone down the rhetoric, pronto.

Sorry I forgot about the innocent till proven crap. Look he was caught, with literally a smoking gun and the cash from the robbery by a persuing policeman, the garda are not looking for any suspects.

oscarBravo

...or, y'know, don't bother toning it down. Have a week off, on me.

Rebeller

Manic Moran wrote:

we must adjust our law enforcement attitudes to adjust to the attitudes of the immigrant threat

The "immigrant threat". Sounds very like the tired rhetoric of this lot to me:eek:

While I'm not denying the existence of criminal elements amongst our immigrant community I think we have far more to fear from the crooks already ru(i)ning this country (aka soldiers of crookery) than from any outside threat.

Manic Moran wrote:

until recently, most Irish crooks didn't really look kindly to the idea of killing a Gard.

:rolleyes:
This has to be the most outrageous statement I've ever come across in my short time on these forums!

So our "own" nice cosy patriotic criminals would never think about shooting members of the state's security forces?

Now, that statement holds about as much weight as a bag of helium.

No member of the Gardai were killed in the line of duty between 1942 and 1970. Since then I think 14 have lost their lives, all killed by those very same patriotic, decent homegrown criminals you are referring to:mad:

DonJose wrote:

Two words, Triad Gangs. This government is selling the safety of Irish citizens by allow tens of thousands of chinese "students" into the country without even following up to see if they left the country after their visas expired

That' a good point:rolleyes:

Our heavenly green isle of Erin was pure and untouched before these murderous Asian hordes invaded our land. Decent Irish criminals (if there even were any criminals of course) spent their days helping old ladies across the road and trying to keep heroin and other society destroying drugs out of our most impoverished communities.

This paradisical ideal came to an end with the jailing of John "Robin Hood" Gilligan in 2001 and the beginning of the triad intervention in Ireland. What with the decent community protecting Irish gangs now locked up for crimes they didn't commit the way was clear for the evil triads to invade and begin their rampage of murder, rape and social destruction.:D

Andrew 83

I'm completely against the death penalty in all circumstances. No one has the right to end another human life, even if the offender has broken this themselves.

Villain

Sleipnir wrote:

For a crime he (allegedly) commited here? Why?

This has nothing to do with asylum. How many post offices have been raided by irish people compared to foreigners over the past 5 years?
How many murders have been commited by irish people compared to foreigners in the past 5 years?

Because IMO (its just my opinion btw) I don't see why I as a taxpayer should have to pay to keep him in jail for 20 years (if convicted) in this state.

We may not have asylum seekers robbing post offices everyday or even committing crime, but imo the system is still too slow, and if this man's case had been dealth with in a timely manner just maybe the Murdered Post Master might be alive to have xmas dinner on the 25th.

But hey if you feel comfortable paying for this alleged Murdering scumbag to sit in our prison for the next 20 years that your opinion and on here thats worth as much as mine.

Edit* Sorry Mod's for going off topic

Manic Moran

Rebeller wrote:

The "immigrant threat". Sounds very like the tired rhetoric of this lot to me:eek:

That was a rather unfortunate turn of phrase on my part, wasn't it? Perhaps I should have said 'threat brought in as a side-effect of immigration?' I don't mean to say that 'immigration is bad', just that 'our techniques and policies need to adapt to face the new environment'

So our "own" nice cosy patriotic criminals would never think about shooting members of the state's security forces?

I think it's an issue of 'level'. A large portion of the killings of Gardai have been by a very rare level of criminal, those relating to gangs. The common street crook tended not to kill Gards on the basis that killing a Gard was more trouble than it was worth. I can recall a couple of recent robberies, for example, where Gardai have been staring point-blank down a firearm and not been killed. If you have lived in another country for twenty years with the attitude that 'police are fair game to be killed in the ordinary course of criminal business', which is often the case in other countries, you will likely retain that attitude when you move to Ireland and conduct criminal activities there.

No member of the Gardai were killed in the line of duty between 1942 and 1970. Since then I think 14 have lost their lives, all killed by those very same patriotic, decent homegrown criminals you are referring to

It's actually a couple more than that even before you count Gardai killed in on-duty auto accidents, on duty abroad, and that incident with a can of petrol in Tallaght, but the last 'home-grown' common-crook garda-killing incident that I'm aware of was SGT Morrisey in 1985, in another post-office raid. However, these days, when I read on Irish media about a Garda being attacked, there often seems to be a foreign connection without necessarily requiring organised gangs.

NTM

delos

vesp wrote:

If you condone execution in response to the raids carried out on the free state army bases in the 40's, why not condone execution on the killers of Jerry McCabe or the other Irish security forces killed in the 70's, 80's,90's etc eg the Irish soldier shot in the woods in the 80's looking for the IRA kidnap victim.

Where did I say that I condoned the execution of anyone?

bk

I'd just like to debunk some myths for you:

1) Death penalty will cause a drop in murders.

No, in the US, the southern states have by far the highest crime rates (including murders), while the southern states account for 80% of all executions.

On the other hand the northern states have the lowest crime rates (including murders) and yet only make up less then 1% of executions.

Also 84% of criminologists in the US, rejected the notion that the death penalty acts as a deterrent to murder.

Report after report shows that the death penalty is not a deterrent.

2) It is cheaper to execute a person then it is too lock them up.

Maybe it is in China where due diligence and a fair legal systems doesn't exist, but in a western country like the US that has the death penalty, it is actually more expensive to execute a person, then it is to incarcerate them for their entire life. For instance:

In Texas, a death penalty case costs an average of $2.3 million, about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell at the highest security level for 40 years.

Enforcing the death penalty costs Florida $51 million a year above what it would cost to punish all first-degree murderers with life in prison without parole. Based on the 44 executions Florida had carried out since 1976, that amounts to a cost of $24 million for each execution.

Shockingly, in California taxpayers have paid more than $250 million for each of the state’s executions!!!!

Beyond the morals I have a few problems with the death penalty:

1) It is irreversible.

If you execute someone and you later discover their innocence, you can't un-execute them.

For instance in the US, since 1973, 120 people have been released from death row after their innocence was proven (remember they were originally found guilty). In 2003 there were 12 exonerations and 6 in 2004.

2) It is open to abuse

No legal system is perfect and the death penalty is particularly open to subversion for political gains.

I'll remind you of the Guildford Four, who were wrongfully convicted of IRA bombings. They were basically framed by the British police who couldn't catch the real bombers.

Had they been sentenced just 10 years earlier they would have been hanged, but fortunately Britain had abolished the death penalty. So after 15 years their innocence was proven and they were released. Had they been hanged, we might never have known the truth.

3) It tends to involve racism.

See blacks in the US or even some of the comments that have appeared in this thread.

There is simply too much room to make mistakes with this that it just isn't worth it. Certainly I agree that court sentences are too short in Ireland and I've no problem with locking them up until they die. But execution is not the answer.

I must say I'm shocked that so many people here on boards are in favour of this. I can only I assume that these people haven't looked at the facts or thought too deeply about it. I'm glad I live in a country that has banned this archaic practise.

Gurgle

So a failed asylum seeker from a country with a miserable human rights record (which begs the question, why didn't he get asylum), with nowhere to live and no possible way to legally earn money to live on, robbed a post-office without harming anyone and was being chased by an idiot vigilante, fired off one shot which unluckily for everyone involved killed the vigilante.

And this guy is the greatest threat to our civilization?

Hagar

Gurgle wrote:

So a failed asylum seeker from a country with a miserable human rights record (which begs the question, why didn't he get asylum), with nowhere to live and no possible way to legally earn money to live on, robbed a post-office without harming anyone and was being chased by an idiot vigilante, fired off one shot which unluckily for everyone involved killed the vigilante.

And this guy is the greatest threat to our civilization?

There's over 2,000,000,000 of them, should we take them all? And tht's just the Chinese. Where would we put them? They would probably have to stand shoulder to shoulder just to fit on our little island.

He may well be living with friends or relatives or even in State provided accommodation awaiting his appeal.

I don't know about his financial situation but it must have cost a few shekels to travel halfway around the world so he might have more.

"He robbed a post office" - a very bad thing to do
"without harming anyone" - that was jolly nice of him
"chased by an idiot vigilante" - victim refuses to be a victim
"fires off one shot" - ah well only the one then, would he have fired a second shot if the first missed? What did he need a loaded gun for if he had no intent of harming anyone - see above point
"unluckily for for everyone concerned" - an understatement perhaps
"killed the vigilante" - killed his intended victim

I suppose that there are greater threats to our civilization, does this mean we should tolerate the little ones, like cold blooded murder?

Villain

Gurgle wrote:

So a failed asylum seeker from a country with a miserable human rights record (which begs the question, why didn't he get asylum), with nowhere to live and no possible way to legally earn money to live on, robbed a post-office without harming anyone and was being chased by an idiot vigilante, fired off one shot which unluckily for everyone involved killed the vigilante.

And this guy is the greatest threat to our civilization?

Unluckily killed the post master, are you being serious???:rolleyes:

oscarBravo

I can see that "innocent until proven guilty" is a concept that several posters here have a problem with, but - tragically - it's the one that applies in this country. I've done enough warning. Thread closed.

oscarBravo

After a polite and well-reasoned request, I've agreed to re-open this thread.

Let's be absolutely clear about something: anyone who decides that 'innocent until proven guilty' is a luxury that doesn't apply to foreigners, or in any other way comments in a prejudicial manner on an ongoing criminal investigation, will be banned for a month - this is the final warning.

Manic Moran

3) It tends to involve racism

At the risk of going a little off-topic, I live in the Great State of California.

Here is a site that lists all persons executed in this State since the reintroduction of the Death Penalty in 1977.

http://www.cdcr.ca.gov/ReportsResearch/InmatesExecuted.html

Ten white.
One asian.
Two black.

And one not pictured, because Missouri got to kill him first.

Those darned racists, getting white folk executed in disproportionate numbers...

NTM

Gurgle

Hagar wrote:

There's over 2,000,000,000 of them, should we take them all? And tht's just the Chinese. Where would we put them? They would probably have to stand shoulder to shoulder just to fit on our little island.

Count the heads, not the feet.
Theres just over 1,000,000,000 of them.
Why would you suggest taking them all?
Have they all escaped an opressive political regime and applied for asylum in Ireland?

Hagar wrote:

He may well be living with friends or relatives or even in State provided accommodation awaiting his appeal.

I don't know about his financial situation but it must have cost a few shekels to travel halfway around the world so he might have more.

Yes, possibly.
Or he may have been living rough.
My psychic powers are letting me down here.


"He robbed a post office" - a very bad thing to do
- Well yes, I wasn't suggesting he should get a medal

"without harming anyone" - that was jolly nice of him
- Better than some

"chased by an idiot vigilante" - victim refuses to be a victim
- Victim should maybe have considered the presence of a gun?

"fires off one shot" - ah well only the one then, would he have fired a second shot if the first missed? What did he need a loaded gun for if he had no intent of harming anyone - see above point
- Again, not suggesting he should get a medal. 20 years inside maybe

"unluckily for for everyone concerned" - an understatement perhaps
- OK, very very unlucky for everyone concerned

"killed the vigilante" - killed his intended victim
- Killed an employee of his intended robbery victim

I suppose that there are greater threats to our civilization, does this mean we should tolerate the little ones, like cold blooded murder?
- This is armed robbery and murder. Not the most cold-blooded murder in the last fortnight but still murder. Theres a long way between 'tolerating' it and hanging him.

Maybe treat him like every other murderer ?

Or do you agree that because he is Chinese, he should be sent back to China to be punished for murdering someone here?