Somefink abaht SnM and Exams and Studying over the Summer

Stepherunie

Well it didn't seem to be a terrible idea for the last god knows how many years, why is it such a bad idea to have autumn repeats now?

Sangre

Its not a bad idea, its just a *better* idea not to have them.

Stepherunie

In your opinion it is. That doesn't necessarily mean it actually is.

Sangre

Just like your opinion that its a bad one, although you seem pretty set on it.

A college should structure itself to help students rather than work against them.

This system doesn't.

Must bit all the research you've done on it, eh?

humbert

What I don't get is that imo it would have made good sense to have had christmas repeats before SnM because you'd have more time, your summer I'd be free and it's simply easier to motivate yourself to study during term time than over the summer. However it's only now with SnM that they happen and what ever advantage there is having more time etc. is more than counterbalanced by having to deal with the exams you would be doing anyway on top of exams you're carrying from before. This to me leaves only one explanation for the change and that is the convenience for the college, financial and administrative.

By the way I don't really have the foggiest idea about all this SnM stuff, I don't even know if it applies to me. I've a couple of christmas exams which is fine by me.

panda100

humbert wrote:

What I don't get is that imo it would have made good sense to have had christmas repeats before SnM because you'd have more time, your summer I'd be free and it's simply easier to motivate yourself to study during term time than over the summer. H.

As someone who is repeating an exam next week from last May that I should have been allowed sit in August I can honestly say that having no August repeats made me have the most crap summer ever and di not give me a free summer.I had to work extra hours as I knew I would be unable to hold a job down this term due to increasing work load.Usually I would have a month of to go travelling after my August repeats but this summer I had to work and study . I worried about my exam all summer as If I fail it il have to wait another year to go into hospitals. In theory it may seem to give you a free summer but it doesnt.

Students should be allowed a clean slate at the beginning of the year and the autumn repeats were allowing us to do that.
I really cannot see any positive outcome for aboloshing the august repeats,for lecturer or students

gubbie

AngelofFire wrote:

brian doyle claims that persuading the college to go back on their plans is not acheievable, that just shows laziness if not reluctance on their behalf.

I hate that attatude! I mean I'm no historian but if people thought that something was unattainable for most of the things that we've done for Ireland... well we wouldn't be where we are

... ya thats vague but I'm not a historian

And every issue that I've brought to the SU has just seemed to gone ignored

Sangre wrote:

Its called prioritising, if you don't have enough time to juggle it on top of work and college, then don't do it. But if you do, don't complain about repeating.

You're making me speechless. I find your arguments the most blind out of everyones, kinda like Kaptains "Well its like this in commerce so it must be like this everywhere else" kinda feel. Medicine is known as a hard subject for one reason only... ITS HARD. If they have 30 people failing a subject I think you can presume that it is. And these aren't people who just coasted through secondary school to get it, these are people who weren't afraid of working hard for what they want

dajaffa

I'm only going to say this one more time:


Autumn repeats have been abolished so that professors have more time over the summer to do research. That is THE reason.


It is thought that for lecturers to be the best they can be for the students, that they should be quite involved in research. Basically there being 3 exam sessions in the course of a year would make it difficult for staff involved in teaching to do research. I'm not disagreeing with this principle (not a fan of the results though), I want it to be very clear that the abolishment of August repeats is for the benefit of the staff. In no way was this measure ever intended to be of (direct) benefit to students.

I do kinda see where they are coming from, but a better compromise has to be reached with regard to modules (especially in the summer) that are pre-reqs for courses in the next year, especially for those who miss exams due to exceptional circumstances, though it won't be easy to achieve (I was at academic council last Wednesday, and many academics put their own personal needs far ahead of those of th students), it is something vitally important + I for one want to know what the exact situation is for all courses. There will still be "some" August repeats, but I want to know what these are basically (damn sure it'll be very few indeed).

Sangre

gubbie wrote:

I hate that attatude! I mean I'm no historian but if people thought that something was unattainable for most of the things that we've done for Ireland... well we wouldn't be where we are

... ya thats vague but I'm not a historian

And every issue that I've brought to the SU has just seemed to gone ignored


You're making me speechless. I find your arguments the most blind out of everyones, kinda like Kaptains "Well its like this in commerce so it must be like this everywhere else" kinda feel. Medicine is known as a hard subject for one reason only... ITS HARD. If they have 30 people failing a subject I think you can presume that it is. And these aren't people who just coasted through secondary school to get it, these are people who weren't afraid of working hard for what they want

So because you can give an example of one exam with a high failure this should effect the policy of Ireland's largest university?

dajaffa

Sangre wrote:

So because you can give an example of one exam with a high failure this should effect the policy of Ireland's largest university?

Ah here, that is what we call "an example". I'm sure there are many similar cases in many other disciplines.

gubbie

Sangre wrote:

So because you can give an example of one exam with a high failure this should effect the policy of Ireland's largest university?

Its an example. Every course has its failures, sure first Politics I think is the highest failure rate in the college.

And I use medicine as an example because thats the one you seem to have a problem with (what with those digs at Byrno) and the one that you seem to be the most clueless about

Sangre

dajaffa wrote:

Ah here, that is what we call "an example". I'm sure there are many similar cases in many other disciplines.

And I'm sure there isn't....

Hmmm, looks like we've come to a crossroads in this arguement.

Sangre

gubbie wrote:

Its an example. Every course has its failures, sure first Politics I think is the highest failure rate in the college.

Wait, stop the presses! A first year Arts subject has a high failure rate?

gubbie wrote:

And I use medicine as an example because thats the one you seem to have a problem with (what with those digs at Byrno) and the one that you seem to be the most clueless about

He does medicine?

Byrno

Sangre wrote:

So because you can give an example of one exam with a high failure this should effect the policy of Ireland's largest university?

The current situation means there is one policy for the entire College and unlike the previous situation where each School adapted their exam timings for the benefit of their students. So yes, that one example does indicate why the policy should be changed.

Sangre wrote:

Its called prioritising, if you don't have enough time to juggle it on top of work and college, then don't do it. But if you do, don't complain about repeating.

I am not complaining about repeating, I annoyed over the fact that I wasn't able to repeat them in Autumn. The situation now means that instead of having a fair go at the exams in two sets I have to do them all together. For someone in a lower year it could put them into a cycle of having of repeat exams at every sitting.

Garret

I'm for the abolition of august repeats:)

and yeah the research for lecturers is the main reason, and a good one too.

Blush_01

Sangre wrote:

Its called prioritising, if you don't have enough time to juggle it on top of work and college, then don't do it. But if you do, don't complain about repeating.

That's so utterly naive I don't know where to begin.

Sangre

Oh, please do.

Probably something to do with a 'job' and 'the real world' and 'loans'.

If you struggle to hold down college and a job don't join clubs and socs. Simple really.

Stepherunie

Hmm could it possibly be in fact that not everyone in UCD can simply afford not to work during the year?

Could it also possibly be that maybe some people struggle with a subject that they may have taken on newly in college and simply aren't confident enough with the material to pass an exam - particularly with first years or indeed any year. And that the added pressure of doing normal exams as well as a subject you're really not comfortable with - yeah real nice.

Oh and it's not unknown that particular subjects in some courses have high failure rates.


And are you actually serious in your notion that people should not join societies and clubs in college??? Do you honestly think that improves the college in general? Do you really think that this is how it should be? Many people drop out of college due to the sense of isolation they experience because their course is too large to get to know people - clubs and societies keep people in college - do you really think it's better that they just study and don't don't get to know people?


Do you really think that this is college should be about and this is what the largest University in Ireland should stand for?

Nice Sangre. Real Nice.

Sangre

Well since I did work in college I hardly think your first point changes my opinion.

If you're not blessed with the means to not worry financially all the time then you need to accept that college could be a lot less fun for you. You've made the choice between college or work, you'll need to accept the end result. If that means getting a qualification over soc/clubs then you've got to make that sacrifice.


Anyway, can we have less of the dramatics. You've failed an exam, you have to repeat. You may not do as well as a result...how dare there be a downside to failing!!

Stepherunie

So you're saying that if it's not financially possible for you to go to college without working you should give up the opportunity to make friends and get to know people outside of the lecture theatre?

That appears a very inclusive attitude towards everyone no matter who they are or how much money they have.

Sangre

If it means the difference between passing and failing your course, then yes.

mloc

Sangre wrote:

If you're not blessed with the means to not worry financially all the time then you need to accept that college could be a lot less fun for you. You've made the choice between college or work, you'll need to accept the end result. If that means getting a qualification over soc/clubs then you've got to make that sacrifice.

Have to agree here. It's an unfortunate reality, but a reality nonetheless. Not everyone is going to be on the same playing field when it comes to money and college, and therefore, for some people sacrifices will have to be made on some level.

Just thank your own choice of deity that you don't have to pay full fees.

On another point, dajaffa is correct in his statement that the lack of autumn exams is primarily due to providing lecturers etc with more research time. It goes deeper than this however.

The Brady administration, in thier efforts to improve UCD's world rankings as a university, is encouraging a greater ratio of research vs undergraduate tuition. This is a neccessary step if our world rankings are to improve, as they are measured almost exclusively on publication output. For this reason many lecturers I know personally have told me that there is a general message out there to focus on research and put tuition in second place. Basically, postgraduate research is now the focal point of UCD, as opposed to undergraduate tuition.

I guess it's a matter of opinion if this a good thing or not. It may not be a good thing for undergraduates in the short to medium term, in the long term however a degree from a better recognised college looks better on paper. This shift towards research will no doubt intensify in the future.

hullaballoo

I think Sangre's point is that we're all given lots in life, and we just have to take them.

I mean, this is university. You get an honours degree at the end of it. It's not panel-beating in Tallaght IT.

If you struggle through because of extenuating circumstances, so be it. No one is judging you. Personally, I work when I can because I like the dosh, but my folks have prioritised my education - they have the means to. I'm lucky.

Some people aren't so lucky, and may find college tough. As Sangre said, they made the choice to make the break for themselves, and they have to continue forging through despite their disadvantage.

It's real life, not a playground.

As an aside, some courses that are more demanding (such as medicine and engineering &c) have a better pay-off at the end.

Easy courses like law and arts don't have such a great pay-off because you have to do a load of post-grads and work hard then.

Stepherunie

Sangre wrote:

If it means the difference between passing and failing your course, then yes.

Yes and if it is the difference between a person staying in college or dropping out due to the sense of isolation they experience I think I'd try, like many people do, to strike a balance.

And mloc I completely agree one of our best lecturers has vastly reduced his teaching hours this year because he is head of research for our course and even though he's being doing this job for years this year is the first year that he's had to reduce his teaching by so much.

In the long term I think whilst UCD will move up in the rankings those who are currently studying in UCD will suffer from a reduced amount of quality teaching and a general change shift towards valuing postgraduate research over actually inspiring future researchers with great undergraduate courses.

Gordon

Stepherunie wrote:

In the long term I think whilst UCD will move up in the rankings those who are currently studying in UCD will suffer from a reduced amount of quality teaching and a general change shift towards valuing postgraduate research over actually inspiring future researchers with great undergraduate courses.

Maybe the College is prioritising their priorities for the short term in order to gain a greater long term benefit. Which would presumably mean more highly qualified tutors wanting to teach/lecture in the College. Which would then benefit the undergraduate courses also.

I didn't know Universities were judged/ranked on the amount of publications they produce. I take it that 'publications' means anything published; be they undergrad or lecturer right?

Stepherunie

hullaballoo wrote:

Easy courses like law and arts don't have such a great pay-off because you have to do a load of post-grads and work hard then.

Just a few examples:

Physiotherapy: High workload - large clinical component all unpaid. Very few jobs available in Ireland currently due to an employment embargo in the public sector - typically for every basic physiotherapy job available in Laois (I know the head so have definite numbers) they have about 20 applications from newly qualified physiotherapists.

Radiography: Yes guaranteed job when you qualify more than likely. However to get a pay off and to go beyond a basic grade you often have to wait up to 5 years to get into a specialty and that's before you even do your training in that area.

Medicine: Graduating from college is only the beginning of your medical education. On top of working full time you can expect upwards of 10 years further study to reach consultant grade.

Everyone has to study to get a good pay off in the end.

Sangre

Eh, that was his point.

mloc

Gordon wrote:

I take it that 'publications' means anything published; be they undergrad or lecturer right?

AFAIK publications means anything published in specific well regarded journals etc. I'm an undergrad, and I know of one or two people in my year who's final year research projects will most likely be published.

panda100

Stepherunie wrote:

So you're saying that if it's not financially possible for you to go to college without working you should give up the opportunity to make friends and get to know people outside of the lecture theatre?

That appears a very inclusive attitude towards everyone no matter who they are or how much money they have.

Of course sangre is right!Sure all the best doctors are those who lock themselves in the library for six years and have no person to person interaction!This is setting themselves up for failure in the 'real world'.

August repeats do not prevent a lecturer from doing reserch,In fact it alleviates and spreads out their workload immensly.As it means they only have30 odd scripts to mark in August instead of on top of the huge number of other exams they will have to mark at christmas.

Did the su education officer not know this was going to happen last year?Why were we not informed earlier.I wish she'd concentarted on our education rather than crusading for abortion :rolleyes:

hullaballoo

I don't remember Sangre ever saying that the only way to become a good doctor is to lock yourself in the library for six years and have no personal interaction, so I think he'll thank you not to put words in his mouth.

This whole thread is getting on my nerves now because it's all based on a hypothetical dream world where people actually spend their non-socialising time in the library. No one who does the number of hours study that are specified by the university for each course could fail.

And if you did do the number of specified hours, you could still find time to go out as well - maybe even to be involved in societies. The real situation is that people don't manage their time properly, and prioritise society work ahead of study, because study is a pain in the rump.

Now, if people are going to get in a hump with me just because Sangre's coming up trumps in my mind on this, you don't want no drama. No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama
So don't pull on my hand boy,
You ain't my man, boy,
I'm just tryn'a dance boy,
And move my hump.