Pinochet is dead

El Stuntman

The Corinthian wrote:

Try Googling for it, you shouldn't have to go far to find accounts of Sandinista atrocities. It's interesting though you're only educated to the atrocities of one side of that conflict.

A dictator sent troops to defend democracy? Are you trying to be serious?

Hi Corinthian,

the above post is symptomatic of a very serious ocular disorder which afflicts many trendy liberals in this country; they can only see the 'crimes' committed by either their own country/government or their own countries natural allies.

to whit:

Palestinian suicide bombers slaughter innocent civilians - deafening silence from trendy liberals
Israeli Army kills people in retaliation - huge diatribe against Israel/Bush etc etc from aforementioned trendy liberals

it's boring

mike65

Its lazy more than boring. You'll rarely get a sociatist to admit that left wing authoritarian governments are anything other than an unfortunate neccessity bought on by right-wing imperialist oppression so requiring a strong socialist to protect the poeple.

Mike.

sovtek

The Corinthian wrote:

Try Googling for it, you shouldn't have to go far to find accounts of Sandinista atrocities. It's interesting though you're only educated to the atrocities of one side of that conflict.

Could be that the world court found in favor of the one side as opposed to the other.

A dictator sent troops to defend democracy? Are you trying to be serious?

It's a crazy world.

sovtek

mike65 wrote:

Its lazy more than boring. You'll rarely get a sociatist to admit that left wing authoritarian governments are anything other than an unfortunate neccessity bought on by right-wing imperialist oppression so requiring a strong socialist to protect the poeple.

Mike.

What socialists have said that in this thread?

Akrasia

El Stuntman wrote:

Hi Corinthian,

the above post is symptomatic of a very serious ocular disorder which afflicts many trendy liberals in this country; they can only see the 'crimes' committed by either their own country/government or their own countries natural allies.

to whit:

Palestinian suicide bombers slaughter innocent civilians - deafening silence from trendy liberals
Israeli Army kills people in retaliation - huge diatribe against Israel/Bush etc etc from aforementioned trendy liberals

it's boring

Yeah, The palestinians slaughter innocents, and the Israelis are only 'retaliating'

The bias works both ways.

In reality, most people choose a side.

I have chosen my position, I am anti capitalist and anti imperialist. I didn't choose this position randomly, I arrived at this world view based on the things that I see going on every day and on the academic resources I have access to.

Akrasia

mike65 wrote:

Its lazy more than boring. You'll rarely get a sociatist to admit that left wing authoritarian governments are anything other than an unfortunate neccessity bought on by right-wing imperialist oppression so requiring a strong socialist to protect the poeple.

Mike.

I am a socialist, I am also an anarchist. I of course condemn authoritarianism on both the 'left', and the 'right'

There are very few people 'on the left' who support Stalin, but there are many 'on the right' who support Pinochet. Many on the 'right' complain about 'left wing dictators' while completely ignoring all of the right wing dictators who are little more than proxies and clients of their beloved U.S.A.

Akrasia

The Corinthian wrote:

A dictator sent troops to defend democracy? Are you trying to be serious?

It wasn't about 'democracy' it was ideological. Socialism versus Fascism.

The Anarchists fought on the side of the Spanish government against Franco in the Spanish civil war. It doesn't mean they supported a Spanish republic, it means they were desperate to prevent the fascists from taking control.

I consider fighting against fascism to be a just cause.

sovtek

Akrasia wrote:

It wasn't about 'democracy' it was ideological. Socialism versus Fascism.

The MPLA was democratically elected though.

The Corinthian

sovtek wrote:

Could be that the world court found in favor of the one side as opposed to the other.

Are you suggesting that this means they did not commit atrocities or that they should not be held equally accountable for them then?

It's a crazy world.

Care to respond to the question or would you prefer to remain glib?

Akrasia wrote:

I consider fighting against fascism to be a just cause.

I see... so it's not really about democracy or dictators or human rights really - it's all about "four legs good, two legs bad".

Akrasia

The Corinthian wrote:

I see... so it's not really about democracy or dictators or human rights really - it's all about "four legs good, two legs bad".

No, it's all about human rights. 'Democracy/dictator' is just another term that is bandied about as a political weapon.

Bush is 'democratically elected' but there is ample evidence that he committed election theft both times.

Chavez is 'democratically elected' but this doesn't stop people on the right calling him a 'quasi-dictator'

To me, none of these systems are truly democratic because rule by the people (which is what democracy is) is more than just appointing short term dictators dictators for a short term rule.

I support the struggle against oppressive leaders in a 'democratic' country just as much as i support those resisting a dictatorship.

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

I support the struggle against oppressive leaders in a 'democratic' country just as much as i support those resisting a dictatorship.

So do I. I do equally little in both cases. You?

Anyway, back to Pinochet. Anyone going to test the waters with a 'fair play to him, he stopped another Marxist state' line or am I on my own?

The Corinthian

Akrasia wrote:

No, it's all about human rights. 'Democracy/dictator' is just another term that is bandied about as a political weapon.

How can it all be about human rights when you're more than happy to condemn one side for abusing them and consider the other justified in doing the same thing?

Bush is 'democratically elected' but there is ample evidence that he committed election theft both times.

Those accusations, especially the second time, are very dubious to say the least, so you'll forgive me if I don't take your word for it.

Chavez is 'democratically elected' but this doesn't stop people on the right calling him a 'quasi-dictator'

Yet there have been numerous accusations of him acting in a manner that undermines a fair democracy. It seems unashamedly partisan that you're willing to turn a blind eye to this yet are happy to accept as truth any such accusations made of Bush or Putin.

To me, none of these systems are truly democratic because rule by the people (which is what democracy is) is more than just appointing short term dictators dictators for a short term rule.

Again that's a dubious assertion. By your own admission you seem primarily interested not in human rights, but your vision of human rights. Just like Thatcher and Pinochet and Bush are. You're no different - just left wing.

I support the struggle against oppressive leaders in a 'democratic' country just as much as i support those resisting a dictatorship.

The end justifies the means, in essence.

Sand

I think somebody asked about Pinochet living a long comftable life, and karma - Id agree that Pinochet might be the counterweight for Castro in the great "some Right, some Left but all dictators" contest in the sky. Theres no afterlife though, so he has effectively got away with it. He was never going to stand trial so its not an opportunity missed in that regard.

What socialists have said that in this thread?

Are you being specific to this thread because its about Pinochet, or because you know that Redplanet has solidly supported Fidel and his regime - despite their human rights abuses and political murders/jailings - in the Cuba thread?

Im pretty sure that no ones going to arrive in hailing Pinochet as the heroic embodiment of the great country of Chile, but when Castro pops his clogs - well, suddenly the world will be a smaller, less cheerful place for many.

Luckily theyll have Chavez for, oh decades to come when he installs himself for life.

I have chosen my position, I am anti capitalist and anti imperialist.

Interesting defintions of your views - would you disaprove of an anti-capitalist/anti-imperialist government that committed human rights abuses? Or would it be enough they were [declared, at least] anti-capitalist and anti-imperialist?

Maybe some people have a world view that starts at basic liberalism rather than labels?

El Stuntman

Deleted User wrote:

Anyone going to test the waters with a 'fair play to him, he stopped another Marxist state' line or am I on my own?

LOL

no fish biting?

sovtek

Sand wrote:

Luckily theyll have Chavez for, oh decades to come when he installs himself for life.

Maybe some people have a world view that starts at basic liberalism rather than labels?

Except, of course, when they don't agree with your economic theories on how to run a country. It doesn't seem to be dictators you have a problem with.

The Corinthian

sovtek wrote:

Except, of course, when they don't agree with your economic theories on how to run a country. It doesn't seem to be dictators you have a problem with.

Funny, that's exactly what everyone else is accusing you and Akrasia of.

sovtek

The Corinthian wrote:

Funny, that's exactly what everyone else is accusing you and Akrasia of.

Inaccurately so...yes.

The Corinthian

sovtek wrote:

Inaccurately so...yes.

Inaccurate only in that magical World where "it's a crazy world" is considered a valid rebuttal. Alternatively, you're more than welcome to respond seriously to the points raised if you're so convinced of our inaccuracy.

bobbyjoe

Why does everything turn into left verses right?
The threads about Pinochet it would be interesting to find some views about him form other people. He was a murdering, coward, thieving scumbag in my opinion.
Do I have to write a big list of every other thing I ever condemned or think is wrong to express it?

A Dub in Glasgo

It is whataboutry at it's finest

The Corinthian

bobbyjoe wrote:

Why does everything turn into left verses right?
The threads about Pinochet it would be interesting to find some views about him form other people. He was a murdering, coward, thieving scumbag in my opinion.
Do I have to write a big list of every other thing I ever condemned or think is wrong to express it?

He may well have been the most evil, murdering genocidal bastard on the planet, but when the people most interested in damning him will happily condone evil, murdering genocidal bastards in pursuit of ideologies that they support then the entire discussion becomes a sick joke.

If you’re going to damn dictators, damn them all or spare us your hypocrisy.

Rebeller

El Stuntman wrote:

Hi Corinthian,

the above post is symptomatic of a very serious ocular disorder which afflicts many trendy liberals in this country; they can only see the 'crimes' committed by either their own country/government or their own countries natural allies.

to whit:

Palestinian suicide bombers slaughter innocent civilians - deafening silence from trendy liberals
Israeli Army kills people in retaliation - huge diatribe against Israel/Bush etc etc from aforementioned trendy liberals

it's boring

Since nearly all of us seem agreed that Pinochet was a murdering, thieving scumbag I am throwing my hat into the ring firmly on the left.

I have no hesitancy in condemning tyrants and meglomaniacs on either side of the political divide. My own experience in Cuba and elsewhere has led me to the conclusion that Castro is simply an opportunist Communist. It suited his purposes at the time of the revolution to portray himself as a staunch leftist. It was the only means by which he could take and secure power at that time.

Che Guevara was a different kettle of fish altogether. He was the true drive behind the Cuban revolution and is one of the only true revolutionaries who truly practiced what he preached. He lived and breathed socialism. It was by standing on his shoulders that Castro became dictator for life.

After witnessing and experiencing on 3 continents the ravages and utter depravity wrought by the corporate socialism masquerading as capitalism on the world stage I have developed the belief that the only logical, intelligent way forward for humanity is by means of rel devolved democratic socialism.

Capitalism/imperialism is an obscene cannabilistic ideology that reduces humanity to yet another commodity to be bought, sold and traded to suit the purposes and pocket of a tiny, narrow-minded corrupt cabal.

And before someone says "and what about the good old socialist paradise USSR" I'll say it myself. The USSR was but another proponent of the same old tired imperialist agenda. Witness the rapid conversion of all those dyed in the wool communists after the fall of the wall and their enthusiastic embracing of the worst excesses of the mafia economies of the East created and set in train with funding from such freedom promoting western institutions as the US "National Endowment for Democracy".

It sickens me when I see what has and is still being done in the name of this or that ideology.

Notwithstanding the above, socialism is the only logical choice to ensure the protection, furtherance and development of all spheres of human existence. This has to be a socialist world order controlled by real democratic means (and by democratic I don't mean the sham toothpaste ad campaign elections we now call democracy in Europe and the US).

Any system which can justify the taking of human life or its elimination through failure to provide available necessary resources in order to amass ever greater quantities of an artificial illogical commodity (i.e. free market capitalism is neither sane nor viable. For all those who preach the end of history just wait and see.

Democratic Socialism will have its day.

Long Live Universal Revolution:cool:

Hobbes

The Corinthian wrote:

If you’re going to damn dictators, damn them all or spare us your hypocrisy.

The only person making that assertion is you. The thread is about pinochet and your the one going on about Castro, etc.

Yes there are other evil people in the world. Some people have varying concepts of what evil actually is.

However no *liberal* in this thread has said half the crap people like yourself in the thread are going on about.

If anything all I am seeing is a self defense mechanism that people calling Pinochet evil you have to start stating which others you find evil or your comments don't matter.

Newsflash this thread is about pinochet. Which oddly enough you have yet to comment on, instead only comment on other posters.

Oh and Pinochet wasn't a dick because he was a dictator, he was a dick because he killed so many people and got away with it.

The Corinthian

Hobbes wrote:

The only person making that assertion is you.

Then you’re not bothering to read the thread. When asked if they would equally condemn left wing dictators sovtek and Akrasia refused to do so, le latter going so far as to put forward a defence for the actions of left-wing dictators as being justified.

However no *liberal* in this thread has said half the crap people like yourself in the thread are going on about.

I don’t think you have a clue what a liberal is.

Oh and Pinochet wasn't a dick because he was a dictator, he was a dick because he killed so many people and got away with it.

Just like Castro will. But apparently he only killed bad people.

Rebeller wrote:

I have no hesitancy in condemning tyrants and meglomaniacs on either side of the political divide. My own experience in Cuba and elsewhere has led me to the conclusion that Castro is simply an opportunist Communist.

He’s also a murdering, thieving scumbag.

Long Live Universal Revolution:cool:

Yawn.

bobbyjoe

The Corinthian wrote:

He may well have been the most evil, murdering genocidal bastard on the planet, but when the people most interested in damning him will happily condone evil, murdering genocidal bastards in pursuit of ideologies that they support then the entire discussion becomes a sick joke.

If you’re going to damn dictators, damn them all or spare us your hypocrisy.

So whats your opinion of Pinochet considering thats what the threads about?

BTW I don't agree with having to damn every dictator ever in a thread about Pinochet its like saying "wasn't that murder terrible" "what about the Yorkshire ripper he killed much more" i.e pointless.

The Corinthian

bobbyjoe wrote:

So whats your opinion of Pinochet considering thats what the threads about?

No, this thread is about a bunch of left-wing ideologists wanting to cheer the death of a brutal right-wing dictator, not because he was brutal and not because he was a dictator but because he was right wing. The string of apologists for left-wing dictators, such as Castro, we’ve seen here underlines this.

If we are to learn from Pinochet’s death, then perhaps it is that we should see all dictators as the same and not attempt to paint some as justified or, at worst, ‘opportunistic’ simply because we share their political ideologies. Otherwise this thread is indeed a waste of time - just another partisan masturbatory session where a bunch of flag waving buffoons get to feel good about themselves.

Group Hug Comrades!

Hagar

Pinochet is dead. Pinochet? Are you sure? I'd better fix my sig.

bobbyjoe

The Corinthian wrote:

No, this thread is about a bunch of left-wing ideologists wanting to cheer the death of a brutal right-wing dictator, not because he was brutal and not because he was a dictator but because he was right wing. The string of apologists for left-wing dictators, such as Castro, we’ve seen here underlines this.

If we are to learn from Pinochet’s death, then perhaps it is that we should see all dictators as the same and not attempt to paint some as justified or, at worst, ‘opportunistic’ simply because we share their political ideologies. Otherwise this thread is indeed a waste of time - just another partisan masturbatory session where a bunch of flag waving buffoons get to feel good about themselves.

Group Hug Comrades!

So whats your opinion of Pinochet?

The Corinthian

I gave it - did you miss the 'brutal right-wing dictator' bit? And Castro is a 'brutal left-wing dictator'.

We're not all hypocrites Comrade.

oscarBravo

The Corinthian banned for a week.