Luas Line BX sent back to the drawing board

spacetweek

Spotted in today's Metro. Depressing

Dublin Bus Scuppers Luas link plan

A plan to link Dublin's two Luas lines has been opposed by Dublin Bus and forced back to the drawing board. Dublin Bus claimed the construction work along the intended route would badly disrupt its service. It was also concerned about the usage of Dawson Street as it is already used heavily by buses and the planned Luas could even force some bus services to halt permanently. The intended route would have taken a Luas line through Westmoreland Street, College Green and Dawson Street to connect the red Luas track, which runs between Connolly Station and Tallaght, with the green track from St Stephen's Green to Sandyford.

Alright people, damage control. College Green and Dawson St are out because of Dublin Bus, and O'Connell Street is presumably out because of the disruption it would cause. Are there no options that could avoid these areas?

What about the route that ran Stephen's Green->Kildare St->Westland Row->Pearse->Hawkins->Marlborough?

markpb

spacetweek wrote:

Spotted in today's Metro. Depressing

Depressing that it didn't occur to them before that those routes might cause problems? More depressing still that they don't seem to have talked to DB at all. I know they're the rail procurement agency but there is a big bad world out there that involves more than just trains

OTK

It could be a blessing in disguise. The central connection would have taken roadspace from many bus routes and duplicated the metro alignment.
As an alternative, what about:

• Stephen's Green,
• South King Street,
• Stephen Street,
• Golden Lane,
• Bull Alley,
• turn North on to Patrick Street,
• past Christchurch,
• over the river to join the Red line at Four Courts,
• north along Beresford Street
• to Broadstone garage for DIT/Grangegorman,
• on North up the Broadstone alignment to Cabra
• Finglas,
• crossing the Maynooth line.

lostexpectation

dublin buses need to go around the city center

Winters

Perhaps they should scrap the link up alltogether for the moment and re-examine it again in 2015.

The money should be instead added to the metro north tunnel project so as it can incorporate the green line.

markpb

Winters wrote:

The money should be instead added to the metro north tunnel project so as it can incorporate the green line.

I could be wrong but isn't the idea that the Green line can be upgraded to metro something of a myth? It would have to be closed for months if not years and most of the signalling and power system redone.

Even it was possible, Bertie, Martin and crew are still calling it state of the art and unprecedented. They'd never understand why we'd want it, or worse, the red line, upgraded.

OTK

Winters wrote:

Perhaps they should scrap the link up alltogether for the moment and re-examine it again in 2015.

The money should be instead added to the metro north tunnel project so as it can incorporate the green line.

I agree with this. Why would we build two lines from O'Connell street to Stephen's Green and force people to change instead of integrating them into one line? It's crazy to stop tunnelling at Stephen's Green.

Slice

Yea - what a shame.

It makes you wonder if the line is worth it at all given that Metro North will probably happen around the same time if BX gets delayed anymore.

I personally think they should have considered a route by George's St and Parliament St/Capel St Bridge.

The central route would've totally untangled most of the Dublin Bus network - that was obvious from the beginning.

Isn't the Government being inflexible with DB at the moment over new routes and route changes because of disagreement over privatisation and market liberalisation between the coalition parties? If this is the case then I don't blame DB at all: who, coincidentally, serve more people than Luas could ever dream of.

wwhyte

OTK wrote:

I agree with this. Why would we build two lines from O'Connell street to Stephen's Green and force people to change instead of integrating them into one line? It's crazy to stop tunnelling at Stephen's Green.

I'm with this as well. The link will be dog-slow in operation and dangerous to pedestrians, and it won't be done until Metro North's almost done too. Put the money towards completing Metro North instead.

Even if Metro North stops at Stephen's Green for the time being, it's a perfectly fine way to get across town for Green Line passengers, particularly if there's integrated ticketing (which there must surely be for Luas and Metro at least).

spacetweek

OTK wrote:

It could be a blessing in disguise. The central connection would have taken roadspace from many bus routes and duplicated the metro alignment.
As an alternative, what about:

• Stephen's Green,
• South King Street,
• Stephen Street,
• Golden Lane,
• Bull Alley,
• turn North on to Patrick Street,
• past Christchurch,
• over the river to join the Red line at Four Courts,
• north along Beresford Street
• to Broadstone garage for DIT/Grangegorman,
• on North up the Broadstone alignment to Cabra
• Finglas,
• crossing the Maynooth line.

Yea good point, any new proposals have to take into account that the line is supposed to be further extended to Liffey Junction as originally planned.

The problem I suppose is that your alignment is probably a bit far away from the action so to speak. Also that hill down from CChurch to the Four Courts is really steep.

Interestingly the alignment from the Four Courts onwards that you have there is nearly the same as the old Dundrum->Harold's Cross->CChurch->Liffey Jct luas line that was included in the old Platform For Change schematic.

Victor

What are the chances a minister will come to the rescue / claim responsibility for killing it?

gibo_ie

...well not quite a monorail but why not have part of it raised in stilts/legs for some section of it, maybe the dawson street part (its a dark street anyway). They have done this in Bangkok and i thought it was an excellent system. All footpaths were even up in the air also off the dangerous roads. very simple to get around.
http://www.bts.co.th/en/index.asp -- see skytrain section

just a thought....

dmeehan

gibo_ie wrote:

...well not quite a monorail but why not have part of it raised in stilts/legs for some section of it, maybe the dawson street part (its a dark street anyway). They have done this in Bangkok and i thought it was an excellent system. All footpaths were even up in the air also off the dangerous roads. very simple to get around.
http://www.bts.co.th/en/index.asp -- see skytrain section

just a thought....

but that would spoil the views of georgian dublin :rolleyes:

CtrlSource

gibo_ie wrote:

...well not quite a monorail but why not have part of it raised in stilts/legs for some section of it, maybe the dawson street part (its a dark street anyway). They have done this in Bangkok and i thought it was an excellent system. All footpaths were even up in the air also off the dangerous roads. very simple to get around.
http://www.bts.co.th/en/index.asp -- see skytrain section

just a thought....

An elevated rail on Dawson Street? Oh pweeeese....!

Winters

We couldnt get stilts at the Red Cow, Ballymun dont want them so I seriously doubt they would be even considered for Dublin City Centre.

The Green line is easily metro upgradable from Ranelagh southwards. From Ranelagh northwards is the tricky part. As well as that the line from the green would have to split to continue towards Kimmage and Tallaght in post T21.

At this rate, with a year planning and say 2 year construction period it wouldnt be functioning before late 2010. It would be very disruptive and unmedia friendly. Considering a tunnel would be boring under the alignment and that both metro and luas are interoperable I think the RPA and DoT should go back to the drawing board.

steve-o

I believe that Ogdenville and North Haverbrook might be able to provide some valuable monorail expertise.

But seriously, as markpb says, upgrading the Green line to Metro is a myth. Given that it won't be possible to get tunnelling machines in or out of the ground without digging up a large area of Stephen's Green, would it be an idea to plan "Metro SouthWest" now, continuing Metro North on from Stephen's Green towards Harolds Cross or Rathmines, using the same tunnelling machines.

Chris_533976

Only in this country would one Government sponsored Public Transport organisation scupper the plans of a second Government sponsored Public Transport organisation. Outrageous.

Propellerhead

The alternatives mentioned to the original route scuppered by Marys Harney and O'Rourke are pointless and inconvenient. If the Dawson Street link is scuppered again by vested interests, this time DB, then the idea of linking the two lines should be abandoned altogether until Metro does the job.

Dublin Bus's attitude to Luas is clear when you look at "feeder" routes like the 86. On paper, a good idea to run a bus from Shankill to Sandyford Industrial Estate. In reality, one pointless bus in one direction on Mondays to Friday mornings.

spareman

Propellerhead wrote:

The alternatives mentioned to the original route scuppered by Marys Harney and O'Rourke are pointless and inconvenient. If the Dawson Street link is scuppered again by vested interests, this time DB, then the idea of linking the two lines should be abandoned altogether until Metro does the job.

Dublin Bus's attitude to Luas is clear when you look at "feeder" routes like the 86. On paper, a good idea to run a bus from Shankill to Sandyford Industrial Estate. In reality, one pointless bus in one direction on Mondays to Friday mornings.

Which routes do you think Dublin bus should drop so they will have extra vehicles to bring luas passengers from shankill to sandyford?

murphaph

Winters wrote:

Perhaps they should scrap the link up alltogether for the moment and re-examine it again in 2015.

The money should be instead added to the metro north tunnel project so as it can incorporate the green line.

Given it's now almost 2007, I'd agree completely with the above. MetroNorth is Luas with longer vehicles, same 750Vdc overhead supply. Platforms would need extending but could be done without system disruption. Probably need more substations, again-not a major problem. I wonder are the RPA thinking about doing this. They might well be.

AlekSmart

There is a very important underlying principle at stake here.
Once again we see an essentially simple and greatly beneficial system left wallowing for the want of proper planning and design.

Dublin Bus and it`s 1000 vehicles did`nt suddenly materialize out of a strange yellow mist.
More importantly the ACTUAL travel arrangements of some 200,000 people daily went largely unnoticed by the Planning Professionals.

It is becoming clearer to me that NO progress on the ethos of T21 is possible with the present suspects at the helm.
Bearing in mind that elements of the NDP Public Transport package remain unfulfilled and apparently forgotten I would suggest that the current T21 plans be shelved until the DTA is fully empowered.

The present scent marking of territory by the relevant Top Cats bodes ill for the remainder of the T21 spend.

IF the essential element of "Who`s in Charge" is not addressed then we shall be left with €36 Billion worth of half finished,half understood projects which have little or no relevance or interaction with each other.........

The current Civic and Central Administration have a proven ignorance of Public Transport Basics so it`s best we shaft them quickly.....or failing that...just promote them ???

Propellerhead

spareman wrote:

Which routes do you think Dublin bus should drop so they will have extra vehicles to bring luas passengers from shankill to sandyford?

What's the point of having a route with one outward run five times a week and no return journey at all?

Xylophonic

Propellerhead wrote:

The alternatives mentioned to the original route scuppered by Marys Harney and O'Rourke are pointless and inconvenient. If the Dawson Street link is scuppered again by vested interests, this time DB, then the idea of linking the two lines should be abandoned altogether until Metro does the job.

Dublin Bus's attitude to Luas is clear when you look at "feeder" routes like the 86. On paper, a good idea to run a bus from Shankill to Sandyford Industrial Estate. In reality, one pointless bus in one direction on Mondays to Friday mornings.

afaik, the 86 was not intended to be a luas feeder!

strassenwolf

The story about the link-up not going ahead has not appeared in any of the main papers over the last few days, as far as I know. It would also be a bit at odds with what the minister told the Transport Committee last week:

Minister Cullen wrote:

The BX1 line project is frustrating but there are differing views among the planners in Dublin City Council, Dublin Bus, a competitor and the Railway Procurement Agency which wants to build the line. Dublin City Council’s view is central on this issue because it is the planning authority. The route via Dawson Street and Trinity College is problematic because it is a busy bus corridor but can be accommodated. It is an excellent one and I hope the three statutory bodies will soon conclude their deliberations. The change in city manager also had an impact, with different views taken on the matter.

markpb

strassenwolf wrote:

The story about the link-up not going ahead has not appeared in any of the main papers over the last few days, as far as I know. It would also be a bit at odds with what the minister told the Transport Committee last week:

I would tend to ignore anything Martin Cullen says, half of what he says is rubbish and the other half is fantasy.

Minister Cullen wrote:

The BX1 line project is frustrating but there are differing views among the planners in Dublin City Council, Dublin Bus, a competitor and the Railway Procurement Agency which wants to build the line.

This sums up everything that is wrong with public transport in Ireland. You clowns, DB are not a competitor, they are another part of the public transport network.

strassenwolf

I think he may have been talking about Aircoach, but I'm not certain...

Slice

I really don't see how one Luas line should take precedent over half of DB's routes? Especially when you consider that the 46A carries almost as many people as Luas Green line alone.

strassenwolf

Slice wrote:

I really don't see how one Luas line should take precedent over half of DB's routes? Especially when you consider that the 46A carries almost as many people as Luas Green line alone.

I agree, it shouldn't. And the 46A services would represent only a small fraction of all the bus services passing along the proposed route via Dawson Street and College Green.

Moving to line B wouldn't be great, as that also duplicates a proposed rail line. I actually like line E - the one involving Dawson Street and Kildare Street. One LUAS track on one side of each street, buses on the other side, either moving in the same direction or (preferably) opposite directions. If all car parking were to be removed from both of those streets there'd be lots of space.

spacetweek

Slice wrote:

I really don't see how one Luas line should take precedent over half of DB's routes? Especially when you consider that the 46A carries almost as many people as Luas Green line alone.

If taking space away from DB is such an issue, I can't understand why they don't just have shared running. So long as cars etc. are excluded, it shouldn't be a problem - how often does a bus pass on Dawson St? Every 2 or 3 minutes? That's only 2 or 3 buses to each Luas, assuming the Luas runs every 5 minutes. On streets like Westmoreland you completely segregate the Luas.

antoinolachtnai

Surely this route would just be duplicating the Metro route? It wouldn't open up any new areas to public transport.

It seems to me it would make more sense to take the metro around by Merrion Square and across the Macken St. Bridge to join the extended Tallaght line. This would also allow a pretty close connection between this line and the DART.

Metrobest

I think Luas down Dawson Street would be a blessing in disguise as it would make southside routes more reliable.

Multiple routes. (eg. the 15s, 46, etc) could terminate at the Green for connections to luas, metro and interconnector. Passengers changing onto any of these modes, under integrated ticketing, reach their destination far sooner than if they sit on a horrible bus, stuck in traffic.

Dublin Bus double deckers are an eyesore in our city - they clog up roadspace, they hog pavements, they come within inches of pedestrians as they navigate through Dublin's web of tiny streets. Metro and luas cater for the needs of moving people around the city more efficiently, more comfortably and attractively. And crucially, they're far better for our environment.

Dublin bus saying it must run buses down Dawson and Nassau is just another example of why this semi state monopoly needs to be seriously privatised and introduced to the real world. There are solutions that can accomodate luas and buses, Dublin Bus must come up with them and stop playing a victim's card.

We heard the same dire predictions about the bus routes down Harcourt Street and look what actually happened when Dublin Bus's back was up against the wall. Forced into a corner, it diverted buses round by the Concert Hall and now those routes are running more efficiently than they ever did.

An added bonus being that Harcourt Street is no longer gridlocked with those awful double deckers, a style of bus which hardly any other world city uses.

wwhyte

Metrobest wrote:

Dublin Bus double deckers are an eyesore in our city - they clog up roadspace, they hog pavements, they come within inches of pedestrians as they navigate through Dublin's web of tiny streets.

I love the double deckers! Nothing better than sitting at the front up top watching everything.

markpb

Metrobest wrote:

Multiple routes. (eg. the 15s, 46, etc) could terminate at the Green for connections to luas, metro and interconnector.

That's fine long term thinking but there'll be no metro at the green for five to six years. What do the millions of DB passengers do between now and then if the road is (effectively) closed to buses? Not rhetoric, give me an actual solution if you have one?

Dublin Bus double deckers are an eyesore in our city - they clog up roadspace, they hog pavements, they come within inches of pedestrians as they navigate through Dublin's web of tiny streets.

I totally share your sentiments on deckers but they're a necessary evil for the meanwhile. Too high a percentage of the commuters in Dublin are carried by bus for single deckers to be effective and the streets are (unfortunately) not suitable for bendis.

In a few years when the majority of people are moved by train, I think a lot of the deckers can be phased out. If nothing else, dwell time will drop when this happens.

The real problem is that the RPA and DB seem to be fighting in public instead of sitting down together (a year ago) and trying to agree on a route for that Luas that they can both agree on. Why does public transport companies in Ireland constantly see themselves in competition with each other?

aliveandkicking

http://www.rpa.ie/upload/documents/November%202005%20-%20Luas%20Line%20BX.pdf

According to an article I read a couple of weeks ago (can't remember where exactly) the RPA are now examining Route B and a modified Route C via Hawkins Street. Either way it's going to be Hawkins Street - Marlborough Street on a new bridge over the Liffey.

Slice

Spacetweek: If taking space away from DB is such an issue, I can't understand why they don't just have shared running... how often does a bus pass on Dawson St? Every 2 or 3 minutes?

I think the issue is mostly to do with College Green as the buses travel round to Nassau Street - I don't know about statistics but it feels like half of all traffic on that stretch consists of buses, and they are definitely more often than 2-3 minutes at certain times.

Metrobest I don't think I know of any city that gets by without buses. I think what makes buses in Dublin an eyesore is the fact that most of them terminate in the city centre. They then just sit around for ages, if they were simply travelling through you'd remove the wall of buses along such places as the Quays and Parnell Square.

Metrobest: Dublin bus saying it must run buses down Dawson and Nassau is just another example of why this semi state monopoly needs to be seriously privatised and introduced to the real world. There are solutions that can accomodate luas and buses, Dublin Bus must come up with them and stop playing a victim's card.

The real world? DB serves greater parts of the city and more people (most of who will probably never benefit from a Luas) so how is it unreal for them to expect priority?

It doesn't make sense, and it makes less sense when you consider how the route the RPA want is the same route that will be served by Metro North. The RPA's preferred route was originally conceived at a time before anyone was even thinking of a Metro for Dublin and now that we are wouldn't it make more sense to connect the two Luas lines in such a way that opens up other parts of the city centre to a rail link...

bk

Slice wrote:

Metrobest I don't think I know of any city that gets by without buses. I think what makes buses in Dublin an eyesore is the fact that most of them terminate in the city centre. They then just sit around for ages, if they were simply travelling through you'd remove the wall of buses along such places as the Quays and Parnell Square.

In Prague, all cars and buses (traffic) are banned from the city centre. The city centre is served by a large number of tram and metro lines. Outside the city centre there are bus stations at the tram and metro lines to take people to areas not served by tram or metro.

It works very well, Prague is a beautiful city and a pleasure to walk around with no traffic.

I hope the same eventually develops in Dublin, I hope buses are eventually banned from at least between Stephens Green and Parnell St. and maybe only light imp and single decker buses allowed between the canals. Have the big double deckers taking people further afield operate from Metro and bus stations outside the canals.

I suppose to make all this happen, we need to make sure the M50 upgrade is successful and create the Eastern Bypass (also moving the port and opening the port tunnel up to general traffic). That way you could pretty much ban all traffic between Stephens Green and Parnell St.

Of course this would unlikely happen as it would require far too much foresight, detailed planning and the likes of the RPA and DB to stop squabbling and work together, so very unlikely. Sometimes I think we need a good dictator (most of Pragues excellent infrastructure was built under Russian rule).

Slice

This worked in Prague but not in Newcastle,
See; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcastle_Metro

Wikipedia: Much was made of the Metro's interchange stations such as Four Lane Ends and Regent Centre, which combined a large parking facility with a bus hub and Metro station; this distinction is no longer emphasized. Some passengers complained that the Metro integration was pursued overzealously, and for example, bus passengers to Newcastle would be forced to change to the Metro in Gateshead for a short trip, rather than have the bus route continue for a short distance further into Newcastle

Something tells me to do so in Dublin we'd get a result closer to Newcastle than Prague; it's overly optimistic for most cities hence it's not commonly done.

bk: I hope buses are eventually banned from at least between Stephens Green and Parnell St.

I would like to see fewer cars and more space given over to pedestrians in the city centre - I think the city centre would be a much more pleasant place if this happened and bus routes terminated away from the centre where they won't stand stationary for great lengths of time occupying large stretch of roads unnecessarily.

bk

Slice, obviously I'm not suggesting that this would happen over night, rather gradually.

First by maybe banning cars * and lorries, leaving only buses and Taxi's. Then gradually reducing the number of buses where it makes sense.

* Obviously you can only ban the cars when good alternative ways around the City exist, not the current M50 madness.

Metrobest

markpb wrote:

That's fine long term thinking but there'll be no metro at the green for five to six years. What do the millions of DB passengers do between now and then if the road is (effectively) closed to buses? Not rhetoric, give me an actual solution if you have one??

Whatever happens about luas, metro is going to seriously disrupt current bus routes in Dublin and will force an overhaul of routes, which is long overdue. If it were proactive, Dublin Bus would be already changing routes away from O'Connell Street and College Green; these areas are due for lots of disruption for several years while the metro is built.

If putting in a few new slabs on O'Connell St delayed buses by hideous amounts of time, imagine what will happen when a new tram line goes in and all sorts of holes are being dug in the ground to construct a train station beneath the bridge.

Right now, many routes could be diverted away from Nassau Street via Kevin Street, Nicholas St and either Dame Street or the newly enhanced Quays post port tunnel. Dublin Bus has a smorgasbord of route options available to it but it just couldn't be bothered trying something new.

Resistance to change is endemic across that company.

At night, when tram frequencies are lower, Buses could run along tram tracks and their departure times show up on the electronic displays at tram stops. This would give many bus passengers a tram quality service, alongside a more reliable service during the peak as buses would not be congested along streets unable to cope with them.

Metrobest

bk wrote:

I hope the same eventually develops in Dublin, I hope buses are eventually banned from at least between Stephens Green and Parnell St. and maybe only light imp and single decker buses allowed between the canals. Have the big double deckers taking people further afield operate from Metro and bus stations outside the canals. ).

Yes, a few "green" buses running along the corridor would be a nice feature, but not the hundreds of double deckers which are noisy, polluting and uncomfortable to stand in.

Look at Westmoreland Street in rush hour and it's buses that are the predominant cause of congestion, not cars. Not only that, the scale and intensity of the congestion is totally inappropriate for Dublin's size and population.

The only solution is more efficient modes like luas, to take buses out of our finest city spaces, breathing new life into them.

markpb

Metrobest wrote:

Look at Westmoreland Street in rush hour and it's buses that are the predominant cause of congestion, not cars. Not only that, the scale and intensity of the congestion is totally inappropriate for Dublin's size and population.

The problem with Westmoreland St and O'Connel Street and a whole host of other streets is that Dublin Bus are treating them as city centre bus depots, which they're clearly not. The city council made no provision for any real bus depot so they pile up, one behind another on the side of the road, passengers loading willy nilly all over the place and yes, they do cause congestion of their own.

Don't think this is entirely DBs fault though. There aren't enough train lines to service the city, there aren't enough bus priority measures in the city centre to make for efficient bus movement and there's no decent depot. I can't see the joke on Abbey st making much of a difference but I'll wait and see.

John R

Metrobest wrote:

I think Luas down Dawson Street would be a blessing in disguise as it would make southside routes more reliable.

No. It would just make them less useful, leaving huge numbers of people a long walk or a futile attempt to squeeze on to already overcrowded trams.

It would make already slow commutes for the majority of people without any access to Luas or Metro even slower but why worry about the actual needs of people in the city it is much more important to push through your tram=good bus=bad ideology.

Metrobest wrote:

Multiple routes. (eg. the 15s, 46, etc) could terminate at the Green for connections to luas, metro and interconnector. Passengers changing onto any of these modes, under integrated ticketing, reach their destination far sooner than if they sit on a horrible bus, stuck in traffic.

Yes, that is what they all want. To be turfed off their "horrible" bus where they have a seat so they can wait again in the weather to jostle on board a tram crammed full of other commuters and stand for the rest of their commute.

You complain about buses being an eysore but want to turn Stephen's Green into one massive bus park.

Metrobest wrote:

Dublin Bus double deckers are an eyesore in our city

If only all our streets had trams running on them. How much better they would look with a maze of overhead wires and pylons. :rolleyes:

Metrobest wrote:

Dublin bus saying it must run buses down Dawson and Nassau is just another example of why this semi state monopoly needs to be seriously privatised and introduced to the real world. There are solutions that can accomodate luas and buses, Dublin Bus must come up with them and stop playing a victim's card.

So you think private operators will not want to run services to the

Metrobest wrote:

We heard the same dire predictions about the bus routes down Harcourt Street and look what actually happened when Dublin Bus's back was up against the wall. Forced into a corner, it diverted buses round by the Concert Hall and now those routes are running more efficiently than they ever did.

Only after the traffic flow on the Green was reversed and extra bus priority measures were put in place. Hatch Street is still a bottleneck, all it takes is one badly parked car or truck and it grinds to a halt.

Metrobest wrote:

An added bonus being that Harcourt Street is no longer gridlocked with those awful double deckers, a style of bus which hardly any other world city uses.

So now it is the style of bus that you object to? LMFAO You really will come ot with the most ridiculous nonsense to justify your arguement.

John R

Metrobest wrote:

Whatever happens about luas, metro is going to seriously disrupt current bus routes in Dublin and will force an overhaul of routes, which is long overdue. If it were proactive, Dublin Bus would be already changing routes away from O'Connell Street and College Green; these areas are due for lots of disruption for several years while the metro is built.

You do realise that it is going to be tunneled, there will be disruption at the stations and works access points but unless the project is badly mishandled the effects on city traffic should be minimised. Lots of much bigger sub surface projects have been completed while keeping roadways above open.

Metrobest wrote:

If putting in a few new slabs on O'Connell St

Well done. That's a very accurate description of the works on O'Connell Street over the last few years. :rolleyes:

Metrobest wrote:

Right now, many routes could be diverted away from Nassau Street via Kevin Street, Nicholas St and either Dame Street or the newly enhanced Quays post port tunnel. Dublin Bus has a smorgasbord of route options available to it but it just couldn't be bothered trying something new.

Yes, stupid them. Why can't they divert some of the most heavily used routes down some of the most congested streets in the opposite direction to where people want to go. :rolleyes:

Metrobest wrote:

At night, when tram frequencies are lower, Buses could run along tram tracks and their departure times show up on the electronic displays at tram stops. This would give many bus passengers a tram quality service, alongside a more reliable service during the peak as buses would not be congested along streets unable to cope with them.

That is such contradictory rubbish that it is not worth responding to.

John R

Metrobest wrote:

Look at Westmoreland Street in rush hour and it's buses that are the predominant cause of congestion, not cars.

Not correct. The cause of congestion in that location is the poorly managed traffic on the exits from Westmoreland Street.

Aston Quay is constantly backed up and the pedestrian traffic crossing it makes left turns slow and hazardous. The light sequence on OCB causes traffic to back up in the right turn lanes for Eden Quay for most of the green sequence from Westmoreland St. Both of these stop proper access across the bridge even when the path is clear.

Metrobest wrote:

Not only that, the scale and intensity of the congestion is totally inappropriate for Dublin's size and population.

Does that actually mean ANYTHING? Is there a scale of conngestion that IS appropriate for Dublin's size and population?

Metrobest wrote:

The only solution is more efficient modes like luas, to take buses out of our finest city spaces, breathing new life into them.

The only solution is inclusive transport solutions that give everybody real alternatives to the private car. That means giving proper access to those who do not live in the catchment areas for rail and light rail services. That group by the way is a large majority of Greater Dublin residents and will be for the forseeable future.

Propellerhead

That is a valid point but I believe that removing road space for public transport is an inferior option to planning proper dedicated public transport corridors exclusively for the use of, and in order of being able to move numbers, trains, trams and buses. All have their part to play but I am convinced that our piecemeal approach to transport infrastructure and stupidity like Dublin Bus and the RPA pulling in two different directions over linking two tramlines that should never have been separated in the first place. We will be condemned by future generations for our lack of vision if we don't get things right and soon before the petrol and diesel supplies on which we are arguably the most dependent per capita in Europe become critical.

Dublin is possibly the textbook example of procrastination and attempted cheap solutions not at all solving the fundamental problem of land (mis)use and coherent planning. We build a motorway bypass around the city, zone its immediate area for business use and then wonder why the damn thing is snarled up for so much of the day.

The original DART proposals would have delivered a decent fixed track and busway infrastructure twenty five years ago if our public administrators had any brains or were more concerned with the well being of the city than by pulling strokes.

The most blatantly stupid action done years ago was the rezoning of significant portions of the proposed (DART) busway from Mount Argus to Tallaght. A housing estate was built in Kimmage right in the path of the busway. The busway with proper priority for buses could have been the single most useful piece of transport infrastructure in the city and could easily have been upgraded to combined tram and bus running, providing a shorter route than the circuitious route Luas takes now, itself a product of land being kept for a DART line between Cherry Orchard, the Red Cow and Tallaght.

Of course, long fingering by both FF and FG lead governments lead to that mess in the first place, with Garret dithering over the DART, admitting at the official opening of it that he would never have sanctioned it, and then Fianna Fail pulling stroke politics by killing the Dublin Transport Authority and then ruling out DART.

Someone once said to me that Luas etc were delayed for so long because it was hard for certain people to figure out how to soak money from it. Will Ireland in the late twentieth and early twentyfirst century go down in posterity as the country of private affluence and public squalor? It is our choice.

bk

John R wrote:

If only all our streets had trams running on them. How much better they would look with a maze of overhead wires and pylons. :rolleyes:

Please, buy a cheap air ticket to Prague and be prepared for just how pleasant it is.

John R

bk wrote:

Please, buy a cheap air ticket to Prague and be prepared for just how pleasant it is.

Been there before but if you are offering to fund a repeat trip for "fact-finding" than I am only too happy to go back.

Removing private vehicles from Dublin streets to the same extent as in Prague would achieve a similar level of pleasantness. The next generation of city bus builds is going to see a huge jump in technology, hybrid power and 100% clean hydrogen fuel cell buses are already being tested and I am certain that within 10 years will be replacing the current all diesel fleets en masse.

It only seems as though the streets are clogged with buses because they get stuck in traffic and make very slow progress through the city centre, if you actually count the throughput on heavily used but uncongested streets it is immediately obvious that bus traffic alone is not a huge burden on the city.

I am not suggesting that buses are a better solution than trams for city transport, I was rebutting Metrobeast's "buses are an eysore" arguement. Ask any photographer what is worse when trying to take a picture of an historic building or an event and they would always point to the electric wires not passing traffic.


IF Dublin had a tram network that came close to matching Prague (35 tram lines running to 560 kilometres with over 900 trams) then there would most certainly be a strong case for running most or all bus routes only to the edges of the city.

Oh and as well as the extensive tram network and a few commuter railways they also have more buses than Dublin.

At present and in the medium-long term (depending on politics) we will be nowhere near that stage in developing a comprehensive tram and rail network and until we are then it is ESSENTIAL that the large number of commuters who have no PT alternative to bus travel are properly accomodated and given equal priority which means proper direct links to the city centre.

Metrobest

Let me try and deal with John R's points as briefly as I can.

I don't have an anti-bus ideology. I have a pro- "good taste" ideology. The double deckers that noisily congest the streets of central Dublin are completely inappropriate for their surroundings and look awful. The fact that you love them speaks volumes.

We've all experienced the horrible feeling as one of those huge double deckers passes within inches of your face and lurches around a corner on a tiny city street. Why are we still in the mindset of allowing these vile double deckers onto streets for which they are inappropriate? Double deckers are also antisocial as skangers like to congregate at the the back, away from Mr Driver's prying eyes!

If cities like New York, Sydney, Paris and Amsterdam can get away with single deckers, why can't Dublin?

As for luas, most people think it looks great. Not only does it look modern and sleek, it blends in with the Georgian architecture and its overhead wires are unobtrusive. Never forget, Dublin used to be full of tram lines, not double deckers!

I'm quite happy to have a limited amount of buses at points in the city centre where there won't be bus or rail - Kevin Street and Camden Street being key examples. And here's where buses can be diverted away from key city centre spaces where metro and luas can move people more efficiently, pleasantly and attractively.

As for metro construction and traffic disruption, I've seen enough metro station construction sites in cities around the world to know that they do cause serious disruption; they close off streets, they barricade off sections of public spaces. It's all neccessary but it is disruptive and you're fooling yourself if you think the lower half of O'Connell St isn't going to spend some time looking like a gravel pit. And Dublin Bus is fooling itself if it thinks that the current route structure in the city centre can continue to function as we know it.

Dublin Bus is going to have to start rerouting buses away from the O'Connell-Nassau axis very soon and that's going to be neccessary whatever happens with the luas link up.

Finally, though you mock my suggestion of running buses along the tram line in off peak periods, it makes perfect sense because there's larger gaps between trams and buses can fill them. Also, buses are running to lower frequencies and won't disrupt trams. This happens at nighttime in Amsterdam with buses running along tram tracks and departure times displayed on the VDU. And people love it.

Aquavid

Metrobest wrote:

Never forget, Dublin used to be full of tram lines, not double deckers!

. . and those trams were all (with the solitary exception of the line that passed under the bath Road railway bridge) DOUBLE-DECKERS !!!!!

Dublin Bus did move away from double-deckers for a period in the early to mid 90s, and started converting routes wholesale to large-scale single-deck operation.

Bitterly resented by passengers, only 40 of whom could now get a seat on the number 39 or 78A, rather than 76 (seats).

In recent years, Dublin Bus has been actively replacing single-deckers with double-decks as they become due for replacement - given that the total number of buses in the fleet is restricted so tightly by government (fleet size can only increase with permission, as per the 100 increase this year) this was their only way of increasing capacity while the Minister was blocking their requests.

Dublin and London are big fans of the double-decker concept, New York (as you pointed out) is not. I've endured long, crushed, standing rides on the New York system, and know which mode I prefer!

Also, a sea change is starting in the North American market - double-deckers, previously only a sightseeing curiosity are now beginning to take off on city and commuter services, with Alexander Dennis (one manufacturer) estimating that several hundred will be ordered over the coming months.

Victoria BC is a recent convert, as is Vegas.

Aquavid

murphaph

Double deckers are fine for Dublin. If they're good enough for the two largest cities in Europe then they're good enough for me! Singapore and HK also use them without issue.

Victor

Just before you get rid of all the buses from St. Stephen's Green, realise that they have to go somewhere.

7B - 5
7D - 1
10/10A - 111
11/A - 55
11B - 26
14 - 34
14A - 32
15 - 41
15A - 54
15B - 49
15C - 21
15E - 1
15F - 1
15X - 1
20B - 14 (some)
25X - 13
27C - 2
27X - 5
32X - 3
37X - 3
39B - 4
39X - 5
41X - 6
44/C - 36 (most)
44B - 2 (some)
46A - 146
46B - 26 (most)
46C - 8
46D - 1
46E - 1
46X - 1
48A - 30
49X - 1
50X - 1
51D - 4
51X - 2
58C - 1
58X - 1
65X - 1
66D - 1
66X - 8
67X - 3
70X - 2
77X - 2
84X - 10
92 - 42
116 - 5
117 - 1
118 - 2
127 - 3
129 - 1
145 - 77
172 - 9
746 - 14
Total one way - 929

Aircoach - 78? (possibly a lot higher)
Coaches
Tour buses

So, by my calculations, that probably more than 100,000 people per day a lot more than Luas carries.