Holocaust laws in europe

mikedragon32

marcsignal wrote:

Finally, what of the actions of the Israeli Military in the Middle East ? Is that Holocaustal ? just Genocidal ? or merely Atrocious ? Or simply an Internal Matter we shouldn't be 'sticking our noses into' ??

Surely then, there should have been no intervention by the Allies when Germany invaded Poland? How about the former Yugoslavia? Rwanda? On a global scale these and countless other instances where Allies, NATO or UN get involved, are "internal matters"?

Dontico

marcsignal wrote:

so nobody would have a snowballs chance in hell of trying to convince me it didn’t happen exactly as we have all learned, not even the Iranian Prime Minister.
Strangely, I don’t think this is what he is actually trying to do, but first we must consider his motive for holding this conference in the first place.
It is abundantly clear that this man is a Jew hater, plain and simple. He has said on record that he wants to drive the Israelis into the sea, and in that respect his motive for holding this conference should be obvious to everyone.

there were jews at the conference also, so i wouldnt calll the iranian priminister. he didnt even say were or not he believed in the holocaust. he was just trying to raise the issue that not only jews died during the holocaust. people forget,(very easily i might add), that mostly russians died.

i dont think the iranian priminister would discriminate against anyone for thier religion or were they are from.

Victor

I saw something recently about fascism and its current strength in East Germany and the opinion was that this laws are still very much needed.

Deleted User wrote:

Should free speech be absolute?

No. You can't shout "fire" in a crowded theatre.

Gurgle wrote:

Jews were hated across Europe not because of their religion but because they were the richest group in every city in Europe. They were the bankers, moneylenders and merchants. In the bad times, they looked after each other and left everyone else to rot. Read 'The merchant of Venice' for a quick view of how they were seen by the great unwashed in the late 16th century. This didn't change much up to the 20th.

"Some jews" were rich perhaps?

Wicknight wrote:

The best response against holocaust denial is indifference.

Indifference is anger.

marcsignal wrote:

He has said on record that he wants to drive the Israelis into the sea,

Wasn't it that he wanted "Israel removed from the map"?, that is separating Israel from Israelis.

Hobbes

Sounds like Iran acting the bollox tbh.

The denial laws I can't really agree with but I can see where it is coming from.

Revisionist history is generally a bad thing. Especially if your teaching it to kids.

Captain Trips

Perhaps it would be interesting if Ireland had a memorial to the Palestinians who have died due to state-led war on a people and their culture - I'm sure many can recongise it's significance

By having the laws it makes a big fat "Look here!" button I think. Stalin had many camps and discharged many Jews to them and from office/jobs long before Hitler started the war when Stalin was on the same side - I don't see people pointing the finger at the Russians.

The US and UK were on the same side as the communists, and went against a rather prevailing view of many europeans at the time, which I always thought was interesting given modern cultural developments in both those countries.

brianthebard

Hobbes wrote:

Sounds like Iran acting the bollox tbh.

The denial laws I can't really agree with but I can see where it is coming from.

Revisionist history is generally a bad thing. Especially if your teaching it to kids.

Revisionism is not the same as denying an event.

Hobbes

brianthebard wrote:

Revisionism is not the same as denying an event.

It can be. If I change history to say holocaust never happened in WWII then that revisioning history.

brianthebard

Hobbes wrote:

It can be. If I change history to say holocaust never happened in WWII then that revisioning history.

Revisionist history is about reassessing historical events in order to better understand them. What you are talking about is negationism, a pervertion of revisionism. It goes under the same broad heading but they mean different things. One is not a good enough reason to not use the other.

marcsignal

mikedragon32 wrote:

Surely then, there should have been no intervention by the Allies when Germany invaded Poland? How about the former Yugoslavia? Rwanda? On a global scale these and countless other instances where Allies, NATO or UN get involved, are "internal matters"?

You misunderstand my point mikedragon, I certainly don't think the Actions of the Israeli Army are an internal matter we have no buisness interfering in, quite the contrary, but it is often difficult to even voice that opinion or object in any way to their violent excesses without being bludgned into silence by people who urge us to remember what happened to the jews during the holocaust.

marcsignal

Victor wrote:

Wasn't it that he wanted "Israel removed from the map"?, that is separating Israel from Israelis.

Yes that's right,but i've also heard him say on record, albiet off the cuff, what i mentioned also about being driven into the sea.

My overall point really was, yes, the holocaust was a terrible terrible thing, perhaps the worst crime of the 20th Century, but when it is constantly refered to as the bench mark for such crimes, other things, that are in my view equally terrible, such as the treatment of the Palestinians, seem 'not as bad' and are therefore not acted upon by the world community as i believe they should be.

marcsignal

Dontico wrote:

there were jews at the conference also, so i wouldnt calll the iranian priminister. he didnt even say were or not he believed in the holocaust. he was just trying to raise the issue that not only jews died during the holocaust. people forget,(very easily i might add), that mostly russians died.

i dont think the iranian priminister would discriminate against anyone for thier religion or were they are from.

That's true that there were jews at the conference, but as i've already mentioned there are many prominent jews around the world that are not at all happy about how the holocaust is being hijacked by those who want to justify the actions of the israeli military, and Israel in general.

The generally accepted figure for holocaust victims is around 11.4million of all faiths, nationalities and political backgrounds.
If i'm honest i think that even this figure is a conservative estimate when you consider that large areas of Russia would not have had reliable census figures to go on at the time.
Not to mention the fact that in countries like Estonia and Lithunia Pro-German/Nazi factions were already purging and killing their Jewish population and political opponents when they heard the Panzers were about to roll into town at any time.

But as you have said the Russians suffered more in that war than anyone by far, and you're dead right when you say that that is often convienently forgotten. Wasn't their tally something like 33million ? Not to mention the other countless numbers Stalin bumped off himself.

As regards the Iranian Prime Minister, he is a shrewd cookie, and if he can further his cause by using these prominent jewish spokespeople to back up his claims, all the better for his arguement, wouldn't you agree ?

MorriganGael

The Holocaust laws, I think, violate the rule of law.

When people become intolerant of historical examination, then we all need to talk.

Many nations have commited atrocities USA (Hiroshima, internment camps), Britain (Dresden), Germany (Blitz, death camps), Soviet Union (Gulags, death camps).

The USSR killed 20 million in death camps before WW II even started.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE4.HTM

And 60 million in total from 1917 to 1989. So when we civilized people talk about and examine history, we do have to do it from a fair perspective and not paranoid, fanatic blindness.

While crimes against humanity were committed by Nazis, British, American and Soviets, we do have to open the discussion to the crimes so we find the true factual standing of these crimes so as not to repeat them.

That is how we evolve as human beings. We discuss the atrocities and genocides of our collective history, and grow and learn and become better human beings.

The Holocaust conference in Iran was about addressing genocide, not about denying it.

That last thing humanity needs is ignorance, hatred and resentment over exaggerations of crimes. Politicans use that to further their own ends. We as people who die in these genocides have to hold our leaders accountable for the truth.

Victor

MorriganGael wrote:

The Holocaust laws, I think, violate the rule of law.

Then why haven't they been overturned?

Gurgle

marcsignal wrote:

But as you have said the Russians suffered more in that war than anyone by far, and you're dead right when you say that that is often convienently forgotten. Wasn't their tally something like 33million ? Not to mention the other countless numbers Stalin bumped off himself.

I think more of the Russian casualties in WW2 could be attributed to Stalin than Hitler.

Notions like paratroopers without parachutes (aim for a snowdrift) and more men than guns (pick his up when he gets shot) served to dramatically increase Russian casualties.

Burning down cities (complete with civilians) to prevent the Germans from picking up any supplies was another stroke of military genius that left millions of Russians dead.

All in all Stalin's war policy was victory at any cost.

MorriganGael

I think having laws against historical examination does not honor those that really did die, who were individuals with names and families.

Compare the Genocides that occured in Nazi Germany with USSR:
"Death by Government"

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM

USSR - 62 million deaths
China - 35 million deaths
Nazi - 21 million deaths

We, as humans, need to examine all genocide so we can pay homage to those that did die. To have laws that prevent the examination of history causes the de-humanization of mankind.

We need to learn from facts and not be run into more wars by myths, ignorance, fear, hatred. Discussing the deaths of Nazi Germany, whether is includes the Holocaust or not, is vital if humanity is to move forward and evolve.

Not discussing the Holocaust leads to ignorance which leads to fear which leads to hate. Humanity demands that the Holocaust is discussed freely as all the victims of genocide deserve our respect.

We need to grow and examine the crimes of humanity.

The Laws protecting the discussion of the Holocaust are like the laws protecting the discussion of the Bible in 1200 AD. Men and women were imprisoned just for translating the Bible from Latin to Gaelic. We need to see the historical parallels here so we avoid the hatred that ignorance creates.

The Laws against Holocaust discussion in Europe must be removed for humanity to heal, understand the past, and grow.

Victor

MorriganGael wrote:

I think having laws against historical examination does not honor those that really did die, who were individuals with names and families.

Compare the Genocides that occured in Nazi Germany with USSR:
"Death by Government"

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM

USSR - 62 million deaths
China - 35 million deaths
Nazi - 21 million deaths

And there folks, we have a perfect example of the revisionism that these laws are designed to stop "No the Nazis weren't that bad, they only killed 21 million, don't count the people who died fighting back". Estimates of war dead in World War Two are in the order of 62 million, admittedly probably 20 million of those died in Asia and the Pacific. So there you have it folks the Nazis didn't kill 42 million, they only killed 21 million.

philologos

In relation to the Holocaust fair enough it did happen, but are we being unfair. People tend to forget that even Britain had a role in the persecution of Jews. When illegals reached Palestine from the continent of Europe or Africa they were deported to Mauritius and many where beaten and even killed there (by Britsh troops). Russia also were involved in the persecution of Jews and was the reason that the Aliyah's even took place in many cases.

Tea drinker

As for Freedom of speech etc, remembering the past is a way of avoiding repitition, freedom to incite hate, speak untruths etc should be curtailed.
It may be easy to shut an individual up, but this is more difficult with an organisation, a riotous mob or a government.

Of course we all know governments pervert the truth as necessary to suit their intentions. History wrote by the victors etc. Looking at current events can take the sheen off those nicely printed historical facts.
the Holocaust happened. And yes it is being used as a stick to beat Palestinians. Indeed the newly enlarged Germany could be accused of forgetting the lessons of the past by helping greatly in the precipitation of the war in Yugoslavia.

nesf

Jakkass wrote:

People tend to forget that even Britain had a role in the persecution of Jews.

Limerick people also.

Zombrex

MorriganGael wrote:

we do have to open the discussion to the crimes so we find the true factual standing of these crimes so as not to repeat them.

The truth about the holocaust has already been established.

While I am strongly against Holocaust denial laws one should not confuse support of the holocaust deniers to speak their mind with support for their claims.

There claims are nonsense, based on religious bigotry, misplaced nationalism, and simple ignorance. The point is that they have a right to be bigoted and ignorant, not that one agrees with their bigotry and ignorance.

MorriganGael

Especially when according to the Encyclopedia Brittanica showed the total number of Jews on the planet INCREASED during the six years beween 1939 and 1946.

In terms of having laws to try to enforce history is a bit dictatorial, it's very much like laws to enforce "Biblical History" in the Dark Ages, such as Jesus Christ walked on water as such and such a time and Moses parted the Red Sea at such and such a year, etc.

Are we going to support laws which prohibit questioning of Hiroshima or the USSR Gulag deaths?

How do laws forbidding the examination of the actual Jewish persons who died, getting their actual names, so people can begin to honor those who individuals who did die?

If we, as humanity, lump together all the individual deaths into a myth, then it's no longer history, it's myth, and myths are where ignorance and fear take root.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE4.HTM

Encyclopedia Brittanica showed the total number of Jews on the planet INCREASED during the six years beween 1939 and 1946. Jews and many races and religions were killed in WW II, but if we are not accurate we do not honor those that died.

We see that the governments that try to shut down free speech and historical examination are the ones that kill the most. The USSR killed 60 million people to try to squash dissent.

Those who want to shut up civil, humane, free speech are the threat to humanity.


Lenin Genocide, USSR: 62 million deaths
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE4.HTM

Chapter 3. 2,200,000 Victims: The NEP Period 1923-1928

* Figure 3.1. Range in NEP Democide Estimates
* Table 3.1. NEP Period Democide
* Figure 3.2. Democide Components for Civil War and NEP Periods
* Figure 3.3. Soviet Democide and Annual Rate by Period
* Appendix 3.1
o Table 3.A. 2,200,000 Victims During the NEP Period: Sources, Calculations, and Estimates

Chapter 4. 11,440,000 Victims: The Collectivization Period 1928-1935

* Figure 4.1. Range of Collectivization Democide Estimates
* Table 4.1. Collectivization Period Democide
* Figure 4.2. Democide Components for Three Periods
* Figure 4.3. Soviet Democide and Annual Rate by Period
* Appendix 4.1
o Table 4.A. 11,440,000 Victims During the Collectivization Period: Sources, Calculations, and Estimates

Chapter 5. 4,345,000 Victims: The Great Terror Period 1935-1938

* Figure 5.1. Range of Great Terror Democide Estimates
* Table 5.1. Great Terror Period Democide
* Figure 5.2. Democide Components for Four Periods
* Figure 5.3. Soviet Democide and Annual Rate by Period
* Appendix 5.1
o Table 5.A. 4,345,000 Victims During the Great Terror Period: Sources, Calculations, and Estimates

Chapter 6. 5,104,000 Victims: Pre-World War II Period 1939 to June, 1941

* Figure 6.1. Range in Pre-World War II Democide Estimates
* Table 6.1. Pre-World War II Period Democide
* Figure 6.2. Democide Components for Five Periods
* Figure 6.3. Soviet Democide and Annual Rate by Period
* Appendix 6.1
o Table 6.A. 5,104,000 Victims During the Pre-World War II Period: Sources, Calculations, and Estimates

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE4.HTM


Lenin set up all those Gulag Death Camps, and they killed about 19 million people, dissenters and the poor, before WW II.

The danger to silencing political dissent and intellectual historical examination is greater than the various dictator regimes such as Hitler, Pol Pot.

The Lenin dictatorship killed many times that of Nazi Germany. So we have to place our fear of certain political thesis within a true context of what constitutes a threat to humanity.

Realizing that Hitler and Nazi form of Dictatorship did not kill as many millions as the Lenin and Communist form of dictatorship does not absolve Hitler or Nazism from their crimes. Laws to prevent civilization from learning are fascist much as Leninist Communism was.

We need to examine history so we can learn and create a better society.


Nazi Genocide; 21 million deaths
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE3.HTM

TABLES

Table 1.1 . Nazi Democide
Table 1.2 . Nazi Democide Rates
Table 1.3 . Comparison of Nazi Democide to That of Other Regimes
Table A . Estimates, Calculations, and Sources

FIGURES

Figure 1.1 . Nazi Democide Range
Figure 1.2 . Nazi Democide Compared to That of Others.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE3.HTM

The greatest danger to humans is accepting myths which are based on hatred. This only leads to more hatred and serves to justify hatred and further wars, which is bad. Exposing the myths which are built to create hatred and examining the facts which dispel the myths and thus the hatred. We need to examine and discuss the Holocaust, and all human tragedies, freely and without fear.


Nazi Genocide : 21 million
USSR Genocide: 62 million


Why should there be any laws to protect history. We need to see what type of politics are the worst danger to humanity by studying the details of history.

The time for humanity to stop supporting myths which lead to ignorance, fear and hatred is over. The Holocaust, like all mass killings, must be examined so we learn the facts and can prevent the kind of myth and hatreds that killed 100 million in the last century of all kinds of people.

history_buff

Good post, Morrigan.

The Holocaust of millions of Christians in Soviet Russia is rarely talked about, as is the fact that many, if not the majority of commissars and bureaucrats who ordered this mass murder were in fact fanatically anti-Christian Jewish extremists.

Also rarely talked about is the fact that Israel - which makes a hobby out of (i) chasing old German men, (ii) embezzling money supposedly set aside for Jewish victims of World War II and (iii) ethnically cleansing Palestinians - will not hand over to Polish authorities one Solomon Morel, a Jewish Soviet police commander responsible for the death of thousands of German and Polish prisoners during the war.

The fact is that history is dotted with genocide after genocide, and yet only one has achieved almost religion-like status, to the extent that the entire world cannot even whisper about any existing (or as the case may be, non-existent) holes, inconsistencies and lies in the "original story". I don't think Ahmedinejad was attacking the victims; he was attacking the myth, which teaches that the Jewish people, and particularly Israel - the existence of which is built upon the Nazi genocide - are beyond reproach and immune to any propensity towards crime or genocide themselves, and that their concerns and desires are sacrosanct.

Can one be thrown into prison for "denying" the Communist murder of millions? I think not.

I also think it's both sad and suspicious that emerging generations of Germans are still saddled with this unnatural, hereditary guilt, while Israel builds ghetto walls around the West Bank and their allies kill tens of thousands of innocents in Iraq.

Sponge Bob

history_buff wrote:

Good post, Morrigan.

The Holocaust of millions of Christians in Soviet Russia is rarely talked about

They were not targeted as christians or for being christians. They were targeted for being educated or bourgeois. Most educated and bourgeois Soviet citizens were christians as it happens.

Also rarely talked about is the fact that Israel - which makes a hobby out of (i) chasing old German men, (ii) embezzling money supposedly set aside for Jewish victims of World War II and (iii) ethnically cleansing Palestinians - will not hand over to Polish authorities one Solomon Morel, a Jewish Soviet police commander responsible for the death of thousands of German and Polish prisoners during the war.

This is semi correct at least. Israel generally does not extradite criminals who have fled there for whatever reason. They have refused to extradite Morel to Poland ...even for crimes against humanity .

One would question why the Poles themselves ( he was a Polish communist operative when the crimes against humanity occured in late 1945 ) have not chased up too many of their fellow countrymen who were responsible for horrendous atrocitoes against ethnic Germans especially in 1945 and 1946. This means Catholic Poles and Jewish Poles both.

Morel is probably small beer compared to others still alive in Poland who were never charged with anything, him being accused of crimes of omission leading to the death of up to 1700 prisoners , from typhoid not gas.

see.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml%3Bsessionid%3DHJVRSJNCAFNVVQFIQMGSM5WAVCBQWJVC?xml=/news/2005/01/02/wpole02.xml&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=72190

Zombrex

MorriganGael wrote:

Encyclopedia Brittanica showed the total number of Jews on the planet INCREASED during the six years beween 1939 and 1946.

Morrigan I've heard all the holocaust denial "evidence" before, there was a long long thread on it on the Irish Sceptics forum a year or so ago. Only a tiny bit of digging reveals that most of it is either misrepresentations that do disservice to historical accuracy, or simply made up nonsense.

The Encyclopedia Brittanica statistics you quote are actually based on a common system of estimating the Jewish population, also used in the "World Almanac 1949" which estimated the world wide Jewish population at 15,713,638.

What is never mentioned by holocaust deniers on their websites, or their blogs, is the fact that right underneath the population figures in the 1945 to 1948 Almanacs is the disclaimer that clearly states the figures are based on 1938 data, the "best available" at the time.

The figures are estimations of the population in 1948 derived from pre-1938 population rates. This was common practice in estimating population size, which is still used today. There is nothing wrong with it, and it can be quite accurate.

But of course it doesn't assume that the German government decided to kill approx 6 million Jews.

Part of the major problem of Holocaust denial is that it is often spread over things like the internet by either religious bigotry, or by people who simply like the idea of a conspiracy theory. Neither groups has much regard for historical accuracy or have much problem quoting figures in a dishonest way. Which is why you can find a 100 websites that quote either the EB or the World Almanac figures yet none of them quote the disclaimer that these figures are estimates based on population data taken before the Holocaust.

It is hard to tell if this is done out of malice or not, if those reproducing these figures realise the historical error they are making or not. I would imagine that initially some of them must have, since those reading the World Almanac would have seen the disclaimer. But once those figures are out on holocaust denial websites without the disclaimer, others simply take the figures at face value, so one cannot say that there is malice in these figures being reproduced over and over.

The issue then becomes the motivation. Why do people take these "facts" at face value, on websites that are often full of other racist or religious bigotry. Sure if someone was genuinely only interested in historical accuracy a website that has something like "white power" stamped all over it would be a clear warning sign that maybe this isn't the best place to get unbiased well researched facts and figures on the holocaust.

It seems to be human nature to take facts at face value that appear off the internet, no matter how bizare they are. You see this all the time with those emails that go around saying things like "the average person swollows 4 spiders while sleeping a year" (which isn't true btw). So I suppose I can't blame people to much for taking these holocaust denial "facts" at face value, especially when you couple it with the conspiracy that Jewish forces are attempting to white wash what really happened. Every loves a conspiracy theory after all.

But that doesn't stop holocaust denial or "revision" from being historical nonsense.

MorriganGael wrote:

Jews and many races and religions were killed in WW II, but if we are not accurate we do not honor those that died.

History has been pretty accurate in recording the holocaust. The only people who disagree are the holocaust deniers, and as we have see from above, they aren't exactly an unbiased group, or a group particular interested in historical accuracy.

The hardcore holocaust deniers (ie not someone who just reads a fact on a denial website and takes it at face value, but rather someone who puts the "fact" up in the first place knowing it is wrong) appear to want to alter the statistics to make it appear that the Nazi's were not actually as bad as what people think ("relocation rather than extermination"), or to make it appear that there actually was a Jewish plot to take over the world after all.

As I said, this seems to be done out of bigotry ("white power!"), missplaced nationalism ("Hitler was Germany's greatest leader!") or simply ignorance.

It is important to remember that they should have a right to do this, to be bigots, to be ignorant.

But equally that does not mean there is any weight behind their claims.

MorriganGael wrote:

Lenin set up all those Gulag Death Camps, and they killed about 19 million people, dissenters and the poor, before WW II.

I've never quite understood this "my genocide was bigger than your genocide" argument. I don't know anyone who thinks that the USSR did not commit horrific acts during its 80 year history. Except maybe people from Russia themselves with strong nationalist feeling (Stalin recently came top in a poll of Russia's greatest leaders)

I learnt about the USSR camps in secondary school history, and it is part of the Irish leaving cert modern history course. So I'm not sure where the idea that this is ignored by modern history.

I also don't quite understand how this relates back to the Jewish Holocaust? Is it resentment that the Jewish Holocaust gets more media coverage than genocides in other parts of the world, at other times?

I commend anyone who wishes to highlight the genocides that happened throughout history, from Africa to Russia, but is it real necessary to do this while bad mouthing other genocides ("my genocide is worse than yours!", type of thing).

There are a lot of reasons that the Jewish holocaust is in the minds of Western Europeans a lot, where as other genocides from Russia to Rwanda are not thought about as much. Firstly it happened in Western Europe. Rightly or wrongly something happening in your back garden will have more profound effect on you than something happening down the street. This is just human nature, a sense of connection with the event itself.

Secondly it happened within a modern State system, not whole lot different to ours. It is easier, again rightly or wrongly, to imagine a genocide happening more easily in a backwards African country with no proper infrastructure, or in a iron fist dictatorship in Russia. But the Nazi government arose within Europe, and the treatment of the Jews at the hands of the Nazi government took place within what we would consider a modern enlightened western state. Therefore something like the Jewish holocaust scares us far more than an African genocide because it shakes our belief that the systems we have set up after the age of enlightenment are supposed to protect us from these types of things.

So it isn't of any great surprise that the Jewish Holocaust is at the forfront of what people in the western world think about when we think of genocide. That is not to say that some organisations don't milk that for what they can get out of it. The "holocaust guilt" is kinda a seperate issue this is interesting in of itself, but should not be confused with holocaust denial. Just because some feel guilt over the holocaust which is manipulated by others doesn't mean the holocaust did not happen. Despite the claims of holocaust deniers it isn't actually those Jewish organisations, such as the state of Israel, that appear to get the most out of holocaust guilt that are responsible for most of the history we know about the holocaust. Most of what we know about the holocaust comes from normal historians, both Christian and Jewish, who have no great motivation beyond the study of history, and who don't gain anything personally from exploiting holocaust guilt. As such they have very little reason to exaggerate the facts and figures to increase this sense of guilt. Of course the bigoted holocaust deniers will claim that any Jewish historian is wide open to abusing his responsibility as a historian. But this is based on a bigoted concept of a Jewish conspiracy, the idea that all Jews, no matter who they are or where they are, are loyal to the wishes of their Jewish masters. I hope no right minded person gives this nonsense (imagine of someone claimed all Christians were loyal first to say the Pope).

Sponge Bob

Wicknight wrote:

Of course the bigoted holocaust deniers will claim that any Jewish historian is wide open to abusing his responsibility as a historian. But this is based on a bigoted concept of a Jewish conspiracy

Holocaust Denial is a very large industry nowadays , it has grown hugely in the past 20 years .

Its an efficient eugenic mechanism to relieve the po white trash of his hard earned minimum wage .

history_buff

Sponge Bob wrote:

Holocaust Denial is a very large industry nowadays , it has grown hugely in the past 20 years .

Its an efficient eugenic mechanism to relieve the po white trash of his hard earned minimum wage .

It could also be argued that the Holocaust has been a very large industry since 1945, making a lot of people very rich, even helping to create a new country by stealing land from an entire people.

Zombrex

history_buff wrote:

It could also be argued that the Holocaust has been a very large industry since 1945, making a lot of people very rich, even helping to create a new country by stealing land from an entire people.

That is argued, all the time (see my post about holocaust guilt, and exploitation of it).

But that doesn't really change Sponge Bob point. "Holocaust guilt" doesn't excuse holocaust denial, or give a valid reason to exist. The way to tacked exploitation of holocaust guilt is not with holocaust denial. Holocaust denial is as equally disgusting as people exploiting the holocaust.

Sponge Bob

history_buff wrote:

It could also be argued that the Holocaust has been a very large industry since 1945, making a lot of people very rich

Dear me, I thought you were going to say

"The Holocaust was a very large industry between 1942 and 1945 making a lot of people very rich "

Industrialising the killing of millions is very good business, I must personally come up with a machine that will eat trailer parks in Georgia and tower blocks in Middlesborough some time .
Have you any idea why , as you said, this 'holocaust industry' you refer to started in 1945 and not in 1938 or in 1941 for example.

purple'n'gold

Its quiet ridiculous to make it a crime for anyone to say that the holocaust or any other crime against humanity ever took place. If people say such things we all have the right to just ignore them. Let them say what they like.

JWAD

Dontico wrote:

there were jews at the conference also, so i wouldnt calll the iranian priminister. he didnt even say were or not he believed in the holocaust. he was just trying to raise the issue that not only jews died during the holocaust. people forget,(very easily i might add), that mostly russians died.

i dont think the iranian priminister would discriminate against anyone for thier religion or were they are from.

:eek: :eek:

I think you should read into that conference and who actually attended. Also have a look into how Ahmenijad words these views of his when organising rallies in his own cities.
Rageh Omaar did a great doco on being in Tehran. Eye opener. BBCFour showed it the other night. Watch out for a repeat on one or two.