Motorway Ethics Question

impr0v

You are driving on the left lane of a motorway at 120 kph, and are approaching three articulated trucks driving closely together in the same lane as you. The trucks are close enough to effectively rule out the option of leapfrogging them, i.e. overtaking one, pulling back into the left lane, then overtaking the next, etc. The trucks appear to be driving at 100 kph.

You look in your rearview mirror as you prepare to overtake the trucks and see a driver coming up behind you in the right-hand lane. The driver is travelling significantly faster than the speed limit, as they are gaining on you at an appreciable rate. There is no impediment to you commencing your overtaking manoeuvre, in that the car is a safe distance behind you, but it's apparent that you will have only fully overtaken the first truck, and perhaps part of the second, by the time the driver closes on you and will be forced to slow to your speed until you pass the third truck.

You are now at the point at which you should commence overtaking the trucks. If you choose to wait until the car in the right hand lane overtakes you (the right hand lane is clear after their car), you will have to brake and drop your speed to that of the trucks, wait for him/her to overtake, and then build your speed up again to overtake.

What do you do?

*Edit* I should perhaps clarify that the issue isn't safety per se, you have perfectly adequate space and time to commence the manoeuvre and the driver in the right hand lane has plenty of time to see you and adjust his speed accordingly, the question is essentially about who should be inconvenienced by slowing down and building their speed again - you, driving at the legal limit, or the other driver, driving above the limit.

Hagar

Wait. Stay alive. Get home safe a couple of minutes late.

drdre

Hagar wrote:

Wait. Stay alive. Get home safe a couple of minutes late.

Yes this is the best option.

311

undertake and bury the three trucks.

dceire

Brake & let the twat by before you overtake!

While we're on the topic of motorway ethics here are two thing i hate and don’t understand why people do it:

1) Travel at a speed well below the 120kph limit in the overtaking lane when there is no reason for doing so. Pull the hell over you git!!!

2) Idiots undertaking, you are f***ing lethal!

BigCon

Hagar wrote:

Wait. Stay alive. Get home safe a couple of minutes late.

Re-read the post, this isn't about safety - he said it was perfectly safe to begin his overtaking manouvere as the approaching car was still way off his tail, just that it would have gained on him before he had overtaken the 3 lorries.

I think I would overtake the lorries so long as the approaching car would not be on my tail straight away. Also I would increase my speed slightly (I know I'm breaking the speed limit now - shoot me) so as not to be holding him up as much...

Guy:Incognito

if the guy coming behind you is going to have to use his brakes to slow down tp avoid you, i'd say wait. If he can avoid you by letting off the accelerator, pull out.

Hagar

BigCon wrote:

Re-read the post, this isn't about safety - he said it was perfectly safe to begin his overtaking manouvere as the approaching car was still way off his tail, just that it would have gained on him before he had overtaken the 3 lorries...

Oh I read the post alright, and you sir are wrong, it is always about safety. What he said was effectively "I have time to pull out in front of a speeding car but not enough time to get back in safely". This amounts to foolishness at best and at worst suicide.

Wishbone Ash

Wait

impr0v wrote:

The trucks appear to be driving at 100 kph

They would be breaking the law as a truck is not permitted to travel at more than 80kph. It is highly unlikely that three trucks, travelling in convoy, would have all three speed limiters (85kph) disconnected.

Guy:Incognito

Theres no such thing as a hypothetical question on Boards, is there?

Hagar

Edited due to broken stupidity filter...

Sandwich

I would overtake without a doubt. Variations of your situation are not so unusual, but I never delay my own progress to facilitate someone else breaking the law. Even if the string of trucks or whatever in the left lane was long, and they were doing 110 and I 120, too bad for the guy behind. Am happy to at least temporarily have him drive legally.

As discussed elsewhere here before, can happen a lot on the M50 these days where you can be doing 60, overtaking cars in the left lane, but driving the speeder behind you who wants to do 100 nuts.

Rudolph Claus

2) Idiots undertaking, you are f***ing lethal!

Only leathal if the person being undertaken is not aware of whats arund/behind them by using their rearview mirror now and then and the side mirror aswell. In which case, the dope being undertaken is Lethal.

If you find yourself getting undertaken rather a lot, i suggest you try using the left lane more often. I travel a particular stretch of motorway daily and never experience being undertaken.

Sandwich

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Wait



They would be breaking the law as a truck is not permitted to travel at more than 80kph. It is highly unlikely that three trucks, travelling in convoy, would have all three speed limiters (85kph) disconnected.

Wow. I knew they had a lower limit but guessed it must be 100. Not sure that I've ever seen one go as slow as 80! Guess they must indeed all have their limiters disconnected.

Stark

A variation of the second one in that I wouldn't drive all the way up to the trucks and brake as soon as I get to them, I'd start letting my foot off the gas as soon as I see the trucks and the car in my mirror. That way I don't have to waste petrol or cause cars behind me to brake.

Seth Brundle

Stekelly wrote:

if the guy coming behind you is going to have to use his brakes to slow down tp avoid you, i'd say wait. If he can avoid you by letting off the accelerator, pull out.

Id either do this or increase my speed (assuming it was safe to do so).
Everyone I know who has an IAM or RoSPA would also agree on getting out of the overtaking manouver asap safely. If the need to hit 130 or 140km/h then so be it.

Hagar wrote:

Oh I read the post alright, and you sir are wrong, it is always about safety. What he said was effectively "I have time to pull out in front of a speeding car but not enough time to get back in safely". This amounts to foolishness at best and at worst suicide.

To overtake three trucks doing 100km/h would take a fair bit of road. If this scenario arose and the car approaching did not slow down then they are not going to slow for anyone! If the car behind cannot let off their throttle a bit then they shouldn't be on the road!

Hagar

But why pull out in front of him?
It would be a different matter if you had already commenced the manoeuvre and were committed. In this scenario you are still safely behind the trucks and haven't yet pulled out. Pulling out to force a speeding driver to slow down is lunacy.

Seth Brundle

My interpretation is that to overtake the trucks would involve about 1km. For the other car to catch up with you by the time you reach this point means that he is quite far back.

Gary ITR

Wait for him to go, it's going to cost no time at all. It's not like I would have to wait for him to overtake the trucks, I could slip in straight behind him and be on my way, without having him up my ass or breaking any speed limits

crosstownk

Brake and wait. That way nobody gets a 'fright'. It's by far the safest option, irrespective of the 'speeding' drivers visibility and reaction time.

Kojak

I'd stay behind the trucks - you have already said that you're travelling at the legal limit, if you go any faster you are breaking the law.

Also even if you said that its safe etc. how do you know that there isn't an obstruction (i.e. oil spillage, gravel on the road) ahead which, at 120kph, would probably cause an accident. I'd take the safer option.

BrianD3

I would wait. But I'd try not to get myself into the situation of needing to brake. A gentle lift off the throttle well in advance of reaching the trucks may slow you down enough for you to smoothly tuck in behind the guy in the overtaking lane. The idea is to time it so you don't have to slow down too much.

Also I think that mixed signals and misplaced courtesy can occur in situations like this. Eg you are in the driving lane and see slow trucks ahead. There is another driver a distance behind in the overtaking lane travelling faster than you. You start slowing down with the aim of tucking in behind him so you can overtake the trucks. He sees whats happening and slows down to "let you out", thinks he's being nice but in fact this messes up your timing and both of ye get frustrated.

edit: even without misplaced courtesy sometimes things don't run smoothly. Lets say you judge that you have enough time to pass the trucks without impeding anyone. But after you've started overtaking the trucks speed up because of a downhill gradient. Or the guy in the overtaking lane speeds up for some reason (gradient, inattention, aggressiveness or whatever) Also IMO it's up to everyone to drive "reasonably". Driving at 140 km/h in the right conditions on an Irish M-way is proabably reasonable enough even if it is breaking the limit. OTOH driving at 400 km/h in your Bugatti Veyron and expecting all other road users for miles ahead to leave the overtaking lane free in case you come along would be completely unreasonable.

littlejukka

the number of saps selecting the seoncd option is a bit worrying. the road is yours to control unless you'd cause the car behind you to slow down or change direction in a hurry. if he wants to do 140 or 150, that's fine, but you have every right to do your thing at 120 and leave him worry about himself. if he flashes the lights as he approaches your bumper, a liberal dose of the middle finger will ease the situation.

dceire

Nuttzy wrote:

Only leathal if the person being undertaken is not aware of whats arund/behind them by using their rearview mirror now and then and the side mirror aswell. In which case, the dope being undertaken is Lethal.

If you find yourself getting undertaken rather a lot, i suggest you try using the left lane more often. I travel a particular stretch of motorway daily and never experience being undertaken.

True enough about the lack of awareness on the person being undertaking’s part, but it still doesn’t change the fact of the illegalness of the manoeuvre.
Its can also be difficult to judge the inside lane when visibility is poor especially during heavy rain.

I haven’t experienced much in the way of undertaking myself but see it quite often, I’m on the m4 from monday to friday. It mostly happens during scenario no 1 which i mentioned & can see why someone might do it but can’t condone it!

littlejukka

i've only been undertaken when i'm waiting behind somebody (or lots of people) in the overtaking lane. it's funny when you beep the horn and people look over all startled because they don't understand that their doing anything wrong. the ignorance of the rules of the road on this country on a mass scale is startling,

C_Breeze

Drop a gear and put the foot down ....

unless you drive an anemic, gutless car - then break and do wat u do best - crawl along neatly to the left please.



edit to put it in a nice manner:

If your car has the grunt, then put you foot down and accelerate to overtake the 3 trucks without causing speedy gonzales to brake, even if it means breaking the speed limit - after you have overtaken the trucks , pull back into the left lane and resume at the speed limit and let Mr. S. Gonzales fly by.

If your car hasnt got the oomph and speedy is flying along, the you should (and I would too) brake, slow down to let him by and then prepare for your earthshattering overtake maneouvre while he/she is off in the distance.

unkel

Agree with several posters but agree most with:

BrianD3 wrote:

I would wait. But I'd try not to get myself into the situation of needing to brake

Yes, it's all about continuously monitoring speed and distance of other road users. That prevents you from "finding" yourself in a situation. I voted for the second option but depending on the situation could have speeded up and overtaken all three trucks before the fast car even got near me. This last option is less likely in the case the trucks are driving at 100km/h but more likely in the case they are driving at 80km/h

Savman

littlejukka wrote:

the number of saps selecting the seoncd option is a bit worrying. the road is yours to control unless you'd cause the car behind you to slow down or change direction in a hurry. if he wants to do 140 or 150, that's fine, but you have every right to do your thing at 120 and leave him worry about himself. if he flashes the lights as he approaches your bumper, a liberal dose of the middle finger will ease the situation.

We're saps why exactly? The road is not yours to control, the vehicle is. If in doubt, you go with the safest option always. In this exact situation, the safest option is to let SPeedy Gonzalez pass you by.

If you pull out and impede the oncoming vehicle to the point they have to slow down, I'm afraid the only sap is the one you see when you look in the mirror. Unless of course you're an undercover traffic cop and it's your job to enforce the ROTR or perhaps you like the idea of being rear-ended @ 140km/hr :rolleyes:

Wait = Live.

cast_iron

I don't really see the big safety issue here. The car coming from behind is a reasonable distance back to allow you to pull out (fully legally) and overtake the trucks at the legal limit.

Yes, the guy behind will have to brake, but I fail to see how this is a big safety problem

John R

cast_iron wrote:

I don't really see the big safety issue here. The car coming from behind is a reasonable distance back to allow you to pull out (fully legally) and overtake the trucks at the legal limit.

Yes, the guy behind will have to brake, but I fail to see how this is a big safety problem

It isn't. As long as there is plenty of time for the approaching car to reduce his speed.

As a previous poster said; if he has to brake to match your speed then stay in the left lane, if there is enough distance for him to comfortably match speed by easing off the accelerator then it is acceptable.

Driving a coach, overtaking slower vehicles (usually trucks) while slowing down faster traffic is a regularly unavoidable scenario. Even though some motorists may not like it, as far as I am concerned it is really not a big deal as long as the following cars are given plenty of time to slow down. If there is a slow convoy on a busy road it is often impossible to get a gap large enough to avoid slowing some cars.

TBH in a decent car I would just accelerate to get past the trucks quicker and then return to cruising speed but it is understandable why many people these days do not want to exceed the limit even for a few seconds. The chance of getting done for overtaking at 130-140kph on a motorway is far higher than for driving at dangerously high speeds on city streets or country lanes.

Wishbone Ash

John R wrote:

Driving a coach, overtaking slower vehicles (usually trucks) while slowing down faster traffic is a regularly unavoidable scenario. Even though some motorists may not like it

If on a motorway, other motorists may not like it as it's illegal now.