Motorway Ethics Question

Drax

cast_iron wrote:

I don't really see the big safety issue here. The car coming from behind is a reasonable distance back to allow you to pull out (fully legally) and overtake the trucks at the legal limit.

Yes, the guy behind will have to brake, but I fail to see how this is a big safety problem

I agree. I dont see a problem with the approaching driver having to brake, assuming of course you have given him sufficient notice by indicating. I would proceed with an overtake. Anyone driven on the continent? I would say the majority of drivers would perform the overtake. I have seen it numerous times where a car will move into the overtaking lane and then an approaching car brakes. The thing is though that drivers are accepting of this. Here, people would start flashing lights, beeping horns etc coz you 'invaded their space'.

Hagar

I drive on the continent and would perform the overtake here but not in Ireland. For two reasons, firstly there will be at least one more lane for the approaching driver to move into and pass me while I'm passing the trucks and secondly the chances of him being a un-qualified provisional driver who shouldn't even be on a motorway are slim, unlike Ireland.

Biro

If he was approaching at a significant speed above yours and there is no one behind him, then just ease back to 100k and let him by, then follow with your overtake. If there are plenty of cars behind him again and it'll mean that you'll be stuck in the left lane till the motorway ends, then provided he isn't close enough to have to brake, then go for it. You can't get annoyed at being behind someone who's doing the speed limit. It's frustrating to be behind someone who does about 8 or 10k below the limit and thinks that your place is behind them.
Doing an indicated 130kph to get by wouldn't be the end of the world either (provided it is safe to do so)... your speedo may be out by 10% anyway, and they almost always over read.

Seth Brundle

Kojak wrote:

you have already said that you're travelling at the legal limit, if you go any faster you are breaking the law.

OMG! :eek:

Kojak wrote:

Also even if you said that its safe etc. how do you know that there isn't an obstruction (i.e. oil spillage, gravel on the road) ahead which, at 120kph, would probably cause an accident. I'd take the safer option.

Meeting an oil spill @ 120km/h will have pretty much the same effect as hitting it at 130 or 140km/h!

cast_iron wrote:

I don't really see the big safety issue here. The car coming from behind is a reasonable distance back to allow you to pull out (fully legally) and overtake the trucks at the legal limit.

Yes, the guy behind will have to brake, but I fail to see how this is a big safety problem

As you say the car is a reasonable distance back (approx 1km). If he needs to brake then he is going waaaayyyy over the speed limit.

Johnny Storm

Floor it, obviously. Otherwise there may be a potentially damaging build-up of carbon deposits in your engine.

BrianD3

cast_iron wrote:

I don't really see the big safety issue here. The car coming from behind is a reasonable distance back to allow you to pull out (fully legally) and overtake the trucks at the legal limit.

Yes, the guy behind will have to brake, but I fail to see how this is a big safety problem

Drax wrote:

I agree. I dont see a problem with the approaching driver having to brake, assuming of course you have given him sufficient notice by indicating.

It mightn't be a big safety issue however it is extremely bad manners to cause vehicles who have priority to brake. Vehicles in the overtaking lane have priority over those wishing to enter the overtaking lane. Do you also think it's OK to merge onto a motorway and cause drivers already on the M-way to brake. Or pull out of a side road onto a main road and cause drivers to brake. Because it's the same principle.

TBH I can't stand driver who pull out in front of vehicles with priority with the attitude of "ah sure can't he brake".

Pherekydes

You are travelling at x KPH. Up ahead a car is overtaking some slower moving traffic. You are travelling faster than he is. You catch up with him before he finishes his overtaking manouvre. What do you do:

1. Slow to his speed until he finishes his manouvre
2. Start flashing him from a long way off, so he aborts his manouvre or speeds up
3. Keep going at the same speed, ramming him off the road

Come on people, get real. If the guy is a reasonable distance behind then you are already executing your overtaking manouvre, unless you like to dive out from behind the trucks at the last second.

Seth Brundle

BrianD3 wrote:

TBH I can't stand driver who pull out in front of vehicles with priority with the attitude of "ah sure can't he brake".

Im the same but in this situation the approaching car is so far behind that he will only be behind you by the time you are at the end of the overtaking manouvre. All he needs to do is lighten up a small bit on the throttle and he will be fine.
He has absolutely no need to brake!


edit: after re-reading the OP I see that you are only 1/2 way through the manouvre. I was unser the impression that you were at the end of the manouvre when the approaching car arrived on your tail!

Gurgle

I voted overtake, but I'd put a tenner on the twat speeding up to tailgate you and start flashing his lights at you.

There are a couple of ethically correct* responses to this:

1) Take your foot off the accelerator, match speeds with the truck and make
it impossible for him to undertake you. This should be accompanied by showing him the birdie. Stay there until you can see him going purple in the face with rage.

2) Stick to your manoever, overtaking as you would if he wasn't there but touch the brake pedal ever so gently with your left foot - just enough to put the brake lights on and scare the shit out of the gob****e tailgating you.

* I said ethically correct, not safe

BrianD3

Slow coach wrote:

You are travelling at x KPH. Up ahead a car is overtaking some slower moving traffic. You are travelling faster than he is. You catch up with him before he finishes his overtaking manouvre. What do you do:

The question posed by the OP seems slightly different. The question is - if you are in the driving lane and can see someone coming up behind in the overtaking lane is it acceptable to then pull out into the overtaking lane KNOWING that you'll cause them to brake before you can get back into the driving lane.

Both cars already in the same lane before they become aware of each other's presence = different scenario.

It should also be said that many drivers have crap observation and are crap at judging speed and distance. Often when drivers pull out in front of other vehicles and impede them this is the main problem. Cars "appear out of nowhere" and so on. :rolleyes:

Seth Brundle

Gurgle wrote:

2) Stick to your manoever, overtaking as you would if he wasn't there but touch the brake pedal ever so gently with your left foot - just enough to put the brake lights on and scare the **** out of the gob****e tailgating you.

There was nevere any suggestion that the driver would tailgate you.

MercMad

They only thing to think about here is one's safety !

The simple fact is that you DO have to consider the guy behind, he could be one of the county's fifty million "L" plate drivers, in the parents 911, for the first time with his foot to the floor whilst smoking dope and getting a BJ !

You simply cannot assume he will A. See you at all, B. Decide to slow down in time or C. Be physically able to slow down !

There are plenty of folk who will decide to drive up your a55 to teach you a lesson for invading their lane, what happens if he/she misjudges all of that ??

What happens if he/she is in a BMW with a stuck open throttle and no brakes !

IMO it is foolish to do anything but let the idiot pass.

Two potentially dangerous situations have also not been taken into account here either,
1.what happens if one of the trucks decide to pull out, causing you to now brake in the fast lane instead of accelerating therefore leaving speedy gonzales even less time and space to react ??
2. ...........anything velse happens .....leaving you like a sitting duck in the path of a high speed vehicle............instead of staying safely in the slow lane !

There is way to much bravado being displayed here, as though this is a test of one's strenght and honour. IMO it is this attitude that causes the most accidents on our roads.

Hang back, its the safest and the most sensible thing to do, and your family will thank you for it when you are still around to eat Christmas Dinner !

Stark

MercMad wrote:

The simple fact is that you DO have to consider the guy behind, he could be one of the county's fifty million "L" plate drivers, in the parents 911, for the first time with his foot to the floor whilst smoking dope and getting a BJ !

But if you don't overtake then as he's passing you, he'll oversteer and careen into you, blowing you off the road :eek: :eek: :eek: Jesus Christ, I think I'll avoid heading home this Christmas.

Gurgle

kbannon wrote:

There was nevere any suggestion that the driver would tailgate you.

Its a long standing tradition in Irish motoring.

If someone pulls out in front of you and doesn't accelerate instantly to the speed you're doing (irrespective of speed limits), you floor it until you're 8 inches behind his bumper and start flashing your lights.

Given the standard of driving in this country, the obviously correct (i.e. safe) answer is to stay behind the trucks until the other guy has gone past. He may not be a total gob****e, but the odds are he is.

unkel

BrianD3 wrote:

it is extremely bad manners to cause vehicles who have priority to brake

As the OP mentioned ethics in the thread title, I think that sums it up nicely. The decision to slow down or overtake should be primarily based on that assessment

LOL @MercMad, but

MercMad wrote:

What happens if he/she is in a BMW with a stuck open throttle and no brakes !

It was proven in court that that's not possible in a BMW

Gurgle wrote:

There are a couple of ethically correct* responses to this:

1) Take your foot off the accelerator, match speeds with the truck and make
it impossible for him to undertake you. This should be accompanied by showing him the birdie. Stay there until you can see him going purple in the face with rage.

2) Stick to your manoever, overtaking as you would if he wasn't there but touch the brake pedal ever so gently with your left foot - just enough to put the brake lights on and scare the shit out of the gob****e tailgating you.[/SIZE]

Sighs :rolleyes:

What if the overtaking driver is a doctor on the way to an emergency?

MercMad

Quote:
Originally Posted by MercMad
What happens if he/she is in a BMW with a stuck open throttle and no brakes !


It was proven in court that that's not possible in a BMW

..........are you telling me that in the aforementioned scenario, whilst you had one leg over the centre console, the other leg somewhere that you didn't care, with your mind being blown from all sides..........that your car would be able to slow down and brake by itself.............because you definitely couldn't do it for a few more seconds !!

Actually ..........make that another few seconds...............

Actually........



( get the point ! )

Seth Brundle

words of experience there Mercmad?

Savman

MercMad wrote:

There is way to much bravado being displayed here, as though this is a test of one's strenght and honour. IMO it is this attitude that causes the most accidents on our roads.

Glad someone else said it.

Biro

This is beginning to go around in circles... So really, when all the possibilities are considered, the best thing to do is to eliminate all potential risks from behind, which leaves the oil slick option above. Best implimentation of that is to pass the 3rd truck, oil-slick yer man, then oil slick the 3rd truck which will jack-knife, and therefore take out yer man if he has regained control, then you won't have any worries of whats behind you to negotiate the next 2 trucks.

Henry Ford III

I think I'd back off and wait until the other car passed.

It'd only take a few seconds.

Stark

Biro wrote:

and therefore take out yer man if he has regained control, then you won't have any worries of whats behind you to negotiate the next 2 trucks.

And you've taken out a potential pot-smoking L-driver in a 911 getting a blowjob, thereby making the motorway a safer place for everyone. They should teach that in advanced driver training.

MercMad

words of experience there Mercmad?

.................no !

I drive an automatic and I keep my right foot over the brake and simply use cruise control !!

Biro

Stark wrote:

And you've taken out a potential pot-smoking L-driver in a 911 getting a blowjob, thereby making the motorway a safer place for everyone. They should teach that in advanced driver training.

You see?!? Everyone's a winner!

TwoShedsJackson

BigCon wrote:

I think I would overtake the lorries so long as the approaching car would not be on my tail straight away. Also I would increase my speed slightly (I know I'm breaking the speed limit now - shoot me) so as not to be holding him up as much...

I can't understand it when people think it's ok to break the speed limit so that some speeding gob****e behind them won't be 'held up'. If I'm doing the limit in an appropriate situation and some guy who wants to break the law gets up behind me, I couldn't give two ****s about whether he's being inconvenienced or not.

If he's a speeder, he's a muppet and if he feels aggrieved by having to sit behind a 'dawdler' who is SHOCK!! HORROR!! driving the legal posted speed limit, then the sooner he's caught and put off the road, the better.

Why people feel obliged to speed up and sacrafice control of their car and the situation they're in to some moron behind them, is beyond me.

unkel

MercMad wrote:

I drive an automatic and I keep my right foot over the brake and simply use cruise control !!

And there was me thinking I'm the only one that does that! Any sign at all something might go wrong and my right foot is hovering right above the brakes

TwoShedsJackson wrote:

If he's a speeder, he's a muppet

Or perhaps that doctor on his way to an emergency. Move out of the way next time, TwoShedsJackson. The "teach them a lesson" attitude is the most dangerous of them all imho. Way worse then speeding...

MercMad

unkel wrote:

And there was me thinking I'm the only one that does that! Any sign at all something might go wrong and my right foot is hovering right above the brakes



Or perhaps that doctor on his way to an emergency. Move out of the way next time, TwoShedsJackson. The "teach them a lesson" attitude is the most dangerous of them all imho. Way worse then speeding...

........I completely agree !

Henry Ford III

If we the ordinary drivers became "have a go" amateur speed enforcers, there would be carnage and road rage on a scale previously not witnessed.

Leave that to the cops to sort. It's what they are paid to do.

TwoShedsJackson

unkel wrote:

And there was me thinking I'm the only one that does that! Any sign at all something might go wrong and my right foot is hovering right above the brakes



Or perhaps that doctor on his way to an emergency. Move out of the way next time, TwoShedsJackson. The "teach them a lesson" attitude is the most dangerous of them all imho. Way worse then speeding...

99 times out of a 100 that you see someone obviously exceeding the speed limit, it's because they're a fool, not a doctor.

I wouldn't move into his way in the first place if I could avoid it, I answered the original question in this thread that I would let him pass me by and overtake the trucks afterwards if it was safe to do so.

I don't have a 'teach them a lesson' attitude to speeders, my attitude is I have a right to drive safely, they don't have a right to exceed the speed limit. If they want to break the law by speeding, obviously I can't stop them, but it's peoples lax approach to speed limits in this country that is causing most of the fatal crashes.

unkel

TwoShedsJackson wrote:

I wouldn't move into his way in the first place if I could avoid it

Apologies, I misinterpreted you there

TwoShedsJackson wrote:

peoples lax approach to speed limits in this country that is causing most of the fatal crashes.

I doubt there has been a single fatal crash on motorways in this country from anyone driving at say 140-150km/h where the circumstances allowed and even if there was, it was most likely caused by someone failing to give right of way to the speeder (i.e. by moving into the path of the speeder)

Some people here should drive on motorways on the continent sometime. They'd learn very quickly how it's done

Vikings

MercMad wrote:

The simple fact is that you DO have to consider the guy behind
...
You simply cannot assume he will A. See you at all, B. Decide to slow down in time or C. Be physically able to slow down !

...

As you said, you do have to consider the guy behind, just like you have to consider every other person who gets behind a wheel at any given time.

Should everyone go by your mentality above of not assuming he will: A. See you at all, B. Decide to slow down in time or C. Be physically able to slow down then of course there would be no accidents at all as nobody would have the courage to drive on the roads at all.

Until I see otherwise, I will assume that the driver in front, behind and beside me is a competent driver. Using this assumption I will drive in a manner which I see fit and feel comfortable in doing.

Not trying to pick on your post entirely here MercMad but the amount of What Ifs? which you put forward amazed me, at any given time while driving you can think of hundreds of what if questions. There is no way to avoid any of them happening either - what if the speeding car goes out of control while you are still in the driving lane and ends up totalling both his and your vehicle? Would it not be better to have overtaken the trucks then?

Everyone will have their own opinion on this, my opinion is that as the OP put it, it would be safe to pull into the overtaking lane, which is what I would do here. Overtake the trucks, slot back into the driving lane and let the speeder go on his merry if slightly delayed way.