Perhaps Minister they are BumbleBee's - Gangland Killing and McDowell

Villain

A bumblebee can sting more than once!

Over two years ago Minister for Justice now Tanaiste Michael McDowell said that the gangland killings of that time were the "the sting of a dying wasp". Now in fairness to the Minister he has stated he was wrong, McDowell said: "I said that a number of years ago and acknowledged in the meantime that was an over-optimistic estimate and I was wrong about that."

Ok so he admits he was wrong but what is he going to do about this increase in violent deaths, I'm not certain of the numbers as they are changing by the day lately, but I believe Murder and gun Crime have increased quite a bit this year.

So perhaps Minister you are dealing with BumbleBee's and not wasps, which means the people who are going around delivering death sentences are not dying off but increasing at a rate which to me is very worrying.

Perhaps McDowell should have a chat with John O'Donoghue about his old idea of Zero Tolerance or any other member of Government who can come up with ideas on how to stop this increase in murders.

Justice and Health imo are the two most important parts of any soceity, without having a good Jutsice or Health system, innocent people needlessly die.

Perhaps Bertie it is time to stop outsourcing these departments to a party to have around 4% support from the electorate and have FF tackle the real issues that this great nation of ours is facing.

Arent a lot of the people being killed "known to the Guards" ie involved in crime and drugs etc with a few awfull exceptions like that plumber.

This might explain the lack of urgency in that it's not affecting Joe public too much.

gandalf

This as far as I am concerned is a deep seated problem. When you have a revolving door policy for "lower level" crimes then you are fostering a disrespect for the law at an early stage amoung alot of the criminal fraternaty. What is needed is a justice system that is set up to severely prosecute to the letter of the law, specifically in crimes against the person, violent robbery, assault, rape and murder.

Its obvious that alot of the people commiting violent crimes are the same names that crop up over and over again. Its about time that a "three strikes and you are out" scenario is introduced in Ireland.

So far Michael McDowell has been great at soundbites, wonderful at leaking information but when it comes to enforcing the law he is all talk and no trousers.

gurramok

34 total murdered in '04, 54 total in '05, 60 total so far this year with 23 gun murders.

4 innocents murdered as part of those 23 this year,
a postmaster
a partygoer
a plumber
a Latvian mother

Now its damn time to act to stop it and stop ignoring problem like they have for the last 10 years

90% gun murders remained unsolved in last 10 years, it can only happen in Ireland.

Btw, the 2 that were killed yesterday live too damn close to me so i know whats it like to live in an under siege community from drug gangs.

Operation Anvil was setup and detected a few of the thugs but guess what, 22 of the 30 that were caught locally via drugs/firearms serious offences are back on the streets thanks to the justice system.(source http://home.eircom.net/content/unison/national/9507602?view=Eircomnet)

Anvil was stopped, last checkpoint in this area was way over a year ago.:mad:

mike65

Tristrame wrote:

Arent a lot of the people being killed "known to the Guards" ie involved in crime and drugs etc with a few awfull exceptions like that plumber.

This might explain the lack of urgency in that it's not affecting Joe public too much.

There are more and more awful exceptions though. The point was made on radio this morning that once upon a time the gunman would have aborted his mission rather than kill a bystander, now anyone is fair game if they get in the way.

I can say that I would'nt live in certain parts of Dublin even if my chances of being shot dead were far smaller than being killed going to work. Whole layers of society are particular locations are going to hell. Not that'll stop plenty of boardsies buying drugs this weekend.

Mike.

mike65

Enda Kenny has just linked the Provos to the killing of Hyland. He says the latter was paying protection money to the former.

Mike.

On the other hand, down here in South Kerry gangland killings are as relevant to the average voter as life on Mars. Not being glib about a serious problem, but unlike something like health it's not an issue for large tracts of the country.

mike65

True but the election will be decided by seats won or lost in Dublin and other urban centres where this sort of thing resonates more.

Mike.

J.S. Pill

gurramok wrote:

Btw, the 2 that were killed yesterday live too damn close to me so i know whats it like to live in an under siege community from drug gangs.

Could you an on the ground perspective on how gangs have these communities under siege. What kind of problems do gangs cause besides shootings I'm sure it goes way beyond the fear of getting shot etc.

While drugs and gangs may cause vast and multi faceted problems for these communities the whole issue is animated by a focus on gun murders - just one aspect. Why is this? And why does this issue seem to be the sole province of TV3 news, the tabloids and Enda Kenny?

Its much easier and much more profitable for the said media outlets to keep focusing on sensational gangland killings rather than dealing with the complex social questions and other less glamorous aspects that these incidents raise.

Enda Kenny must be delighted with the latest murder. When innocent bystanders get caught up in all of this and when its sensationalised beyond belief FG find easy acceptance for their core 'tough on crime' message which, they hope, will translate in some people's heads as 'yis are not safe in yer own homes, some drugged up thug could break into your house and shoot you'.The message 'We will introduce a holistic social and policing policy to address the complex area of drug crime' just doesn't have the same bite.

flogen

We're in a pretty bizarre situation here... McDowell was talking the other day about giving criminals tougher sentences (which I'd agree with in many cases), but we don't have the space to keep people in for longer than we already do.

I'm sure FG are quietly delighted that McDowell's tenure as minister for justice has been plagued by a rise in gangland (be it as a result of his failures or just bad timing) but I'm not really sure if they have any real solutions besides the soundbite of zero tolerance (which means nothing unless implimented properly).
There's also a serious problem in the fact that rehabilitiation is being completely over-looked on every level. I'm not trying to get all pinko-leftie on this; I realise it won't stop these people from killing each other, but it may help the next generation avoid the same spiral of violence by giving them something else to aim for.

mike65

It seems the government have realised banging up defaulters is a massive waste of resouces (don't have link) and a change in policy should free up hundeds of places.

Mike.

Villain

Tristrame I fear you be correct in that some murders aren't given the resources required because the victims were known criminal's. However imo this gives those guilty of these crimes belief they won't be convicted for their crimes which gives them carte blanche to kill again including possible innocent cilivian's like we saw yesterday.

Now as Gandalf has said McDowell has been good at giving soundbites but not acting to solve the issues at hand.

The prison system is overcrowded and little or no rehab is been given. A recent survey by the Institute of Criminology in the UCD showed MORE than a quarter of prisoners find themselves back in jail within just 12 months of being given their freedom and half are back behind bars within just four years of offending.

I dont think any justice system could control these maniacal killing drug lords.
It would be like trying to tell anyone under 25 that there used to be mass unemployment in Ireland.
They just won't listen.
Most of their hench men have probably been in and out of jail learning new tricks from time to time anyway.
Thats why they are known to Gardaí.

I think someone in the media (could have been yer man that judges on your a star) had a fair point when he said that the only way to hit these guys is in the pocket and thats the responsibility of the new middle class who are buying their hippy drugs and going oh yay in their D 4 accents or variations of same at private parties across the land from thursday to Sunday.

Boston

Tristrame wrote:

I think someone in the media (could have been yer man that judges on your a star) had a fair point when he said that the only way to hit these guys is in the pocket and thats the responsibility of the new middle class who are buying their hippy drugs and going oh yay in their D4 accents or variations of same at private parties across the land from thursday to Sunday.

These guys and girls come to Areas like mine, or their supplier, buy their stuff and piss back off to their nice comfortable, safe, communities, far away from where the damage is done. In a very real way I despise these Neo drug users far more then any junkie, because it's so easy for them to close their eyes and pretends that they don't hurt anyone. When the reality is, it's some kid trying to pull himself out of the gutter that gets shot in the face.

To put things into propective, one of the shooting on friday night happened on my way home, the other that night happen maybe half a mile away from my home.

mike65

Someone else got shot tonight 'known to the north central Dublin Garda'.

Mike.

Villain

They don't believe it to be connected, he is another well known criminal though. Apparently its connected to a family feud and the man was shot because he took the child of a rape victim!

This really is getting out of hand.

As far as I can see the illegality of drugs seems to cause more problems than it solves.

Boston

Deleted User wrote:

As far as I can see the illegality of drugs seems to cause more problems than it solves.

Not wanting to get into it, far more people die in Ireland due to Drug use, then shootings. Legalising drugs may take them out of the hands of men with guns, however it would not do anything to curb the devastating effect they have on communities.

gurramok

J.S. Pill wrote:

Could you an on the ground perspective on how gangs have these communities under siege. What kind of problems do gangs cause besides shootings I'm sure it goes way beyond the fear of getting shot etc.

While drugs and gangs may cause vast and multi faceted problems for these communities the whole issue is animated by a focus on gun murders - just one aspect. Why is this? And why does this issue seem to be the sole province of TV3 news, the tabloids and Enda Kenny?

Its much easier and much more profitable for the said media outlets to keep focusing on sensational gangland killings rather than dealing with the complex social questions and other less glamorous aspects that these incidents raise.

Enda Kenny must be delighted with the latest murder. When innocent bystanders get caught up in all of this and when its sensationalised beyond belief FG find easy acceptance for their core 'tough on crime' message which, they hope, will translate in some people's heads as 'yis are not safe in yer own homes, some drugged up thug could break into your house and shoot you'.The message 'We will introduce a holistic social and policing policy to address the complex area of drug crime' just doesn't have the same bite.

With regard to yesterday, i can tell you now that not a single soul locally will give evidence in a court against any gang member responsible, whether its dealing drugs, beaten up somebody or a murder.
If they do, they will catch you and make life miserable, they will start with sending around teenagers in their grip to do their dirty work with low levels of intimidation like stoning the house, try to steal car for joyride, vandalising the car, verbal abuse, hanging around in front of the house leading to burning your bins, then your car and eventually your house etc.
Those same teenagers would be themselves high and drink and drugs, a few houses in a few estates have already been boarded up as families have fled, its not frequent in my estate but it is in the estate next to mine.
If their intimidation wont work, your going to face the 'big boys' coming around doing the same work but with vicious edge, more likely to get beaten up.
God help if you have kids, they will try to hook them on drugs and lead them astray into the next generation of their empire.
I reckon myself, about 60 members of these gangs across several estates with about a dozen locally. They have access to guns and they would not hessitate to use them.
In the last 3 years, some gang members of all ages have died through overdoses, hanged themselves and killed each other(highlighted in media), only bright spot there.
As we live here, if they are out on the road, its best to ignore them and most will ignore you too as long as you dont interfere in their business, people have trained themselves not to look/watch them for obvious reasons if its playing footie, going socialising in the pub, in the chipper even or whatever.
The only way so far that some have been caught is through informers in their ranks, not public help because of fear of their power.
I have never seen a garda on walking patrol ever, there are no frequent patrols, only the odd sighting of a garda car roaming around.
If the place was properly policed over the years, most of the gangs wouldnt have got as powerful as they are now.

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

This really is getting out of hand.

Whats your solution?
Internment for the drug lords?
Seems the only way.

Macy

gurramok wrote:

i can tell you now that not a single soul locally will give evidence in a court against any gang member responsible, whether its dealing drugs, beaten up somebody or a murder.
If they do, they will catch you and make life miserable, they will start with sending around teenagers in their grip to do their dirty work with low levels of intimidation like stoning the house, try to steal car for joyride, vandalising the car, verbal abuse, hanging around in front of the house leading to burning your bins, then your car and eventually your house etc.
Those same teenagers would be themselves high and drink and drugs, a few houses in a few estates have already been boarded up as families have fled, its not frequent in my estate but it is in the estate next to mine.
If their intimidation wont work, your going to face the 'big boys' coming around doing the same work but with vicious edge, more likely to get beaten up.
God help if you have kids, they will try to hook them on drugs and lead them astray into the next generation of their empire.

And McDowells solution to this is to target those that get intimidated, not the intimidators.

Possession of drugs should be decriminalised, and made available on perscription from Doctors. Take the drug market out of the crime gangs. Added advantage of there being no benefit on pushing them to kids either.

More immediate solution would be to flood the area with cops. Overtime doesn't seem to be a problem for the Government when it comes to protecting big business in Mayo, yet many estates are no go areas. Add on all the trainee's at Traffic lights watching people block yellow boxes that could be deployed immediately in these areas, even if it was to do exactly the same thing - stand around street corners.

Villain

Rock Climber wrote:

Whats your solution?
Internment for the drug lords?
Seems the only way.

I don't have a solution,do You?

I do have a vote though and what ever party can draw up the best policy's to tackle the issues in Justice and Health will get my vote next summer.

BTW Internment could a possible solution if it was carried out correctly, people always think of Internment in relation to the North however that wasn't really Interment that was just a method of attacking republican's be they innocent or guilty. Also the big difference would be I wouldn't imagine Internment would have the same effect down here if used on Drug Lords, i.e. an increase in support for the drug Lords as thats what happened up North the IRA were able to use the Internment of innocent Catholics to gain support, but I'm sure you already knew all that.

LostinBlanch

Rock Climber wrote:

Whats your solution?
Internment for the drug lords?
Seems the only way.

It seems like it's getting to be that it might be the only solution, because as it is the situation looks like it can only get exponentially worse. If more innocent people get killed as a result of inaction and handwringing by the state then you'll have loads more people logging on here to moan and then not do anything else about it :rolleyes:

Seriously though, I think that there has to be a two pronged approach to dealing with this. No 1 could be internment of drugs lords and their minions so that we could buy time for a longer term solution. No 2 would be to dramatically increase rehab facilities and possibly legalise all drugs and give them out on perscription or something. Throw in more money at sorting out the social problems in these estates and we might just have a chance. It would take a long time but it's better than the current alternative.

Of course you get people calling for the death penalty, but that doesn't seem to have made any difference in the US etc has it?

Sponge Bob

Officially 5 and unofficially 6

McDowell bleating on the radio today that its BECAUSE the guards are doing their job gangbusting the rate of internecine warfare between villians has risen as they become paranoid about each other .

The highest murder rates in the US of A are in Louisiana and Alabama and Maryland where the rate touches 10 per 100,000 persons which would correspond to an annual rate of 420 per 4.2 Million people to compare with Ireland.

The US average is more like 5.6 per 100,000 or 235 per 4.2 Million people as you can see here

If we are seeing one a day thats 365 per 4.2 Million people . So recently Ireland has been worse than the USA average . The gangs in Ireland are not really being taken off and kept off the streets though so it will get worse before it gets better

The good news of course is that Hollywood will obviously start making more movies here and hiring skangers to play themselves. They won't bother with a cop series, our lot would not come across as intense and professional enough.

Villain

I started a thread on this topic, but my title may be a little misleading, Mod's can you merge and maybe pick a title which suits? Thanks

gandalf

Merged threads.

Sponge Bob

Sponge Bob wrote:

If we are seeing one a day thats 365 per 4.2 Million people . So recently Ireland has been worse than the USA average . The gangs in Ireland are not really being taken off and kept off the streets though so it will get worse before it gets better

It's actually worse than that if you take it that all these have been in Dublin, so the Dub murder rate thats 365 per 1.2m people.

I can see the tourist board add's now.

As someone else said, Internment would be too good for these maniacs-lock them all up.No loss to society as its maniacs attacking other maniacs mostly.
We really do need out own version of Gitmo I think...

We also need to get tough on hard soft recreational drug taking.

Colonel Sanders

agreed, as mcdowell said the rugger bugger D4 head snorting coke is as much to blame for this as the person who pulls the trigger. BUt as another poster pointed out the violence occurs a long way from their homes so they don't give a toss what happens on the north side.

J.S. Pill

gurramok wrote:

With regard to yesterday, i can tell you now that not a single soul locally will give evidence in a court against any gang member responsible, whether its dealing drugs, beaten up somebody or a murder.
If they do, they will catch you and make life miserable, they will start with sending around teenagers in their grip to do their dirty work with low levels of intimidation like stoning the house, try to steal car for joyride, vandalising the car, verbal abuse, hanging around in front of the house leading to burning your bins, then your car and eventually your house etc.
Those same teenagers would be themselves high and drink and drugs, a few houses in a few estates have already been boarded up as families have fled, its not frequent in my estate but it is in the estate next to mine.
If their intimidation wont work, your going to face the 'big boys' coming around doing the same work but with vicious edge, more likely to get beaten up.
God help if you have kids, they will try to hook them on drugs and lead them astray into the next generation of their empire.
I reckon myself, about 60 members of these gangs across several estates with about a dozen locally. They have access to guns and they would not hessitate to use them.
In the last 3 years, some gang members of all ages have died through overdoses, hanged themselves and killed each other(highlighted in media), only bright spot there.
As we live here, if they are out on the road, its best to ignore them and most will ignore you too as long as you dont interfere in their business, people have trained themselves not to look/watch them for obvious reasons if its playing footie, going socialising in the pub, in the chipper even or whatever.
The only way so far that some have been caught is through informers in their ranks, not public help because of fear of their power.
I have never seen a garda on walking patrol ever, there are no frequent patrols, only the odd sighting of a garda car roaming around.
If the place was properly policed over the years, most of the gangs wouldnt have got as powerful as they are now.

Did anyone see RTE news last night? Seemed to me as though the garda 'response' was designed to placate an hysterical public rather than to prevent any reprisals. RTE had the cameras out to film a few garda check points located on what looked like Dorset Street. Now I've seen check-points before with the odd Uzi wielding guard but this time they had guys kitted out in full SWAT gear (or whatever the Irish equivalent is)!! What is all this in aid of? This is the kind of conspicuous gesture thats aimed as much at pensioners in Ballyhaunis as it is at workers returning to the northside in the evening.

As I argued earlier, the whole public discourse centers around shootings and the public's fear of shootings, much less attention is paid to the issues that gurramok outlined above. I think its bizarre and utterly perverse that the state responses seem to be directed more at a public put on edge by the tabloid media and Fine Gael than at the communities most affected by gang.
violence. I came across the following in Sunday's News of the world in relation to the postal worker death in Kilkenny: "...it shows how vulnerable have all become to gun-toting yobs who pull the trigger without a second's thought for the misery they will cause. It reminds us that we are all potential murder victims if we are in the wrong place at the wrong time".

I'd just love to hear how FG doorstep canvassers are telling the people of Ballyhaunis and Monasterevin how they plan to protect them from gun-toting yobs.