Goodison Park Debate

Third_Echelon

Well... This news about the whole Kirkby move proposal has hit the mainstream pages of newspapers and websites. It has been well debated on the various everton sites for the past number of months...

The question: Do we leave Goodison Park for Kirkby?

In my opinion... NO! not Kirkby.

I've been an Everton fan for 21 years since i was about 5 years old. So i was there in the more successful times as well as the not so successful times.

Goodison park... well, my first experience of Goodison was in '90 or '91 i think it was... FA Cup game vs Liverpool at Goodison Park. Finished 4-4. The atmosphere and buzz in the stadium that night is something that i'll never forget as long as i live. There was no looking back from there on in... I was an evertonian..

The first purpose built football stadium in the world... The first stadium with double decker stands... The first stadium with undersoil heating... Staged a world cup semi-final in 1966.. It has some history you have to admit!

Today compared to shiny new, generic-bowl type stadiums it is a bit old looking etc and creaks a bit.. but that's why i love it so much. Fair enough it has some obstructed views and the queues for the pint and hotdog at half time are about 10 minutes long, but who cares? I for one don't give a damn if it takes 2 minutes or 10 minutes or if i can see concrete as a i walk up the stairs instead fancy metal or wood.... Its a football stadium. You are there for 2 hours... not a life-time!

We have been there since 1892 after we left Anfield. Thats a long time and a long history in that area. Upping and leaving just seems wrong to me. Moving to Kirkby is like moving from Dublin City Centre to Sandyford or leopardstown etc... Thats a big distance in my book.. A completely different area.

A few years ago, the kings dock option came up and it didn't go anywhere... I didn't mind that option so much, as its a bloody good location and its in the city centre. Kirkby and Speke in my opinion are just too far away from the fanbase.

I would really love to see Goodison redeveloped. People say its not possible to do because its landlocked between streets of terrace houses.... I think that is just an excuse. Barcelona dug down when they were faced with the same dilema... About 60% of their stands are below street level..

There is some space behind the Park Stand, which is the new (1994) stand behind the one of the goal ends. Between that and some bloody good engineering we could definitely rebuild in the same spot.

One thing that a lot of people seem to be forgetting is that a lot of peoples ashses are buried or spread at goodison park. Dixie Dean (Everton Legend goal scoring machine) i think is under the turf somewhere as well! Do we just sell this space and let them build a shopping centre on it? Somewhere that these poeple loved and wanted to be buried in?

Getting into bed with Tesco as well makes me feel uneasy. Would we own the stadium. Would it be called the 'Tesco Arena'? I can hear the jokes now!

I've been to stade de france, giants stadium, croke park, bernabau in madrid... All great stadiums, great facilities etc, but Goodison Park some reason just has something about it.. I don't know how to explain it.

The atmosphere before the game. Walking up the streets to the ground. The pubs around it, the chipper across the road, the fanzine and t-shirt sellers. That really builds the excitement for me before kick-off.... Can we get this in an industrial estate next to a tesco's with a huge car park? Somehow i dont think so.

Its more than just about a stadium. Its about a loss of identity and tradition.

What would the reaction have been in the GAA world if engineers told them back in the late 80's/early 90's that croke park could not be redeveloped? How would they have felt playing in a generic stadium in a brown-field site somewhere in blanchardstown(just an example)? Perhaps this is a feeling that more people can relate to?

More revenue, more corporate boxes, better facilities, more fans.... All plus points being touted by Bill Kenwright.

Do we really want a load of corporate arseh0les sitting in a box with their prawn sandwiches? More fans in a bigger capacity stadium.. Perhaps a plus point, but really will these new 'fans' be just a bunch of people who don't really support the club and won't be there on a crappy night in December when we are playing luton in the cup?

just look to recent examples of Bolton, Boro and Sunderland. Lifeless stadiums with no atmosphere. The reebok is 5 miles from bolton. I've seen a lot of bolton fans complaining about this on many of their fan sites over the past few years... Juventus are the perfect example of this phenomenon. I fear that this will happen to Everton....

I think that we are better off spending money on the team and youth development, which is currently being done. Our new academy and training facilities are nearly finished... Get it right on the pitch first and then worry about the stadium.

super_furry

I think the only debate is where the stadium should go. Goodison is the most dilapidated Premiership ground I've ever been to and could be in danger of becoming a health and safety problem for Everton.

A groundshare seemed to have been Everton’s preferred choice in the past but that’s out of the question now and with Stanley Park seemingly destined for Liverpool’s new ground, Everton could be left with precious few choices. Whatever happened to the King’s Dock propsoals?

Stky10

I think most LFC fans hope Everton end up in Kirkby...

It seems slightly odd to me. A huge area of that part of the city is going to be demolished and rebuilt. Is there no way that it can be incorporated into that in either its present location or a slightly different one?

OT but... I think the problem with the Juventus ground isn't its location though. Its that the running track places fans further away from the pitch so they feel detacted from the action. Its also way too big compared to their average attendance (its only ever half full), and there is a constant wind blowing around the stadium that makes it feel like an icebox. Thats why their new ground plan was for a new stadium right beside their current location, but of only half the size.

Third_Echelon

super_furry wrote:

I think the only debate is where the stadium should go. Goodison is the most dilapidated Premiership ground I've ever been to and could be in danger of becoming a health and safety problem for Everton.

A groundshare seemed to have been Everton’s preferred choice in the past but that’s out of the question now and with Stanley Park seemingly destined for Liverpool’s new ground, Everton could be left with precious few choices. Whatever happened to the King’s Dock propsoals?

From what I've read about the Dubai guys, they seem to want to get the most profit from their investments. They won't be a sugar daddy abramovich type owners. from what i've read they are in favour/want as a condition of the takeover that a groundshare with Everton goes ahead as they want to half the costs/get as much profit as possible....

With regards to the Kings Dock plan, they couldn't raise the necessary in cash in time of a deadline. They would have got it eventually/soon after, but the piece of land was given by the council to another indoor arena type development. I actually passed this indoor stadium being built on my last trip over in september and it looks class.... When i saw it i realised what a big loss that piece of land was....

Third_Echelon

Stky10 wrote:

I think most LFC fans hope Everton end up in Kirkby...

It seems slightly odd to me. A huge area of that part of the city is going to be demolished and rebuilt. Is there no way that it can be incorporated into that in either its present location or a slightly different one?

OT but... I think the problem with the Juventus ground isn't its location though. Its that the running track places fans further away from the pitch so they feel detacted from the action. Its also way too big compared to their average attendance (its only ever half full), and there is a constant wind blowing around the stadium that makes it feel like an icebox. Thats why their new ground plan was for a new stadium right beside their current location, but of only half the size.

Juventus' stadium is 10 to 15 miles from Turin. Thats the initial hurdle and the most important one.... The running track etc is also a factor, but distance is the main downer for juventus fans...

jesus_thats_gre

Third_Echelon wrote:

The first purpose built football stadium in the world... The first stadium with double decker stands... The first stadium with undersoil heating... Staged a world cup semi-final in 1966.. It has some history you have to admit!

The history it has sort of gives a very clear indication of it age and possibly its condition. As you have said many time, you cannot live in the past. It is ok to certain degree but without a bigger stadium, Everton will probably never be able to genuinely compete with the big boys of the Premier League. If history, nostalgie etc is holding back the club, some hard decisions need to be made.

Regardless of what happens in the end, it needs to be knocked down, and soon.

Third_Echelon wrote:

Today compared to shiny new, generic-bowl type stadiums it is a bit old looking etc and creaks a bit.. but that's why i love it so much. Fair enough it has some obstructed views and the queues for the pint and hotdog at half time are about 10 minutes long, but who cares? I for one don't give a damn if it takes 2 minutes or 10 minutes or if i can see concrete as a i walk up the stairs instead fancy metal or wood.... Its a football stadium. You are there for 2 hours... not a life-time!

Hmm where have I heard you say thing before It is all about the passion of the supporters. Everton and Liverpool both have a very working class following and this what makes the atmosphere in the stadiums. It is about having genuinely passionate supporters who are no fickle about who the team is playing or their form.

Third_Echelon wrote:

I would really love to see Goodison redeveloped. People say its not possible to do because its landlocked between streets of terrace houses.... I think that is just an excuse. Barcelona dug down when they were faced with the same dilema... About 60% of their stands are below street level..

There is some space behind the Park Stand, which is the new (1994) stand behind the one of the goal ends. Between that and some bloody good engineering we could definitely rebuild in the same spot.

I am sure that the people managing the club would prefer to re-develop the existing site but maybe the financial implications simply make it prohibitive. Barcalona are one of the richest clubs in the world and can afford to push the envelope in order to get something done. You got to be just as realistic on this matter as Moyes has to be when signing players. If spending 50% more does not provide a comparative return in the long term, you gotta move onto the next option.

Third_Echelon wrote:

One thing that a lot of people seem to be forgetting is that a lot of peoples ashses are buried or spread at goodison park. Dixie Dean (Everton Legend goal scoring machine) i think is under the turf somewhere as well! Do we just sell this space and let them build a shopping centre on it? Somewhere that these poeple loved and wanted to be buried in?

Hmmm the past again.

Third_Echelon wrote:

Getting into bed with Tesco as well makes me feel uneasy. Would we own the stadium. Would it be called the 'Tesco Arena'? I can hear the jokes now!

Haha the "Tesco Value Stadium" is my personal fav. You can keep the club colours and just stick bean can labels all over the place

Third_Echelon wrote:

I've been to stade de france, giants stadium, croke park, bernabau in madrid... All great stadiums, great facilities etc, but Goodison Park some reason just has something about it.. I don't know how to explain it.

The atmosphere before the game. Walking up the streets to the ground. The pubs around it, the chipper across the road, the fanzine and t-shirt sellers. That really builds the excitement for me before kick-off.... Can we get this in an industrial estate next to a tesco's with a huge car park? Somehow i dont think so.

Hmmm. Personally speaking, nothing will likely compare to watching France V Ireland in the Stade de France. The stadium is incredible. The reason for the atmosphere that night was the passion of the supporters. That is the decisive factor.

Oddly enough, getting the Metro out to the stadium in a relatively run down, industrial part of Paris, was hilariously funny. You have experienced both. The reason Goodison means more is purely down to it being your club and the supports are egging on your team.

Third_Echelon wrote:

What would the reaction have been in the GAA world if engineers told them back in the late 80's/early 90's that croke park could not be redeveloped? How would they have felt playing in a generic stadium in a brown-field site somewhere in blanchardstown(just an example)? Perhaps this is a feeling that more people can relate to?

Lets not bring the most backward/traditional organisation in Europe into this And what is wrong with sticking a stadium out there? Twould have been better than the housing projects that exist in parts of it.

Third_Echelon wrote:

More revenue, more corporate boxes, better facilities, more fans.... All plus points being touted by Bill Kenwright.

Do we really want a load of corporate arseh0les sitting in a box with their prawn sandwiches? More fans in a bigger capacity stadium.. Perhaps a plus point, but really will these new 'fans' be just a bunch of people who don't really support the club and won't be there on a crappy night in December when we are playing luton in the cup?

You need these people whether you like it or not. Remember, the reason why Everton are not the club they used to be is because they do not have the finances to compete. As a club, they are still one of the big clubs but this is purely down to a history of success at the club. It is not down to the stadium.

Third_Echelon wrote:

just look to recent examples of Bolton, Boro and Sunderland. Lifeless stadiums with no atmosphere. The reebok is 5 miles from bolton. I've seen a lot of bolton fans complaining about this on many of their fan sites over the past few years... Juventus are the perfect example of this phenomenon. I fear that this will happen to Everton....

Going back to what I have been saying. While they have the support of the working class in those cities, they do not have the heritage that Everton have. This is one of the benefits of being an establised club with a loyal, passionate support base. You need to exploit it, and fast! Juventus is an extreme example, the most extreme in fact.

Third_Echelon wrote:

I think that we are better off spending money on the team and youth development, which is currently being done. Our new academy and training facilities are nearly finished... Get it right on the pitch first and then worry about the stadium.

Not at all. The situation that Everton was in about 2/3 years back was due to short term planning. You need to realise that you have to ensure the future of the club is looked after. Its about getting a balance.

300 million to redevelop Goodison and virtually nothing for transfers for 10 years or 150 million on a new stadium out of town and 150 million on the team over 10 years.

thebaz

I'm totally in favour of leaving Goodison, unless it can be re-developed which it obviously can't, as this debate has been going on for over 10 years, and staying in Goodison would be the cheapest option.
Money is always in short supply,and we have a chance of a new modern stadium , ok its not the centre of Liverpool, but its not as if its been moved to Birmingham or Manchester, and were obviously getting a good deal with Tesco (the MD is a firm Evertonian !) . Over the 10 years of the debate , we have lost further ground to Arsenal, Man Utd and Liverpool , we need more revenue , so a move is a must. As stated, what other club outlines the clubs stadium proposals to there fans, most such just go ahead and build and don't debate or get the fans input. I'm sorry , but Goodison in its current state is an embarassment, and this represents our best opportunity to expand and get back to where we belong.

Guy:Incognito

On the suject of new stadia in the Liverpool area. Do Liverpool not own a good chunk of the property around the stadium? Could Everton not do somethign similar and expand on the same site.


I dont know if it was dicussed but I always thought Liverpool should have tried to keep anfield on th eexisting sit eby maybe turning it. Surely a new stadium as wide as the current one is long would be big eough?

Anway are Everton in a position to do the same.

Maybe they could build it right next to ours in Stanley park?

kinaldo

Third_Echelon wrote:

Juventus' stadium is 10 to 15 miles from Turin. Thats the initial hurdle and the most important one.... The running track etc is also a factor, but distance is the main downer for juventus fans...

They no longer use the Stadio Delle Alpi. Torino and Juve have moved to the older but newly revamped Stadio Olimpico. It's officially the new home of Torino while Juve will remain there for only two seasons until their own new ground is built. Torino have reserved Delle Alpi for big games as the Olimpico only seats approximately 25k.

Good site with lots of pics and info about their situations here

Third_Echelon

Stekelly wrote:

On the suject of new stadia in the Liverpool area. Do Liverpool not own a good chunk of the property around the stadium? Could Everton not do somethign similar and expand on the same site.


I dont know if it was dicussed but I always thought Liverpool should have tried to keep anfield on th eexisting sit eby maybe turning it. Surely a new stadium as wide as the current one is long would be big eough?

Anway are Everton in a position to do the same.

Maybe they could build it right next to ours in Stanley park?

I don't know if you've been to the area or not, but both stadiums are landlocked by terraced houses around them. Turning the stadiums around is not an option, unless they buy a load of houses and knock them down.... Probably not a bad thing and the area in general is pretty run down, but at the end of the day, its where people live and you can't just expect them to leave... Perhaps some would if they were given the money and the opportunity, but im sure it would cost the clubs a fortune to buy up the land they need....

Third_Echelon

kinaldo wrote:

They no longer use the Stadio Delle Alpi. Torino and Juve have moved to the older but newly revamped Stadio Olimpico. It's officially the new home of Torino while Juve will remain there for only two seasons until their own new ground is built. Torino have reserved Delle Alpi for big games as the Olimpico only seats approximately 25k.

Good site with lots of pics and info about their situations here

yeah i'm aware of their current situation and housing arrangements with Torino... Because of the situations that i mentioned, Juventus have been wise enough to do something about it... But the distance factor will still ultimately remain for them..

Third_Echelon

thebaz wrote:

I'm totally in favour of leaving Goodison, unless it can be re-developed which it obviously can't, as this debate has been going on for over 10 years, and staying in Goodison would be the cheapest option.
Money is always in short supply,and we have a chance of a new modern stadium , ok its not the centre of Liverpool, but its not as if its been moved to Birmingham or Manchester, and were obviously getting a good deal with Tesco (the MD is a firm Evertonian !) . Over the 10 years of the debate , we have lost further ground to Arsenal, Man Utd and Liverpool , we need more revenue , so a move is a must. As stated, what other club outlines the clubs stadium proposals to there fans, most such just go ahead and build and don't debate or get the fans input. I'm sorry , but Goodison in its current state is an embarassment, and this represents our best opportunity to expand and get back to where we belong.

I would love to see Goodison re-developed as the first option. I don't think its an 'embarassment' at all. Second option... move to a new stadium within the current area. I was happy enough with the Kings Dock proposal. I'm just worried that moving to Kirkby isn't going to be good for us.

kinaldo

Third_Echelon wrote:

But the distance factor will still ultimately remain for them..

Practical information about the Delle Alpi
Getting to the stadium:
From Turin's Caselle Airport either take a taxi directly to the stadium or a bus to the city centre. Porta Nuova station has connections with all major Italian cities.
Tram 9 runs from the Porta Nuova station to the Stadio delle Alpi on the northern outskirts of the city by the main ring road. The journey can take up to 30 minutes. The tram stops at Piazza Stampalia, a short walk from the stadium
Bus nr 72 starts at the corner between Via XX Settembre and Via Bertola in the city centre. This journey can take up to 40 minutes. The bus stops right outside the Stadio Delle Alpi. After the games this bus is extremely crowded and full of foreign pickpockets. So my suggestion is to take the Tram instead of the bus.

It's no Newcastle, but doesn't sound too bad. Like getting from Dun Laoghaire to Croke Park.

The Volt

The bottom line is we cant compete with the top clubs at the moment. We fill Goodison to brim week in week out and it's not enough. The ground is a disaster. Anyone who's sat in the Lower Bullens End will agree with me. We have to increase revenue. I do however feel that Kirkby is not the right choice. It's outside the city boundary and so far some fans feel they are about to surrender the city of Liverpool to the Reds, making a fatal mistake that can never be repaired.

Bluetonic

How much would 10,000 buckets of blue paint work out as?

I'd quite happily move back into our old ground once the Reds***e move out.

MrJoeSoap

Third_Echelon wrote:

just look to recent examples of Bolton, Boro and Sunderland. Lifeless stadiums with no atmosphere.

Is it really the stadia that are lifeless and lacking in atmosphere?

Guy:Incognito

Third_Echelon wrote:

I don't know if you've been to the area or not, but both stadiums are landlocked by terraced houses around them. Turning the stadiums around is not an option, unless they buy a load of houses and knock them down.... Probably not a bad thing and the area in general is pretty run down, but at the end of the day, its where people live and you can't just expect them to leave... Perhaps some would if they were given the money and the opportunity, but im sure it would cost the clubs a fortune to buy up the land they need....

I have been a good few times. Which is why I said

Stekelly wrote:

Do Liverpool not own a good chunk of the property around the stadium?

Most of the houses around anfield are already boarded up due to the redevelopment, I was under the ipression they had been bought up by LFC.

thebaz

Third_Echelon wrote:

I would love to see Goodison re-developed as the first option. I don't think its an 'embarassment' at all. Second option... move to a new stadium within the current area. I was happy enough with the Kings Dock proposal. I'm just worried that moving to Kirkby isn't going to be good for us.

For over 10 years we have been discussing this , and still no action -- what other club involves the supperters in the decision -- and i'm sure there are those that think Dalymount Park was not an embarrassment for the 21 century headquarters of soccer in this country !

Third_Echelon

Voltwad wrote:

<snip> It's outside the city boundary and so far some fans feel they are about to surrender the city of Liverpool to the Reds, making a fatal mistake that can never be repaired.

Very true... We cannot leave the city. We are the original team from liverpool. I think as well that we would lose quite a few future supporters. Kids in a few years time would only have one team in the city. It would be a lot easier for them to get to anfield/stanley park... We become the team 'from the next town over'...

Its not a good move for everton.

Third_Echelon

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Is it really the stadia that are lifeless and lacking in atmosphere?

Its a general feeling among the fans of those clubs that since they moved the atmosphere has died...

Roker park back in the day could make some bloody noise no matter if they were in the top flight ot not. Its usually about half full at the stadium of light if they are lucky these days. Last time they were in the premiership it was pretty clear for all to see that there were more empty seat than supporters...

MrJoeSoap

Third_Echelon wrote:

Its a general feeling among the fans of those clubs that since they moved the atmosphere has died...

Can't say the same is true for Southampton, and our stadium is roughly along the same lines of Middlesbrough or Sunderland, though a bit smaller.

Third_Echelon wrote:

Roker park back in the day could make some bloody noise no matter if they were in the top flight ot not. Its usually about half full at the stadium of light if they are lucky these days. Last time they were in the premiership it was pretty clear for all to see that there were more empty seat than supporters...

I would argue that this has little or nothing to do with moving stadium though.

Bluetonic

For anyone who's interested regarding the footprint of Goodison. This being from last weeks AGM.

A following shareholder asked if it was absolutely impossible for us to increase the footprint of Goodison Park to allow a redevelopment. He wondered if it was possible to re-route Walton Lane, directly outside the megastore, to allow us to shift the ground slightly. The chairman replied, saying, “I was personally told, at three meetings, that it’s absolutely impossible to extend the footprint of Goodison Park, by the Council.”

I would reccommend this AGM report be to read by all Evertonains, http://www.toffeeweb.com/season/06-07/comment/colm/061215a.asp
Report by Colm Kavanagh an Arklow based shareholder, a nicer man you would find it hard to meet.

Third_Echelon

Bluetonic wrote:

For anyone who's interested regarding the footprint of Goodison. This being from last weeks AGM.



I would reccommend this AGM report be to read by all Evertonains, http://www.toffeeweb.com/season/06-07/comment/colm/061215a.asp
Report by Colm Kavanagh an Arklow based shareholder, a nicer man you would find it hard to meet.

yeah his articles are pretty good. great website as well....

The Volt

I talked to him in Liverpool Airport on the way back from the Sunderland game in April. He's got a really good insight to the club