satellite letter

mmalaka

matt-dublin wrote:

And again, tv is a luxury. its not a necessity. Recieving a foreign television in ireland again is a luxury.

Getting access to information is not luxury; TV could be considered as a way to get access to information

matt-dublin

Its a luxury, if it wasnt televisions would be provided to everyone.

There will be a general survey done by the overall committee in the new year to seek satisfaction levels and future plans

Eoin

mmalaka wrote:

ok, what about trying to send a msg to the committee through this forum about this; It seems to me that most of us is against this rule; so let show this to the comittee let us make a survey and send the result to the committee...

eoin_s perhaps u as a Moderator can start up such survey??

What do u think??

We can indeed do a poll here to see what people think of putting satellite dishes up. I don't know if would be too indicative of the residents in Charlesland though.

I'd prefer if someone else created a poll, purely for the reason that I am no longer a resident in Charlesland as of a couple of weeks ago, so someone who is more likely to progress the issue should create a new thread (I can't seem to add a poll to this thread).

@MuffinsDa - given that this thread is still quite Charlesland specific, maybe someone else could start a thread in the Legal Discussion Forum, and link to it on this thread?

matt-dublin

I don't think a poll here would be much use as one could argue thats there 1500 abodes in charlesland and probably about 100 members on the charlesland forum here.

as i've said before members of the committee will be taking a survey and im sure that this will be one of the issues raised in the survey.

D2

The following may be helpful...

1. The wording in the Charlesland legal documents is as follows:

"Wireless aerials:
Not to erect any external wirleless or television aerial or a satellite dish or other such like instrument on or at the sold premises."

2. Further, it is against Irish planning law to erect a satellite dish at the front of any house / dwelling:

"No such dish type antenna shall be erected on or forward of the front wall of a house."

"No such dish type antenna shall be erected on the front roof slope of the house or higher than the highest part of the roof of the house"

anniec

I think its a great idea to do a poll but it should be noted that this poll would only be accessed with people having access to the internet and not everyone has! If it is going to a vote I believe everyone in the Park should be contacted

By the way I havent an issue about satelite dishes!

Ru

matt-dublin wrote:

The management have the power to remove the dishes without your concent and the cost of removal will be applied to you fees next year.

Actually they do not have the right to remove anything from a property.

That is simply trespassing. On top of this the satellite dish is the property of BSKYB for 12 months (in new contracts). I don't think any management company is stupid enough to climb up on someone’s house and tamper with the property of a multi billion euro company!!!

All the management company can legally do is send the "offender” legal letter insisting that they take it down or face legal action for breach of contract. As expensive as this may be to the home owner, please remember that the management company work for us and if they start suing their employers for breach of contract, well lets just say, they ain't gonna be around forever.
Do you think that your management company wants this?

A real / serious management company would ask every resident (by mail shot) for their opinion / vote on the issue of satellite dishes. Instead they are wasting their budget on letters threatening us. I do not have a satellite dish, i personally don't want one but i am quite literally surrounded by them and it doesn't bother me.

I discussed this with my management company when i first moved in and wanted a Broadband Antenna because Eircom was not available yet.

That is also where i got most of the above information. I also discussed this with a member of the legal profession. I know my rights and you should be aware of yours. I have tried to contact the management committee and i hit a brick wall. This has left me with little respect. I will pay my fees, i'll keep the exterior of my house tidy, but i will also enjoy my home that i paid a premium for. The management company should stick to cutting the grass and making sure the bins are collected. If they want to control people’s quality of life they should at least ask for a vote. After all, they do work for us.

essentialjc

RU - what a brilliant definitive answer - goodnight!

williamb

Ru,
Echoing other people's comments, you're absolutely right.

Also, I'd suggest finding out how many people are opposed to this satellite dish edict. If it''s more than say 10%, get all their names on a letter telling the management company bluntly, if you proceed with this, we're not paying the management fee next year or any other year, sue us if you like.

Some notes for the uninitiated :-

You can't be evicted for not paying a management fee.

Your house can't be repossessed for not paying a management fee.

(Theoretically mortgage holders could be in breach of their covenant to maintain the house in good order, or whatever the wording was, but if such a case got in front of a judge he'd laugh his head off and award costs against whoever brought it).

A management company fee is a civil debt, and that's all it is. They can pursue it through the courts if it's not paid. This will cost them at least a grand for each unpaid fee.. they may get costs awarded against you, but it's not a guarantee. A lot of judges are very sound and will find a missing comma in their paperwork and award costs against them.

They may be able to report your nonpayment to a credit reporting agency, but check your original purchase contracts. If they don't specifically give themselves that right, they don't have it and any such reportage is illegal under the Data Protection Act.

Basically your tool against management companies is nonpayment of the fees.
Make a name for yourself as a troublesome, hassley estate and they'll just **** off.

And, to repear Ru's comments,management company agents have no rights of trespass (or rights or powers to do anything else) and they have no right to steal yours, or Sky's equipment. Don't let them on your property, call the Guards if they insist on doing something.(In fact, following the Nally case, a good approach might be to go out with a 2 by 4, or a shotgun if available, announcing loudly you think you've seen some travellers on your land.).

None of the above is legal advice, and I do not have a professional relationship with anyone who reads it. By reading to this sentence, you formally acknowledge that you have no professional relationship with me, or any agent, employee or assign of mine, or any employer, employee or contractee of mine who might turn out to be the author who wrote this post.

Eoin

By reading to this sentence, you formally acknowledge that you have no professional relationship with me, or any agent, employee or assign of mine, or any employer, employee or contractee of mine who might turn out to be the author who wrote this post.

I'm confused. How do you know that none of us have any relationship with you just because we read a sentence on a web-site? By reading this sentence, must we cease any possible professional relationship with you (even though we don't know who you are)? How can an agent of yours be the person who might turn out to be the person who wrote this post, when you were the person who wrote the post?

Basically your tool against management companies is nonpayment of the fees.

No, this is the last resort. There is a management committee who should be contacted, and this type of thing can be brought up for discussion with the management company. As I have said already, at the AGM the rep from the management company didn't discount the possibility that this clause can be written out of the lease.

Non-payment of management fees has a real and direct effect on the levels of service that can be provided to your neighbourhood. Whether or not you think the current level of service is adequate or not, is a completely different argument. Why should your neighbours subsidise you because you have an issue with one of the rules you signed up to?

SteM

Ru wrote:

That is simply trespassing. On top of this the satellite dish is the property of BSKYB for 12 months (in new contracts). I don't think any management company is stupid enough to climb up on someone’s house and tamper with the property of a multi billion euro company!!!

It's been done a number of times by managment companies for apartments around the IFSC. A mate was living in a place there and every 6 or 8 months the managment company would send out warning letters and 2 weeks later a cherry picker would arrive and cut down the dishes during the day. The residents would come home to find the dishes stored in part of the car park labeled and ready to be collected if they wanted them. This may be a different situation to the houses in Charlesland but I would imagine there a lot of apartments there too.

Ru

SteM wrote:

It's been done a number of times by managment companies for apartments around the IFSC.

If the contract for the apartments in the IFSC state that the management company reserve the right to remove offending antenna's or satellite dishes, they can do whatever they want. My point is that it does not mention this in the contract i signed, ergo, they can't do sh1t.

I also think i should mention that i do not agree with non-payment.

The bins are collected, the bus runs on time and you have insurance. I just think they should know their place.

SimonMaher

This issue came up before with a friend of mine who sought legal advice. Basically, the situation with apartments and houses is different. With an apartment, you dont "own" the outside walls etc in strict legal terms. Your square footage is the bit inside the walls if that makes sense. Thats why management companies are responsible for wall painting in corridors, outside etc. They have access rights to these areas for "maintenance purposes". This could include taking down dishes.

In a house its different, your legal claim includes the "plot" of your house and unless it is stated in your contract that the management company have access rights to your premises for "maintenance", then they can't come on to your property. The option for the management company in that case is to go down the legal route to compel you to remove it yourself on planning or contractual grounds.

Hope that helps a bit.

Simon

Eoin

Simon Maher wrote:

This issue came up before with a friend of mine who sought legal advice. Basically, the situation with apartments and houses is different. With an apartment, you dont "own" the outside walls etc in strict legal terms. Your square footage is the bit inside the walls if that makes sense. Thats why management companies are responsible for wall painting in corridors, outside etc. They have access rights to these areas for "maintenance purposes". This could include taking down dishes.

In a house its different, your legal claim includes the "plot" of your house and unless it is stated in your contract that the management company have access rights to your premises for "maintenance", then they can't come on to your property. The option for the management company in that case is to go down the legal route to compel you to remove it yourself on planning or contractual grounds.

Hope that helps a bit.

Simon

I know that the apartments and duplexes in Charlesland are under leasehold - not freehold. The houses probably are too, in which case the part of your post I highlighted is applicable too everyone in Charlesland.

daveco23

eoin_s wrote:

I know that the apartments and duplexes in Charlesland are under leasehold - not freehold. The houses probably are too, in which case the part of your post I highlighted is applicable too everyone in Charlesland.

Incorrect - the houses are freehold

Eoin

daveco23 wrote:

Incorrect - the houses are freehold

If that's the case then the points in Ru's and Simon Maher's posts seem to imply that it will be much harder to get the dishes down. Sad as I am, one of the things I was looking forward to the most when we moved from Charlesland was finally being able to get Sky Plus in!

bushy...

Would these yokes be a solution if ye end up having to take down the dishes ? http://www.ddelec.com/digiglobe.htm ?

mmalaka

bushy... wrote:

Would these yokes be a solution if ye end up having to take down the dishes ? http://www.ddelec.com/digiglobe.htm ?

I sent email to them; they only install in Paris area!!!

llocc

Liam81 or Mmalaka have you received any other letters in relation to this? We got one before christmas and haven't heard anything else since?

mmalaka

llocc wrote:

Liam81 or Mmalaka have you received any other letters in relation to this? We got one before christmas and haven't heard anything else since?

Same to me; nothing yet; I hope we will not hear about this anymore; I just keep calling my wife from time to time asking did they remove the Dish yet??:o

John R

bushy... wrote:

Would these yokes be a solution if ye end up having to take down the dishes ? http://www.ddelec.com/digiglobe.htm ?

There are a number of similar hidden satellite dishes available. It is also possible to use a conventional one and hide it inside a box.

You would need a legal expert to check the specifics but it is possible that the ban on satellite reception equipment is against European law.

http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/01/913&format=HTML&aged=1&language=EN&guiLanguage=en

andrewh5

Hi all,

Firstly, if a management company access your property to remove a dish they have done two things:
1/ Trespass a civil offence, but you could call the Gardaí and have them removed.
2/ Criminal damage - by cutting the cable and removing the dish. Again, call the Gardaí and report it as criminal damage - they are obliged to act.

The Irish planning laws and any contract you may have signed do NOT over-rule EU law. Read the following press release from the EU regarding the right of individuals to erect and use satellite dishes:
Services: Commission sets out right to use a satellite dish in the Internal Market

http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/01/913&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en

matt-dublin

andrew unfortunaltly thats not correct, depending on where you live.

with any form of apartment, you are on a leasehold property, thus technically you don't own the building, only an area within the building. which in turn gives a management company the right to remove anything from the outside of the building, including on balconies.

You are correct in the fact that irish laws do not overrule eu laws, but if there is no direct law applying to something in the eu, and there is in a member country, therefore it is a viable law. perfect example, smoking ban.

The gardai cannot do anything, mainly because if you have bought a house and have to pay management agents, you will have had to sign a contract stating you have agreed to all the terms and conditions implied by the management agents, including house rules, which mostly say that satellite dishes are forbidden.

Matt

andrewh5

matt-dublin wrote:

andrew unfortunaltly thats not correct, depending on where you live.

with any form of apartment, you are on a leasehold property, thus technically you don't own the building, only an area within the building. which in turn gives a management company the right to remove anything from the outside of the building, including on balconies.

You are correct in the fact that irish laws do not overrule eu laws, but if there is no direct law applying to something in the eu, and there is in a member country, therefore it is a viable law. perfect example, smoking ban.

The gardai cannot do anything, mainly because if you have bought a house and have to pay management agents, you will have had to sign a contract stating you have agreed to all the terms and conditions implied by the management agents, including house rules, which mostly say that satellite dishes are forbidden.

Matt

What about EU unfair competition laws? The developers are giving NTL exclusive rights to these developments and are failing to give prospective owners any say in the matter. As most developments in Ireland are now going down that route I would say that there are reasonable grounds for suing a developer/agent under the unfair competition laws. Something I feel Sky will do eventually as the level of their subscritions falls off.

mikedragon32

Then that will be up to Sky.

When you bought your house and signed the agreement, you agreed to that also.

You could just put a dish up and see what happens...

Charlie-Bravo

mikedragon32 wrote:

Then that will be up to Sky.

When you bought your house and signed the agreement, you agreed to that also.

You could just put a dish up and see what happens...

I think Andrewh5 is on the right lines but perhaps we need to kick NTL out of the development...as a householder I'm a member of the management company and we wouldn't we be able to change/amend any previous agreement....unfortunately I wouldn't have a clue where to start (perhaps the C' Wood A-Team can step in here?)

woodser

astrofluff wrote:

(perhaps the C' Wood A-Team can step in here?)

Did you not hear General Reid of the W.B.I. (Wyse Bureau of Investigation)caught up with them while they were uncovering another injustice in a small defenceless community and they are in they midst of another refund battle. But never fear I'm sure they will escape once again unscathed.:rolleyes:

matt-dublin

andrewh5 wrote:

What about EU unfair competition laws? The developers are giving NTL exclusive rights to these developments and are failing to give prospective owners any say in the matter. As most developments in Ireland are now going down that route I would say that there are reasonable grounds for suing a developer/agent under the unfair competition laws. Something I feel Sky will do eventually as the level of their subscritions falls off.

not quite, because it is illegal to place a satellite dish on the front of your house by irish planning lad, you have to apply for planning permission.

but its a law thats not really imposed.

on an apartment its a differenct story because you don't actually own any of the exterior walls, and you can't drill a hole in a wall thats not yours.

this doesn't come into anti competitive laws, because sky are offering a different service, satellite/cable.

if they were offering a digital cable service and the developers weren't allowing access then it would be a different story.

i have heard though, of apartment blocks getting 1 satellite dish and having sky rig it so multiple connections can go through it. again it ould have to be approved by members/management company etc etc.

woodser

At Last someone talking sense and keeping to the facts as they are as well as offering the most probable out come.I,ve see apt blocks where sky have shared out the system through one dish just as ntl supply the whole of charlesland with just one mmds mast.however upon enquiring to sky they said that they could do this however the developers and management companies have leased the cabling in the estate to ntl and only one service can run on this cabling.It would mean sky running cabling along all the ducts in the estate and to each house.However I was informed in turn that ntl are bringing their terrestrial service to charlesland and doing away with the mmds everyone signed up at the moment will get a 40 gig box on which they will be able to record programs etc on.

matt-dublin

that sounds pretty good, no more crappy signal loss!!!! (hopefully!)
is there a time frame for this?