Prime Time Tonight

HelterSkelter

I see Prime Time are doing a piece on "Islamic fundamentalism in Ireland" tonight. I only briefly overheard them announcing it on Morning Ireland this morning but it just sounded like a Muslim bashing to me.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/1218/morningireland.html

Frank Grimes

I heard the ad last week, it sounds similar to that Would You Believe programme that was on a few days ago.

Schuhart

I missed the RTE programmes, but from what I heard they were pretty insubstantial. For anyone interested, the recent reports by the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia on Islamophobia are here. They’re not short, and I haven’t read every page. But the quality of the material looks good.

HelterSkelter

I didn't see it myself but there are some articles on it in the Independent today, registration (free) required to read them.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1743702&issue_id=15023

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1743818&issue_id=15023

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1743747&issue_id=15023

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1743747&issue_id=15023

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1743680&issue_id=15023

Frank Grimes

You can stream it from here.

FriarMo

Speaking as a Muslim I’ll say this about the show: It’s a wake up call… The honeymoon we’ve enjoyed with the wider Irish community wasn’t going to last forever and I believe we are rapidly nearing the end of that period of grace.

The ambivalence and denial shown by my co-religionists is shocking. Did they really think that we were immune to the radicalisation which every Muslim population in Europe is suffering to one degree or another? We only have to look across the Irish sea to one of the most radicalized concentration of youths to realise how vulnerable we are to turning to extremism, it’s only a 50 euro one hour flight from London to here. And now because of our complacency that poison has reached us… I felt physically sick listening to that sociopath “Sheikh” Ismail Kotwal, his views echoed the Ku Klux Klan, Nazim and Al Qaeda all wrapped in one and this guy runs a religious institute and lectured young Muslims in a state school?!

I for one will Not sit down quietly and let my family my friends and my society (by all those I mean the Irish people as a whole) be endangered by a fascist interpretation of Islam.

HelterSkelter

FriarMo, how credible are all these claims though? I know plenty of non-Muslim Irish nutcases who think the UK should be bombed back to the stone age but you are always going to get people with extreme points of view from all religions/races/nationalities/walks of life.

Frank Grimes, thanks for that, I will watch the program when I get home tonight.

wes

While I have not seen the show, but if it just one mad man screaming the same crap over again I think the best thing is to marginalise him from the wider Muslim community. I don't think we have much of a problem really, but its best to make sure that these people don't get any kind of foothold. Perhaps protesting or boycotting radical Imams could just such a solution. Show that they are unacceptable here and we don't want anything to do with them.

wes

FriarMo wrote:

The ambivalence and denial shown by my co-religionists is shocking. Did they really think that we were immune to the radicalisation which every Muslim population in Europe is suffering to one degree or another? We only have to look across the Irish sea to one of the most radicalized concentration of youths to realise how vulnerable we are to turning to extremism, it’s only a 50 euro one hour flight from London to here. And now because of our complacency that poison has reached us… I felt physically sick listening to that sociopath “Sheikh” Ismail Kotwal, his views echoed the Ku Klux Klan, Nazim and Al Qaeda all wrapped in one and this guy runs a religious institute and lectured young Muslims in a state school?!

I had a quick look at the show. I am very unhappy (putting it mildly) at what “Sheikh” Ismail Kotwal said on the show. I know the guy and I guess i never paid attention to him, but I never knew about his insane views. Don't know what we can do about it however.

PoleStar

wes wrote:

I had a quick look at the show. I am very unhappy (putting it mildly) at what “Sheikh” Ismail Kotwal said on the show. I know the guy and I guess i never paid attention to him, but I never knew about his insane views. Don't know what we can do about it however.

I know what we can do, we can denounce his views, and we can request that Muslims also denounce his views. Any support for any act of terrorism, whether in the name of Allah and Jihad or political or otherwise, cannot be tolerated. If Muslims state clearly that they do not share his views and that they do not support Osama and Co, then they will probably find that the negative reactions that they tend to go on about and the feelings of lack of integration into Irelan that they too often complain about, would promptly dissappear. As it stands however, when 15% of the Muslim community "respects" al-Qa'ida, then the native Irish population is always gonna view the Muslim with distrust. When 28% believe that terrorism can be justified, then there will always be a sense from the Irish people that Islam is associated with terrorism.

And before you all go jumping down my neck, I am not anti-Muslim, some of my best friends are staunch Muslims, and no I do not think all Muslims are terrorists.

wes

I already reject the mans views. The problem is how to make it heard.

PoleStar

wes wrote:

I already reject the mans views. The problem is how to make it heard.

Well we can bitch and moan about it on here! Thats one good start!

Honestly? I think when it comes up in conversation with any Muslims we must strongly assert our opinions, that committing any form of terrorist act is unnacceptable, and make it clear to our Muslim friends that it is not acceptable either to SUPPORT any form of terrorism.

wes

PoleStar wrote:

Well we can bitch and moan about it on here! Thats one good start!

Honestly? I think when it comes up in conversation with any Muslims we must strongly assert our opinions, that committing any form of terrorist act is unnacceptable, and make it clear to our Muslim friends that it is not acceptable either to SUPPORT any form of terrorism.

Already do this. I post as much on my blog from time to time.

lostexpectation

PoleStar wrote:

Well we can bitch and moan about it on here! Thats one good start!

Honestly? I think when it comes up in conversation with any Muslims we must strongly assert our opinions, that committing any form of terrorist act is unnacceptable, and make it clear to our Muslim friends that it is not acceptable either to SUPPORT any form of terrorism.

yeah and then the americans can keep redefining terrorism to their hearts content and people like the so called outspoken sheik who provides no context can keep spouting bland be nice don't upset the West rubbish.

I see some of the worst hatespeechers were invited over by the TCD hist, I think they need to be raided and kicked out of the country, and yerman here for 25 yrs and no arrest or trial, and the FBI admit they has no evidence of a link between osama and 9/11 although I don't think you can use him as model muslim.

I know theres org and financing coming from here but until as I hear of Irish born and bred muslim going to Iraq I'll get worried.

whats with primetime keep on hooking up with the fearmonger rag that is the indo, only 5 articles!!!

Suff

I am a Muslim (its a religion and not a race!), Living in Ireland for over 11 years now.

Give anyone a platform to speak out and you will always have some Mad, Insane, Controversial, Strong Views regardless of the political/religion/ race of the person who state's them. However that doesnt mean the the general public will accept or de-announce those views depending on their background.

Before you judge the society of that speaker ask yourself is he a voted representative of that society or just a person who got exited given a platform to speak out his views???

People agree/disagree on general daily life issues so when it comes to radical views I dont expect it to be solved or discussed within an hour!

Yes, you will find some people who agree with the views stated by the "Sheikh" and on the other hand also find people who reject it its normal.

I think there are Three main issues to be addressed in this situation:

ONE:

United View
The Islamic society (regardless of its location) should address these issues according to the Islamic law (Quraan, Sun'nah) and agree on the outcome and stand united. The problem we have is the different and un-united views that Islamic scolars hold and to some degree force on people. Is this what Islam teach's??

TWO:

The Education of the Non-Muslims society is VERY important. the Islamic society should make sure that a CLEAR/ SIMPLE understanding of ISLAM is made available to people who would like to read about it. otherwise you get the misconception that Islam is where people pray to an elephent god or that Islam is alien from Christianity and judaism.

THREE:

The Media have been covering stories like this for ages, to them anything shocking sell it to the public!
Sure you need to address certin topics and issue in modren day society however it leading people to genralise...can I say all Irish people are members in the IRA, All German's are Nazi's, All Jews are zionists and All Muslims are terrorist's???

Ofcourse not

I'm sure Irish people have problems when it comes to cliche views like leprechauns, the IRA, Catholic's are strict and have over 10 children and hit their wives or that most Irish men are called either Paddy or Sean!

wes

The problem is that the extremists and nutters are always given a platform. Take Anjem Choudary, he came to Ireland that idiot was on Sky News Ireland. The man thinks he represents Muslims everywhere, and does his best to keep this myth up. We need a way to get our own view out there, and to marginalise people like the Sheik Ismail and Anjem Choudary.

Suff

I agree totally, however we need to unit the Muslim Community in Ireland First!

wes

Suff wrote:

I agree totally, however we need to unit the Muslim Community in Ireland First!

I think we have a better chance of getting elected to the Dail than that one. The community here is so different. I remember the Arab and Pakistani's fighting in the mosque one time, it was nuts. However the old adage of anything worth doing is always going to be hard applys.

HelterSkelter

I watched about half the program last night and I didn't like the slant Prime Time put on it. It came across as a lot of scare mongering to me. As I said earlier there are nutters and people who support terrorism in all communities (I remember Irish people I know being happy about the bombing of Canary Wharf in London by the IRA). I didn't think what “Sheikh” Ismail Kotwal had to say was all that shocking or unexpected. I am an Irish non-Muslim but I was trying to think of it from another point of view so I could understand his position a bit more. If I was living in another country, the US for example, and Ireland was being attacked and occupied by a foreign country you can bet your life I could be coming back here to fight against the foreign forces. So why the hell would Muslims not want to help out in Iraq or other countries where Muslims are being attacked? It seems understandable to me.

wes

HelterSkelter wrote:

I watched about half the program last night and I didn't like the slant Prime Time put on it. It came across as a lot of scare mongering to me. As I said earlier there are nutters and people who support terrorism in all communities (I remember Irish people I know being happy about the bombing of Canary Wharf in London by the IRA). I didn't think what “Sheikh” Ismail Kotwal had to say was all that shocking or unexpected. I am an Irish non-Muslim but I was trying to think of it from another point of view so I could understand his position a bit more. If I was living in another country, the US for example, and Ireland was being attacked and occupied by a foreign country you can bet your life I could be coming back here to fight against the foreign forces. So why the hell would Muslims not want to help out in Iraq or other countries where Muslims are being attacked? It seems understandable to me.

The thing is that he has it so confused. Don't get me wrong, I am no fan of US foreign policy, but they are not the bad guy some Muslims like to make them out to be. Really there only interested in money, and stable democracys are better trading partners. They are not the great satan, or whatever silly name the Jihadists are calling them thsi week.

The best way in my mind to help the Iraqi people is not to join the likes of Al Queada, but to support the legitimate government and reconcilliation between the Sunni's, Shia's and Kurds to create a stable Iraq. The foreign fighters goal is to destabalise Iraq and give Al Queada a base of operations. I think Sheik Ismail is quite frankly completely off his rocker and needs to be rejected by our community.

PoleStar

Suff wrote:

Give anyone a platform to speak out and you will always have some Mad, Insane, Controversial, Strong Views regardless of the political/religion/ race of the person who state's them. However that doesnt mean the the general public will accept or de-announce those views depending on their background.

I dissagree with this. While I can accept that the "spokesperson" type individual may be a particular type of personality with extreme views and not representative of the population as a whole, the facts are that a substantial proportion of "regular" Muslims support al Qa'ida (15%) and a large proportion (28%) feel that terrorism can be justified. These individuals are not the "insane,controversial" indiduals you mention but just a representative of the Muslim community. Or do you perhaps dispute these figures from the show.

Suff wrote:

Sure you need to address certin topics and issue in modren day society however it leading people to genralise...can I say all Irish people are members in the IRA, All German's are Nazi's, All Jews are zionists and All Muslims are terrorist's???
Ofcourse not
I'm sure Irish people have problems when it comes to cliche views like leprechauns, the IRA, Catholic's are strict and have over 10 children and hit their wives or that most Irish men are called either Paddy or Sean!

Again no one is generalising and saying all Muslims are terrorists. Also, cliche views that all Irish are leprechauns etc are not the issue. The issue is that a substantial proportion of the Muslim community in Ireland respect and support terrorists.

wes

PoleStar wrote:

Again no one is generalising and saying all Muslims are terrorists. Also cliche views that all Irish are leprechauns etc are not the issue. The issue is that a substantial proportion of the Muslim community in Ireland respect and support terrorists.

The has bee substantial support for terrorist from the Irish community in the past. Sinn Fein got quite a bit of cash from the US Irish community.

Also terrorism is so widly defined these days that the word has lost all meaning. Remember the US was calling the Taliban "freedom fighters" not all that long ago. Also support for various despots by the "West" is not unheard of. I think this is where the negative opinion comes from.

Suff

wes wrote:

The has bee substantial support for terrorist from the Irish community in the past. Sinn Fein got quite a bit of cash from the US Irish community.Also terrorism is so widly defined these days that the word has lost all meaning. Remember the US was calling the Taliban "freedom fighters" not all that long ago

I agree with you totally.
dont forget that the US sends Billions (cash and in Arms) to Israel for it to fight the palestinian's or Hizballah while if the likes of Syria did it to support Hizballah its called funding terrorism!

Anyway I don't want to go off topic here,

If %15 of the Irish Muslim community support Al-Qaeda so what!
I'm sure you'll find a larger % in the USA with support to the ku klak klan which wy more scary compared to the %15 of a 18,000 Muslims in Ireland !

I really think islamophobia should be addressed

wes

Suff wrote:

I agree with you totally.
dont forget that the US sends Billions (cash and in Arms) to Israel for it to fight the palestinian's or Hizballah while if the likes of Syria did it to support Hizballah its called funding terrorism!

Anyway I don't want to go off topic here,

If %15 of the Irish Muslim community support Al-Qaeda so what!
I'm sure you'll find a larger % in the USA with support to the ku klak klan which wy more scary compared to the %15 of a 18,000 Muslims in Ireland !

I really think islamophobia should be addressed

Well, I would hope that attitude has changed (in the US).

We should concentrate on changing the minds of that 15% of our own, the American's can worry about the KKK. I think that would be the best way to tackle Islamophobia, as well as reaching out to the wider community saying we are tackling the problem. Also, We need to know why they are so favourable to Al Qaeda, when there actions are so contrary to Islamic beliefs.

I think a part of it is the young angry man syndrome looking for something to rebel against, but I find it shocking that apparently people in my age group would have such a different and perverse view on things.

Tackling Islamophonia is a 2 way process, we have to be seen to be tackling our problems and we also need help and acceptance from the wider community.

Suff

wes wrote:

Also, We need to know why they are so favourable to Al Qaeda

Maybe cos they see them as the only group that was able to hit America!

I personally think Al-Qaeda is a puppet for the US, 9/11 was organised and executed by the US in order to pass certin laws in the goverment and invade OIL producing countries!

wes wrote:

Tackling Islamophonia is a 2 way process, we have to be seen to be tackling our problems and we also need help and acceptance from the wider community.

well said

wes

Suff wrote:

Maybe cos they see them as the only group that was able to hit America!

I personally think Al-Qaeda is a puppet for the US, 9/11 was organised and executed by the US in order to pass certin laws in the goverment and invade OIL producing countries!



well said

Okay, hitting the US was a bad thing for the Muslim community as a whole. It shows how fractured and messed up some within it has become. Al Qaeda go against our own rules and would have no trouble killing other Muslims who disagree with them. Actually the people most in danger from Jihadists are Muslims themselves, I think our community need to realise that. Most victims of Jihadists have been Muslims. They care for no one other than themselves.

As for the US gov being being 9/11, that is simply untrue. It was something the Neo-cons used to there advantage, and not to mention the funding of Jihadist in Afghanistan against the Soviets back in the day, have all lead to the proposterous conspiracy theory that the US gov was behind 9/11. It was Al Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden who commited that atrocity.

PoleStar

Suff wrote:

I agree with you totally.
dont forget that the US sends Billions (cash and in Arms) to Israel for it to fight the palestinian's or Hizballah while if the likes of Syria did it to support Hizballah its called funding terrorism!

Anyway I don't want to go off topic here,

If %15 of the Irish Muslim community support Al-Qaeda so what!
I'm sure you'll find a larger % in the USA with support to the ku klak klan which wy more scary compared to the %15 of a 18,000 Muslims in Ireland !

I really think islamophobia should be addressed

I was not adressing issues in Israel or the KluKlux Clan, this is the typical reponse that I would expect from the Muslim community: "so what if we support terrorism, look at the US and look at the other terrorists".

Just because someone else does something wrong, doesn't mean its ok for Muslims to support terrorism. And while I deplore ANY terrorism, this topic arose from opinions on the Prime Time program about Islam.

And I am apalled that you can have an opinion that "15% support al-Qa-ida, so what". It is from this 15% that the future suicide bombers will be "bred" so no, this is totally unacceptable.

And I totally agree, Islamophobia needs to be addressed. However it needs to be addressed from the Muslim community. Islamophobia arises from perceptions that Islam breeds violence and that Muslims support terrorism. While I firmly believe that the true Islam is a religion of peace and love, when a substantial proportion of the Muslim community is seen to respect al-Qa'ida and support terrorism in certain circumstances, well then the negative perceptions will persist. Islamophobia will dissappear entirely when the entire Muslim community, and especially leaders and prominent figures, absolutely and utterly condemn any act of terrorism.

To take this on, why don't we have Christianity-phobia? Perhaps because any leaders of the Church who comment on any act of terrorism committed in the name of "God" such as in the North of Ireland, are quick to condemn and have absolutely no support for any acts of violence in the name of religion. Now before you go on about the Spanish Inquisition and the crusades, please let me remind you that we live in the 21st century and that any Christian you talk to will completely abhor these acts and the fact that these were committed inthe name of Christianity.

Please dont get me wrong, I am not anti-Muslim, in fact I think that if religion gives people a meaning to their lives it is a good thing. However violence must be rejected.

wes

PoleStar wrote:

I was not adressing issues in Israel or the KluKlux Clan, this is the typical reponse that I would expect from the Muslim community: "so what if we support terrorism, look at the US and look at the other terrorists".

Just because someone else does something wrong, doesn't mean its ok for Muslims to support terrorism. And while I deplore ANY terrorism, this topic arose from opinions on the Prime Time program about Islam.

And I am apalled that you can have an opinion that "15% support al-Qa-ida, so what". It is from this 15% that the future suicide bombers will be "bred" so no, this is totally unacceptable.

And I totally agree, Islamophobia needs to be addressed. However it needs to be addressed from the Muslim community. Islamophobia arises from perceptions that Islam breeds violence and that Muslims support terrorism. While I firmly believe that the true Islam is a religion of peace and love, when a substantial proportion of the Muslim community is seen to respect al-Qa'ida and support terrorism in certain circumstances, well then the negative perceptions will persist. Islamophobia will dissappear entirely when the entire Muslim community, and especially leaders and prominent figures, absolutely and utterly condemn any act of terrorism.

To take this on, why don't we have Christianity-phobia? Perhaps because any leaders of the Church who comment on any act of terrorism committed in the name of "God" such as in the North of Ireland, are quick to condemn and have absolutely no support for any acts of violence in the name of religion. Now before you go on about the Spanish Inquisition and the crusades, please let me remind you that we live in the 21st century and that any Christian you talk to will completely abhor these acts and the fact that these were committed inthe name of Christianity.

Please dont get me wrong, I am not anti-Muslim, in fact I think that if religion gives people a meaning to their lives it is a good thing. However violence must be rejected.

Well considering the majority considers themselves Christian in the "West", this would naturally not lead to Christian-a-phobia. There are plenty of Christian wacko's out there in the US who are as bad as some the Jihadists in there views, but that is off topic here.

I think there is no need to bring up ancient history. All one has to do is point out the hypocrisy of some nations, the war in Iraq was an idiotic adventure, the US supporting terror in South America and many other things. Now these are not an excuse for the Muslim community, it just show these things are not unique the Muslim community. I do agree they can not be used as an excuse by the community.

As for Islamophobia, I think the fact that a lot of Muslims are members of ethnic minority groups doesn't help things and the fact that Muslims (as well as other minorities) are discriminated when it comes to jobs and housing. This contributes to the creating a breeding ground for extremism. Give the Muslims and other minorities a fair go at things, and this will help things greatly. However, there must be an effort from within the Muslim community, at the same time to help things. It is a problem that all need to be involed in solving.

Oh and I don't think your Anti-Muslim, those guys are very very easy to spot. You have made some good points to be fair.

Hobbes

guys less of the 9/11 type stuff. k.

Suff

PoleStar wrote:

I was not adressing issues in Israel or the KluKlux Clan, this is the typical reponse that I would expect from the Muslim community: "so what if we support terrorism, look at the US and look at the other terrorists".
Just because someone else does something wrong, doesn't mean its ok for Muslims to support terrorism. And while I deplore ANY terrorism, this topic arose from opinions on the Prime Time program about Islam.

I wasn't making that point!
My point was why do they differe between them? they are all Terrorism! so whay address some and leave others? seems political to me.

PoleStar wrote:

And I am apalled that you can have an opinion that "15% support al-Qa-ida, so what". It is from this 15% that the future suicide bombers will be "bred" so no, this is totally unacceptable.

I'm sure its only emotional support nothing to lead to physical actions...if there was any real threat the muslim community would have dealt with this matter. I remember few years ago (2-3) some group came from the UK to Dublin to be on the Late Late Show, they claim full support to Al-Qaeda and agree with what they stand. now I was in the Masjed on that Friday before the show and the Imam Sheikh Yehya mentioned them and stated that the Islamic Community in Ireland does not support Al-Qeada nor people who affiliate with them.
that I thought was a good message but did anyone hear it ?

PoleStar wrote:

And I totally agree, Islamophobia needs to be addressed. However it needs to be addressed from the Muslim community. Islamophobia arises from perceptions that Islam breeds violence and that Muslims support terrorism. While I firmly believe that the true Islam is a religion of peace and love

I agree

PoleStar wrote:

Islamophobia will dissappear entirely when the entire Muslim community, and especially leaders and prominent figures, absolutely and utterly condemn any act of terrorism.

I think it's more complex than this!

PoleStar wrote:

To take this on, why don't we have Christianity-phobia? Perhaps because any leaders of the Church who comment on any act of terrorism committed in the name of "God" such as in the North of Ireland, are quick to condemn and have absolutely no support for any acts of violence in the name of religion. Now before you go on about the Spanish Inquisition and the crusades, please let me remind you that we live in the 21st century and that any Christian you talk to will completely abhor these acts and the fact that these were committed inthe name of Christianity.

As you stated in regards to Spanish Inquisition and the crusades, Christianity-phobia did exist at that time but now the latest War on terror does seem and viewed by some as a new crusade. [listen to Bush speeches]

PoleStar wrote:

Please dont get me wrong, I am not anti-Muslim, in fact I think that if religion gives people a meaning to their lives it is a good thing. However violence must be rejected.

I know your not and I agree that Violence and hatred should be rejected and condemned.

PoleStar

Suff wrote:

I wasn't making that point!
My point was why do they differe between them? they are all Terrorism! so whay address some and leave others? seems political to me.

I agree, I make no distinction between any groups that commit terrorism. However I was addressing this issue as i find it disturbing that 15% of the Muslim community support a terrorist group.

Suff wrote:

I'm sure its only emotional support nothing to lead to physical actions...if there was any real threat the muslim community would have dealt with this matter.

It is emotional support that breeds these extremists and leads to financial support for these organisations. How do you think the IRA and groups like that get funding from businessmen and get new recruits? It is from these sections that "emotionally support" their cause.

Suff wrote:

As you stated in regards to Spanish Inquisition and the crusades, Christianity-phobia did exist at that time but now the latest War on terror does seem and viewed by some as a new crusade. [listen to Bush speeches]
QUOTE]

While I dont support Bush, I find it ironic that you are calling a war on terror a crusade! Shouldn't even the wider Muslim community support a war against terror, even if it is against Muslim terrorists? And I am not getting political on this, I know the issues between the US are much more complex than this and this is off topic.

And btw I don't think the issue of Islamophobia is more complex than this. Much discrimination arises from fear, and with the Muslim community it is a fear that Islam supports and breeds terrorism. If the community completely denounces any terrorist organisation then this will go along way to integrating the Muslim community and reducing peoples fears. And I think the responsiblity must lie with those prominent leaders of the Muslim community which must openly and totally demonstrate a lack of respect or tolerance or support for al_Qa'ida andany terrorist groups. What really bugs me is comments made by one prominent figure in this country when asked if he respects Osama Bin Laden, he replied something along the lines of "I dont know him personally so I neither respect nor disrespect him"! OMG does that mean because I didnt personally know Hitler, that I can't condemn him!!