Prime Time Tonight

wes

One thing about the "War on Terror", its a ridiculous farce. Iraq had nothing to do with terror, and the US gov constantly try to link the 2. Sadam had them executed whenever they were found. Also Al-Qaeda hated Sadam quite a bit.

Also how do you fight "Terror", its a tactic. The "War on Terror" is as bad as the "War on Drugs" in that they both don't make much sense in how there being fought. Most of the actions taken to fight it, have simply made things worse all round.

InFront

I dont think I could say anything that hasnt been said already, particularly by Suff and wes, who both have convincing ideas.

I thought the Prime Time show was a bit melodramatic to be honest. Its apparent message had the mentality of some seventy year old lady locking herself into her home and boarding up the windows because she's heard of there being robberies in the area. It's a sort of silly paranoia.

Given the similar documentary which preceded it by about a week, I watched that PT show with a reasonable degree of scepticism. Look: there's a lot in it that isn't very shocking at all, and more that is either slanted or misrepresented. Although we are talking about it here now, most people aren't, and to be honest I am relieved. I saw it as being very sensationalist (the "top secret" US government files Prime Time "exclusively accessed", that was completely useless to the documentary as a credible source of information, and yet still incuded) and I think most people copped onto that. I also got the impression that the guy heading up the documentary didnt really seem to have a very deep understanding of the topic, maybe I'm wrong, that's just the impression I got. Either way, the documentary did not live up to its advertised hype.

Whether this documentary is actually anti-islam or not is debatable. However, we can be sure of one thing: it is politicizing Islam. The politicization of Islam is the lovechild of a perverted affair between the media and the extremists. I think Muslims, and Muslim communities, such as ours here, need to claim back our religion from those two conspirators who would wreck and deface it.

wes

InFront wrote:

Whether this documentary is actually anti-islam or not is debatable. However, we can be sure of one thing: it is politicizing Islam. The politicization of Islam is the lovechild of a perverted affair between the media and the extremists. I think Muslims, and Muslim communities, such as ours here, need to claim back our religion from those two conspirators who would wreck and deface it.

I wouldn't call it Anti anything. It just does what the media does and sensationalises everything. That has less to do with Islam and more to do with how the media works. Just look at all the Princess Diana stories and its been years since she died.

FriarMo

wes wrote:

I had a quick look at the show. I am very unhappy (putting it mildly) at what “Sheikh” Ismail Kotwal said on the show. I know the guy and I guess i never paid attention to him, but I never knew about his insane views. Don't know what we can do about it however.

*

Ten Point Proposal to Prevent Extremism from Taking a Hold among Irish Muslims and Muslim Residents

• Educating all Muslim students on having a zero tolerance policy towards violence and intolerance; to respect the ideals stated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and those of the Irish constitution, law, culture and social norms.

• Carefully scrutinizing the current curricula taught to Muslim children and ensuring that no hateful, misogynistic homophobic or extremist material is used


• Cooperating within the NUI in setting up seminaries and degree courses that includes modules on human rights, tolerance and Irish history and culture and making the qualification a requirement for both perspective and existing Imams.


• Publicly naming and shaming imams, preachers and religious teachers who advocate violence, intolerance and the subjugation of women and working within the community to ostracize and isolate such individuals

• Strongly promoting the involvement of Muslims of all ages in long established local charities like St Vincent de Paul, Oxfam, Concern etc; Social clubs including the various heritage conservation societies; Sports clubs(including the GAA) and Irish speaking groups while discouraging the formation of clubs based solely on exclusiveness to the Muslim faith which try to isolate individuals from interacting with the wider community

• Forming a loose coalition of moderate and liberal Muslims in all mosques of different sects and denominations to help influence the current leaderships in place towards a more moderate integration oriented stance

• Building stronger bridges with the wider Irish community founded on tolerance and understanding not just in Dublin and areas where there is a concentration of Muslims, but also in rural towns and villages

• Ensuring Muslim women have an equal footing in the community and are at the highest levels of leadership

• Moving Away from a Muslim community dominated by one ethnicity or cultural background and instead becoming inclusive to the 60+ nationalities, sects, denominations and various groupings

• Better Cooperation with the government towards ensuring that relevant national agencies are better able at working towards the integration of Irish Muslims and eliminating extremism



* It would be ideal if we the Irish Muslim community ourselves took the initiative in implementing the above points instead of having it imposed on us but in my opinion it’s a case of either shaping up or shipping out unfortunately.

lostexpectation

PoleStar wrote:

I was not adressing issues in Israel or the KluKlux Clan, this is the typical reponse that I would expect from the Muslim community: "so what if we support terrorism, look at the US and look at the other terrorists".

Just because someone else does something wrong, doesn't mean its ok for Muslims to support terrorism. And while I deplore ANY terrorism, this topic arose from opinions on the Prime Time program about Islam.

And I am apalled that you can have an opinion that "15% support al-Qa-ida, so what". It is from this 15% that the future suicide bombers will be "bred" so no, this is totally unacceptable.

And I totally agree, Islamophobia needs to be addressed. However it needs to be addressed from the Muslim community. Islamophobia arises from perceptions that Islam breeds violence and that Muslims support terrorism. While I firmly believe that the true Islam is a religion of peace and love, when a substantial proportion of the Muslim community is seen to respect al-Qa'ida and support terrorism in certain circumstances, well then the negative perceptions will persist. Islamophobia will dissappear entirely when the entire Muslim community, and especially leaders and prominent figures, absolutely and utterly condemn any act of terrorism.

To take this on, why don't we have Christianity-phobia? Perhaps because any leaders of the Church who comment on any act of terrorism committed in the name of "God" such as in the North of Ireland, are quick to condemn and have absolutely no support for any acts of violence in the name of religion. Now before you go on about the Spanish Inquisition and the crusades, please let me remind you that we live in the 21st century and that any Christian you talk to will completely abhor these acts and the fact that these were committed inthe name of Christianity.

Please dont get me wrong, I am not anti-Muslim, in fact I think that if religion gives people a meaning to their lives it is a good thing. However violence must be rejected.

hobbes this was political thread from the get go, if you want to move it to humanities/politics do so...

polestar you are so wrong, as I already said if start making empty statements like 'I condemn all terrorism' then you the powerhoses can then just define anything as terrorism and you'll have to condemn that too. Howabout you say I condemn all wars then you have to condemn the American war and their puppets. although I do think these Imans display the old authoritive style of the old catholiscism as discussed in that other thread.

It finds Muslims here largely vote Fianna Fail. jaysus wept

Hobbes

lostexpectation wrote:

hobbes this was political thread from the get go, if you want to move it to humanities/politics do so...

If you want to talk about 9/11 and who did what you have the conspiracy forum.

FriarMo wrote:

Strongly promoting the involvement of Muslims of all ages in long established local charities like

Only thing with that, and this isn't a Muslim thing tbh is that a lot of charities in Ireland are religious in nature. I know of some companies and organizations that do not donate to those charities on those grounds. If the charity is religious in nature I don't see why someone who is not of that religion should be promoted to help in that charity. There are plenty of similar non-denominational ones.

PoleStar

lostexpectation wrote:

polestar you are so wrong, as I already said if start making empty statements like 'I condemn all terrorism' then you the powerhoses can then just define anything as terrorism and you'll have to condemn that too. Howabout you say I condemn all wars then you have to condemn the American war and their puppets. although I do think these Imans display the old authoritive style of the old catholiscism as discussed in that other thread.

Lost I personally condemn all wars although thats my personal opinion and has nothing to do with this discussion which has largely been about the prime time programme and the opinions of Muslims in this country on al-Qa'ida, integration etc.

However I am not wrong sorry, it is very easy to condemn all terrorism because terrorism is a different type of violence to that that occurs in "wars". Terrorist attacks are usually charactised by indiscriminate selection of victims, and are not a direct military action. It is usually committed to make a religious or political point. For example if I set off a bomb in the London underground, the people are innocent, including children who may not even know about religion or politics, and it will have no direct effect on my campaign whatever that may be.

I cannot understand how anyone can possibly say that it is an "empty statement to condemn all terrorism", that is just nonsense.

Now please dont insult my intelligence by asking silly questions well how do you define terrorism, and what about the Americans in Iraq killing innocent people. While I do not personally approve of that war, it is a direct military action. They dont send suicide bombers into schools just to make a point.

HelterSkelter

PoleStar wrote:

...because terrorism is a different type of violence to that that occurs in "wars". Terrorist attacks are usually charactised by indiscriminate selection of victims, and are not a direct military action. It is usually committed to make a religious or political point.

I disagree, the actions of the Israeli army in Lebanon and Palestine constitute terrorism in my book.

PoleStar wrote:

For example if I set off a bomb in the London underground, the people are innocent, including children who may not even know about religion or politics, and it will have no direct effect on my campaign whatever that may be.

In the same way as lots of innocent people have been killed by the Israeli army in Lebannon, innocent people in Iraq by the US army, etc.

PoleStar wrote:

I cannot understand how anyone can possibly say that it is an "empty statement to condemn all terrorism", that is just nonsense.

It is not nonsence because people disagree on what terrorism is exactly. As the famous saying goes, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

HelterSkelter

PoleStar wrote:

What really bugs me is comments made by one prominent figure in this country when asked if he respects Osama Bin Laden, he replied something along the lines of "I dont know him personally so I neither respect nor disrespect him"! OMG does that mean because I didnt personally know Hitler, that I can't condemn him!!

Why do you condemn Osama Bin Laden? There is no proof he was responsible for 9/11. On his wanted page on the FBI site they do not even list 9/11 as one of the crimes he is responsible for. What we know about Bin Laden is what we are told by the same people who told us there were WMD in Iraq.

PoleStar

HelterSkelter wrote:

Why do you condemn Osama Bin Laden? There is no proof he was responsible for 9/11. On his wanted page on the FBI site they do not even list 9/11 as one of the crimes he is responsible for. What we know about Bin Laden is what we are told by the same people who told us there were WMD in Iraq.

OMG are you for real? I really hope you are joking.
Without goin into the details of the terrorist bombings he is indicated in,
he is the founder of al-Qa'ida, which is accepted even by Muslims as a terrorist group. While he was not directly indicted in 9'11, he has certainly personally and openly taken responsibility for it.

Osama Bin Laden openly declared "the ruling to kill the Americans and their allies civilians and military - is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem) and the holy mosque (in Makka) from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, 'and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,' and 'fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah'."

So I think it is quite easy to condemn someone who openly incites people to kill innocent cilivians in the name of God.

Frankly some of the latter replies coming up here are quite frightening and are the type of replies I would expect from the 15% that support terrorism and 28% that think terrorist attacks can be justified in the Muslim community. And as I said in my earlier posts it is exactly these types of opinions that result in Islamophobia.

PoleStar

HelterSkelter wrote:

I disagree, the actions of the Israeli army in Lebanon and Palestine constitute terrorism in my book.


In the same way as lots of innocent people have been killed by the Israeli army in Lebannon, innocent people in Iraq by the US army, etc.

It is not nonsence because people disagree on what terrorism is exactly. As the famous saying goes, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

Again this is untrue.
There is a difference between between war and terrorism and it is quite easy really. Whether a particular war is justified or not is a completely different matter.

Terrorism is not a direct military action, it is done purely to make a political or religious point. The people that usually say the kinda crap that one mans terrosim is anothers freedom fight are the people again as I said before that support terrorism and think it can be justified. I dont want to get into details of the Iraq war and Israel etc, and I certainly can support you in saying that these wars are unjust and illegal. However they are direct military action. If I go over to a school in Iraq though and blow myself up to kill innocent children purely to make a point, then that is quite a different matter.

So now I ask a direct question. Are you one of these people that thinks for example that the attacks on the underground and buses in London, killing innocent people, Muslims included, purely to make a point, can be justified?

HelterSkelter

PoleStar wrote:

Again this is untrue.
There is a difference between between war and terrorism and it is quite easy really. Whether a particular war is justified or not is a completely different matter.

I don't think the distinction between war and terrorism is as clear as you make out.

PoleStar wrote:

Terrorism is not a direct military action, it is done purely to make a political or religious point.

"Terrorism" is generally used by people who don't have the resources to fight a huge country and army. For example Michael Collins's campaign against the British occupation in Ireland. They did not have the resources to fight one of the biggest Empires in the world so they conducted a "terror" campaign. I see the people in Palestine as doing the same thing.

PoleStar wrote:

The people that usually say the kinda crap that one mans terrosim is anothers freedom fight are the people again as I said before that support terrorism and think it can be justified.

Who decides what is terrorism and what is not? That is my real concern.

PoleStar wrote:

I dont want to get into details of the Iraq war and Israel etc, and I certainly can support you in saying that these wars are unjust and illegal. However they are direct military action.

So that makes them ok?

PoleStar wrote:

So now I ask a direct question. Are you one of these people that thinks for example that the attacks on the underground and buses in London, killing innocent people, Muslims included, purely to make a point, can be justified?

No, I don't agree with these attacks, I don't think they are justified. I also don't agree with the 9/11 attacks. Do you think the lives of the people killed in the London tube bombings are more important than the lives of innocent people killed in Palestine/Lebanon/Iraq by the Israeli/US armies?

HelterSkelter

Let me ask you a question PoleStar. Are you Irish? I will assume you are. If Ireland was attacked and taken over by a foreign army, let's say the British for argument sake, what would your stance be? Imagine they had defeated the Irish army and had complete control of the whole country. Would you do anything to fight back? If you knew a group of people organising attacks on British targets would you take part? Would you support them? Or would you stand by and accept the occupation by the British army? If you were living in a foreign country would you come back to Ireland to help with the fight to get the British army out? If people did help out and fight back would you class these people as terrorists?

lostexpectation

PoleStar wrote:

Again this is untrue.
There is a difference between between war and terrorism and it is quite easy really. Whether a particular war is justified or not is a completely different matter.

Terrorism is not a direct military action, it is done purely to make a political or religious point. The people that usually say the kinda crap that one mans terrosim is anothers freedom fight are the people again as I said before that support terrorism and think it can be justified. I dont want to get into details of the Iraq war and Israel etc, and I certainly can support you in saying that these wars are unjust and illegal. However they are direct military action. If I go over to a school in Iraq though and blow myself up to kill innocent children purely to make a point, then that is quite a different matter.

So now I ask a direct question. Are you one of these people that thinks for example that the attacks on the underground and buses in London, killing innocent people, Muslims included, purely to make a point, can be justified?

polestar you clearly support the american invasion of Iraq, as does wes and most probably the sheik so your opinion on what the iman says counts for very little

Hobbes

Helterskelter, Polestar + lostexpectation are warned. Anyone one else want to continue on this line of conversation (ie not the thread subject) do so in another forum or your banned for a week.

As always my comment is not up for debate in this thread.

Stay on topic in the thread.

lostexpectation

what is the topic? the program, which had a Iman who was preaching to a large group of people who admired Bin Laden and we're discussion whether this is an acceptable viewpoint in context? that is the topic and has been our discussion.

Hobbes

Last time I checked polestar and wes were not part of that documentry. If you want to accuse them of something do so in PM's.

Also the documentry wasn't about how terrorism works or who did what to who or US forigen policy.

This thread started off so well, if it continues as it is then I will just lock it.

PoleStar

I apologise if it appears we went off topic.

That certainly wasnt my intention, however examples were given to try and illustrate points related to the original discussion. Including why I think terrorism should be abhorred, in any form, committed by anyone, whether political or religious. This is what the original topic was about, debating the opinions in the documentary, including, the opinions of Muslims on terrorism.

My only point out of all this was that I think if the Muslim community makes an effort to denounce violence then some of the fears from the "native" or "non-Muslim" Irish people, which I actually think are to some degree unfounded, will be substantially reduced.

Unfortunately along the way I somehow have been taken to be pro-American and in support of the war on Iraq, and anti-Muslim. I am not sure how this happened as I certainly did not state at any time that I was against Islam, or a supporter of the war in Iraq. In fact I think this American war is completely un-just, as do the majority of the American population too the last time I checked the opinion polls!

InFront

FriarMo wrote:

*

Ten Point Proposal to Prevent Extremism from Taking a Hold among Irish Muslims and Muslim Residents

Salaam FriarMo, I have a lot of issues with this so called ten point proposal . While the ideas are all very grand and lofty, they are often impractical, fuzzy and pointless in my opinion, even verging on damaging. This kind of empty rhetoric gets us nowhere.

• Educating all Muslim students on having a zero tolerance policy towards violence and intolerance; to respect the ideals stated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and those of the Irish constitution, law, culture and social norms.

from what I gather you are a Muslim yourself, ok so how can you advocate such a method, singling out innocent Muslim children and spelling out T-O-L-E-R-A-N-C-E as one would maybe speak to an Italian tourist looking for directions to theBook of Kells. For goodness sake, anyone who gets an education Muslim or otherwise learns that stuff anyway, why would we Muslims need special education on it?

• Carefully scrutinizing the current curricula taught to Muslim children and ensuring that no hateful, misogynistic homophobic or extremist material is used

Again, my first issue is with the singling out of the Muslim teachers. Why? So maybe Prime Time convinced you there is a problem with extremism in Irish Islam (personally I couldnt agree less), but homophobia? Mysogeny? Are you just picking 'bad stuff' out of thin air?


•

Cooperating within the NUI in setting up seminaries and degree courses that includes modules on human rights, tolerance and Irish history and culture and making the qualification a requirement for both perspective and existing Imams.

I don't know where to begin. Imams are not the be-all and end-all of religious influence. For every potential Imam there to negatively influence a young person you have fathers, brothers, uncles, teachers, clerics, etc. Why on earth one would have to undergo some sort of "rehabilitation education" as you seem to be suggesting is bewildering and, no offence, but also a bit patronising.

• Publicly naming and shaming imams, preachers and religious teachers who advocate violence, intolerance and the subjugation of women and working within the community to ostracize and isolate such individuals

Any policy that aims to ostracize individuals is beyond a joke. So much for rehabilitation.

• Forming a loose coalition of moderate and liberal Muslims in all mosques of different sects and denominations to help influence the current leaderships in place towards a more moderate integration oriented stance

What exactly is a moderate Muslim? Is it a Muslim who kind of believes but also kind of doesn't? What exactly is a liberal Mulsim? Is it a Muslim who loves Allah and also loves getting drunk? I am extremely Muslim, but I am not a Muslim extremist.
I understand what you mean here, and the idea isnt stupid or anything, it just really annoys me when people refer to "Moderate Islam". I don't believe such a thing exists. Being a strong Muslim does not mean you want to blow up a train station.

• Ensuring Muslim women have an equal footing in the community and are at the highest levels of leadership

What has that got to do with extremism?

• Better Cooperation with the government towards ensuring that relevant national agencies are better able at working towards the integration of Irish Muslims and eliminating extremism

What sort of national agencies would these be that would be 'eliminating extremism' here? the department of foreign affairs?

I don't mean to belittle your opinions, and sorry if I seem a bit angry about it. But, like many people, I'm sick to death of this idea that Irish islam (whatever that is) is somehow corrupt or depraved or a menace to society. Some people say that the 'honeymoon period' with Ireland is over. If it is, that's being fuelled largely by of the kind of treatment Islam is getting in the media we are receiving here, both terrestrial and international.

I really believe such measures as you outline, were they to be implemented for some reason, would be antagonistic and alienating towards a lot of Muslims.

Hobbes

Any policy that aims to ostracize individuals is beyond a joke. So much for rehabilitation.

In some cases this is a good idea. You might get person X who will say "Kill all the ....". Them not getting air time or not being taken seriously in the sense that they don't speak for their demographic is a good thing.

What has that got to do with extremism?

I'm curious myself.

Suff

InFront wrote:

What exactly is a moderate Muslim? Is it a Muslim who kind of believes but also kind of doesn't? What exactly is a liberal Mulsim? Is it a Muslim who loves Allah and also loves getting drunk? I am extremely Muslim, but I am not a Muslim extremist.
I understand what you mean here, and the idea isnt stupid or anything, it just really annoys me when people refer to "Moderate Islam". I don't believe such a thing exists. Being a strong Muslim does not mean you want to blow up a train station.

Excellent point, thanks for putting it up

My only concern is that when it comes to receiving advice on how the Muslim community should deal with certine problems its often given from people who know nothing of Islam!

What do you think?....Islam-Education for Non-Muslims is an important element to solve Islamophobia...but where to start?
it is very sad indeed that most people associate Islam with violence, mistreatment of Women.


By the way in a Muslim country you would get as much debate as you would in any westren country when it comes to a topic like this!

FriarMo

As a Muslim who originally came from and was educated in a conservative Arab Muslim country with as many as three Islamic subjects a day (taw7eed fiqh, tajweed, tarteel, hadith, and tafsir to name some) I feel that I might have an inkling when it comes to Islam and its theology and doctrine.

As a person who’s been a part of Muslim minorities in two countries in Europe for years I feel I might have a smidgeon of knowledge when it comes to Muslims in the west.

As a Muslim who’s been living in Ireland for what seems like donkeys years and has been actively involved with the community from day one I feel I might have a slight idea of what the lay of the land is.

I am not an Islamic Scholar nor did I claim to be; I am not a sociologist who has written his dissertation on Muslims in the West nor Did I suggest I was, I am not a Muslim Teachta Dála who has run on a platform to represent Muslims in Ireland nor did I hint I was. What I am is an individual who deeply cares and is sincerely concerned about the future of the Muslim community in Ireland and who most importantly feels like he has a responsibility as an able-bodied able-minded person not only to care for others but try to do something about it.

I am willing and indeed would be glad to sit down and discuss -and if need be- discard every point I mentioned in the proposal that is proven to be counterproductive or useless, and subsequently work together to find ones that are helpful and then implement them but what I am not willing to do is divert my time and effort in verbal jousting matches that never have in their aims to lead to action but only to stroke egos –this might not have been the case with this Primetime post in boards.ie but this is how I perceive it to be. For anyone and everyone willing to work towards a solution and the betterment of our society (Muslim and the wider Irish) feel free to PM me and I will gladly provide my email or phone number and sit down and have an honest open discussion. As to writing in this particular post this is the last you will hear from me. Frankly I feel like we’re going in circles and its just bloody exhausting.

Is mise, le meas/ Salam/ Peace
[snipped]

wes

lostexpectation wrote:

polestar you clearly support the american invasion of Iraq, as does wes and most probably the sheik so your opinion on what the iman says counts for very little

Sorry to go off topic, just want to clear something up. I don't support any war (with the exception of fighting back in self defence). I was just taking an objective look at things rather than the rights and wrong of things. At the end of the day the "foreign fighters" in Iraq are not helping the situation (the original invasion didn't help neither btw) and to relate back to the topic at hand, I believe such people are mislead by unscrupulous men (on both sides) and honestly think there doing the right thing by God. The problem is both sides think there right and that the ends justify the means. At the end of the day a war is just terrorism on a massive scale.

exiztone

Good show, I have to say. But it wasn't really conclusive to anything. I live on South Circular Road myself amidst a huge Muslim community. We have a mosque and a lot of halals, some north African food shops. We've been in this area longer than the Muslim community, back in the 80s there was actually a large Jewish community.

I really don't know what to think. It seems to me that children 10 years younger than me are really the only ones that will get a first hand experience of Irish Muslims. You see, when I went to primary school, there were no pupils from other ethnicities... we had a Welsh kid for a few years, but that was about as extreme as it got. These days though, it's not uncommon to have children whose parents migrated from abroad and are raising the children to be Muslim.

The only Muslim I know/knew was my manager in a shop I worked in. He was a nice guy, but didn't like Bush/Blaire and said they should bomb them When we closed the shop, he went home to his friends who were also Pakistani (and probably also Muslim) and I went home to my family/friends who are Irish (secular/Christian) and I think the shop was the only place where either of us interacted socially with an Irishman and Muslim respectively.

The point I'm trying to make is that people around the country and around the world are hearing about Islamic radicalism and it makes them wince an eyebrow. But like I said before, unless you grew up and became friends in an environment like school, how will you ever get to know your neighbour? I've never spoken to any of the Muslims in my area. You can't exactly knock on a random door and go "Oi, talk to me a bit so I can see you're trustworthy". Know what I mean?

wes

I went to a Christian Brothers school and got on fine. Most of friend aren't Muslim. I agree that sending children to non-denominational schools is a good idea. Mean people get to know one another and how to live together at an early age.

InFront

exiztone wrote:

The point I'm trying to make is that people around the country and around the world are hearing about Islamic radicalism and it makes them wince an eyebrow. But like I said before, unless you grew up and became friends in an environment like school, how will you ever get to know your neighbour? I've never spoken to any of the Muslims in my area. You can't exactly knock on a random door and go "Oi, talk to me a bit so I can see you're trustworthy". Know what I mean?

I can understand your situation to a point I suppose. I grew up in a village in Tipperary fom the age of eight until I was in my early teens. This was at a time when there were zero other Muslims there, let alone Asians or non-catholic white people at all. Well coming from a Pakistani and London-Indian background, that was highly odd you know!

All of my neighbours and schoolfriends were white irish christian children, and although I'm sure my parents regretted this situation for us, It did an awful lot for me on a personal level as regards understanding and accepting religious and cultural difference.
So, looking back on that now, I am glad that I was temporarily immersed in that sort of community, at least for a few years until my parents moved to work in Dublin. You are similarly 'immersed' with the Muslim community, and now is your chance to get to understand it.
I am quite familiar with your area, and would suggest that you will only gain from engaging with the great Muslim and Asian and African neighbours that you have there.
As you said, that area was once home to many of Dublin's Jewish community, I believe it was called "Little Jerusalem". Hopefully, the good relationships that flourished there when it was known as a Jewish area, will be continued into the fututre with all ethnic minorities.
So don't feel bad or embarassed about starting a conversation with one of your Muslim, or just non-irish neighbours. Islam, as you may know, places great emphasis on the community, and while not everyone will be so enthusiastics (people are people) you can be sure that you will always meet people who will be keen to get to know their Irish neighbours too.

Maybe start by frequenting some of the local shops, now and again, and encourage others to join local initiatives with you perhaps? there are a hundred ways to get to know your neighbours!

rathmaniacal

As a non-Muslim looking at this discussion, I have the following to say: the behavior of Muslims in Ireland has been generally wonderful and I can honestly say that I have niether seen nor heard anything negative regarding the Muslim community in general here. I remember around the time of the Danish incident, there was some protest which struck me as being exceptionally polite and well run- if that's the way things are going to be, we have very little to worry about. As far as extremism goes, I confess to being worried about it and I am sure quite a few Muslims are too. Not all of this kind of concern can be brushed aside as Islamphobia (though I am sure some of it can). In the light of world events and the generally poisonous climate created by 911 and Iraq, it is not crazy to wonder if some Muslims in Ireland might be angry enough to be caught up in extremism. It would not surprise me if a few are, although my experience of Irish Muslims (calm, friendly and reasonable) leads me to believe that the problem, if indeed there is one, is probably not yet in an advanced state. I guess one major thing that would help is to point out that the Muslim community in Ireland (ie. Irish people) are as Irish as the rest of us. I guess another thing that would help would be to recognize that concern over extremism is not some kind of sly way to hit out at Muslims- it's just that we saw some messed up stuff in other places and we don't want the same thing to happen here. It is in the interests of the Muslim community, as an integeral part of Ireland, to help prevent radicalization. We have a pretty sweet set-up here in Ireland- there is freedom to worship whatever way we wish, there is realtive prosperity and Muslims are pretty well regarded by most people. Radicalization would totally mess that up and would be an excuse for ignorant people to try and tarnish an entire community because of a few people.