Proffesional programmers, what do you know?

The Corinthian

Khannie wrote:

Not so at all. Knowing perl (or some other scripting language) makes life for progammers easier on a variety of fronts.

I certainly don't disagree that knowing a scripting language will make life for progammers easier on a variety of fronts, only the choice of Perl. If you're starting out now you're better off learning a language which is more up to date or current, such as PHP or Python, rather than a language which is realistically only used by programmers who learned it when it was current and colleges.

Khannie

The Corinthian wrote:

If you're starting out now you're better off learning a language which is more up to date or current, such as PHP or Python

I agree to an extent. The sheer amount of perl libraries out there do still make it a good choice. Python does seem to be the real up-and-comer for general purpose scripting though. It's on my list of "look at" items.

PHP is a must for modern server side web coding though, definitely.

Colin Mac

To the OP, After the launguages you are studying at the moment, I'd recommend you move onto Python next, it's very good for graphics.

markf909

This is an interesting thread.

I have 4 years very solid experience in J2SE and C++ (ISO standard, not MFC) from the work carried out out in my PhD.
I also have used a lot of Python and Bash/Sed for setting up automated test harnesses for my software.

Furthermore I have also have experience in XSLT and the JAXP and Aspect Oriented Programming. I am also quite comfortable with CaML.

I feel that at this stage obviously, the core concepts are there and a new language/paradigm is something that can be learned quite quickly.

My real question is how industry views my experience and skills?
I have only recently completed my Viva, so I am at a junction, do I continue down the academic path or try my hand in industry.
A cursory look at the employment sites, shows a very large demand for Java developers (J2EE) but most seem to look for 3-4+ years industry experience which clearly I do not have.

Anyone got any advice/opinions?

BostonB

A lot of ads are posted by HR people and agencies and are a little "creative" with the truth. So the requirements are not always set in stone.

bonkey

Most places want someone with loads of experience, but generally don't want to pay for it, nor are they willing to wait the uncertain amount of time it often takes to find the right candidate with the right skills.

End result is that they are forced to "settle" for less than what they asked for. Strangely enough...what they settle for is often much closer to what they actually needed.

monosharp

DaSilva wrote:

I study Java, Visual Basic, and Assembly 80x85 in College. And in my free time I'm doing C. I picked C because it's very popular, and somewhere inbetween Assembly and Java in terms of language level. I like them all and have fun learning new stuff in each, (even VB despite the knocking it gets).

I'm not working in the big bad world, i was last yr but back at college again finishing off my degree.

My advice, take it or leave it and some people might disagree but anyways ...

Drop Visual Basic like that crazy ex that just WON'T leave you alone. I'm serious, do it for your studies but after that forget EVERYTHING you learned about VB. It might look good on a CV and you might get work out of it but it will only hurt your programming skills. I can't even count the number of bad habits and the laziness VB gave me. VB is a blight on this earth and why any college uses it baffles me. Fair enough you can get work with it but for a student to try to learn programming and be subjected to Visual Basic is just not right. You'll not only learn nothing from VB, you'll have to unlearn stuff to learn proper programming.

Your DEFINATELY going the right route with C, i can't stress that enough. Forget about other languages for the moment in your spare time, concentrate entirely on C and C++. I'm not saying other languages like python etc are bad, i actually REALLY like python. But for learning (and i'm still learning myself) C/C++ is the holy grail. When you know C and know it well, learning other languages* becomes MUCH easier.

* Note: Obvious exceptions are languages like PROLOG etc. But C will still be a HUGE help here. And anyways most of these other languages are next to useless. Die Prolog Die!

Seriously, i know what its like being a student and having OOP stuffed down your throat. (oop, what they don't teach you is that oop is NOT the best solution for all problems). You feel you need to know language x and language y is meant to rock etc etc . Ignore them, get a really good base in C.

edit: Opps, forgot to mention. I'm going to assume all your work and development has being on Windows. Its probably not really of much benefit to you for jobs etc in the majority of cases but install linux and learn your way around a real operating system. Learn about makefiles etc. You'll be better off for it.

monosharp

Ginger wrote:

I would start learning some of the .NET languages..

Anyone remember J++ ? :rolleyes:

No ?

If you know Java, C# is a non-issue. Don't get stuck in the Microsoft trap, good to know but don't base yourself on it.

maceocc2

What ye have to really remember is that if you can get to grips with at least one programming language in college you will probably get the hang of another very quickly for instance I did mainly Java, C++ and my personal favorite plain old C, started a design job about a year ago in which we use Perl and python.
So if I where you i'd have fun with Java while your in college and you should be able to pick up others as you go along.

Evil Phil

I've seen Java coders fix c# coders problems on this forum, and vice-versa. That's probably down to experience as well as the two languages being so similar.

If you're learning VB then learn C# instead. It does the same thing, all .Net languages do, but its skillset will transfer a lot easier plus it doesn't have any of the stigma left over from classic VB.

I do remember J++ in fact I actually evaluated it in one job but choose the Microsoft SDK for Java instead.

monosharp

Evil Phil wrote:

I do remember J++ in fact I actually evaluated it in one job but choose the Microsoft SDK for Java instead.

Fair enough, each to their own.

Evil Phil

I didn't say I remembered it fondly

Mutant_Fruit

Evil Phil wrote:

I've seen Java coders fix c# coders problems on this forum, and vice-versa. That's probably down to experience as well as the two languages being so similar.

Usually because it's a logic error in the program You can debug a logic error much more easily than a code error in a language you're not familiar with.

DaSilva

Tons of information here so far, is great. Someone mentioned installing and getting used too Linux, have done just that recently. Installed and started using Slackware, then decided to give Ubuntu a try. Finding things I really like about Linux, and lots of things I hate (i.e. every distro having its own idea of directory structure).

The more and more I learn these days the more I realise that I'm over the programming learning step, and into the API or Library learning step. It's fun learning though, as you can see some real productive results, but it's a monstrous task.

My question is, is that what you guys are talking about when you say "its easy to learn a language difficult to master it."? Learning the library's? Aside from learning the concept's of each language.

From the replies I'm seeing about what languages to learn, it seems clear and slightly disheartening that not only are there a monstrous amount of programming languages, but they are also used

Think for the immediate future the things I will look into are, Windows API, openGL or Directx, Linux API/Kernel, Python (purely for scripting for the moment) and PHP. Amongst the current areas which are, C, Java, Assembly.

I've kind of let VB slip, and by that I don't mean falling behind the class, I'm still a mile ahead, but the lecturer seems only interested at the moment in teaching us the WYSIWYG part of the IDE, which was fun when I was first learning programming but is now dull.

For some reason this year something woke up in me and I have a thirst for knowledge, glad I found programming as it's certainly not lacking in size.

p.s. Bonkey, I now use a spell checker

monosharp

DaSilva wrote:

Tons of information here so far, is great. Someone mentioned installing and getting used too Linux, have done just that recently. Installed and started using Slackware, then decided to give Ubuntu a try. Finding things I really like about Linux, and lots of things I hate (i.e. every distro having its own idea of directory structure).

Even though i started off in Linux with slackware, i wouldn't recommend it to any beginners unless your REALLY interested in your system and seeing how it all works. And i mean REALLY interested.

What do you mean by every distro having its own directory structure ? Linux follows the Unix directory structure, i only know of one distro that doesn't.

DaSilva

monosharp wrote:

Even though i started off in Linux with slackware, i wouldn't recommend it to any beginners unless your REALLY interested in your system and seeing how it all works. And i mean REALLY interested.

Slack mightn't have been the best choice, I am really interested in how it works though. I didn't know much about different distributions, so I choose slack because I heard it wasn't dumbed down. When I first installed it, I hadn't a clue what I was doing, by the end of the installation I had learned a good bit. Decided to give Ubuntu a go now, and it's nice, but not for me, as I installed Linux, to learn Linux. Ubuntu seems to be more aimed at getting things done, if you will.

monosharp wrote:

What do you mean by every distro having its own directory structure ? Linux follows the Unix directory structure, i only know of one distro that doesn't.

My bad wording on that one. I can't remember any specific examples, but what I was trying to say was, certain things were different, for example, this probably isn't the case, but fstab.conf would be in a different folder on Slack as it was on Ubuntu.

Robin Parmar

There's a lot more to being a professional programmer than picking a language or six. This thread has encouraged me to write up my thoughts in an article , which I hope encourages further comment.

jimmycrackcorm

amen wrote:

ohh languages that I know
PL/1, DB2, JCL, PASCAL, TURBO PASCAL, C, C++,VB, VB.NET, C#, ASP, ASP.NET,
SQL, JScript, JAVA(a bit), PERL(okish), PHP, Some assemebly 8086 thats about it

When I see this stuff on incoming Cv's I think of that old phrase "Jack of all trades, master of none".

It really boils down to two paths Java or dot net and associated web parts such as asp.net for .NET.

I would forget about doing C/C++. Only proprietary / technical development is done now in C. At this stage I'd almost lump it in the same category as Cobol - still an important language with a lot of development going on but it won't count for much in your career choice availability in 15-20 years time.

amen

you know you could be right but since I've been working as a programmer for 14 years I've bound to have worked in some different environments

For that vast majority of jobs you don't have to be a super duper expert master knowing every in and out of the language. As long you know a reasonably 70-80% and know where to find out the other info you should be fine.

Knowing other languges never hurt at least it shows you can learn and are adaptable. Some programmers get stuck doing C++ for 20 years, don't know anything about the internet, database programming, gui design etc and these are the so called masters.

If you look at the languages listed you might see a progression from MainFrame to MidRange to Windows learning as I went.

jimmycrackcorm

amen wrote:

you know you could be right but since I've been working as a programmer for 14 years I've bound to have worked in some different environments

For that vast majority of jobs you don't have to be a super duper expert master knowing every in and out of the language. As long you know a reasonably 70-80% and know where to find out the other info you should be fine.

Knowing other languges never hurt at least it shows you can learn and are adaptable. Some programmers get stuck doing C++ for 20 years, don't know anything about the internet, database programming, gui design etc and these are the so called masters.

If you look at the languages listed you might see a progression from MainFrame to MidRange to Windows learning as I went.

All due respect. I know where you're coming from as I'll have 20 years under my own belt this year. 20 years ago I used to hand code motorola 6502 assembly directly into hex, no assembler, no debugger. But I doubt if that would be any use on my C.V. now. Somewhere along the line is 8 years of C and C++ which is why I'd shy away from recommending it now - too much time spent making sure code works as opposed to making sure functionality works.

Looking at job postings, they are almost always linked to very specific requirements so it's best to pick a mainstream development area and channel a speciality in a specific industry knowledge.

cornbb

Evil Phil wrote:

What's Objective C cornbb? I've always had an interest in learning it but that alone doesn't justify buying a Mac.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objective-C

Its an extension of C++ really. The syntax is pretty weird at first but I picked it up within a few weeks. We're using the Cocoa API (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocoa_(API)), which adds a lot of really nice libraries to the language for Mac development. Mac OSX includes the Xcode IDE and the Interface Builder too, so all these elements make it pretty easy to get started in Mac development.