Are the Gardai underfunded?

ballooba

This is not a topic that I know a lot about.

What I do know is the following:

• Gardai cannot use their radios for anything other than traffic incidents because criminals have scanners. The radios they use are analogue. The Gardai rely on mobile phones.
• Anything to be recorded on Pulse is called in and transcribed by a typist in a call centre.
• Other police forces in the world have digital radios which cannot be infiltrated by scanners.
• I have seen Police in Chicago using sophisticated laptops integrated into their cars. Why don't Gardai have these.
• Gardai report that the equipment they receive is sub-standard and they don't even receive it most of the time. Stab Vests, Bulletproof Vest, Cold-Weather Gear, Biker Gear etc.

Lack of resources hampering Garda, says GRA leader
Paul Cullen

Outmoded equipment, broken radios and delayed delivery of promised new supplies are impeding the work of ordinary gardaí, according to the president of the Garda Representative Association.

John Egan said Garda investigative work was being compromised by criminals routinely listening in on its radio network.

While criminals were buying more and more sophisticated equipment, gardaí had to work with insufficient resources and outmoded equipment, Mr Egan said yesterday. New equipment had been promised, but the delivery dates have been put back repeatedly.

Speaking on RTÉ Radio, Mr Egan issued a plea for the same kind of long-term injection of resources to fight the evil of gangland crime that was seen after the murders of Veronica Guerin and Jerry McCabe in 1996.

"Back then, resources were pumped into the force and when they were, we were able to do our job properly. We were able to prove that when resourced properly and given the right support we can deal effectively with this type of evil."

Gardaí had been promised a secure new national radio system "since before this millennium started," he pointed out. "The Taoiseach said if the radios are broken we should fix them. We reckon they're too old and the parts are too hard to get."

Officers were also promised personal-issue bulletproof vests rather than vest being shared among unit members. "We're told they're coming and we realise they're coming, but it's taking so long for them to be delivered."

There were similar delays in the delivery of anti-stab vests and extendable batons, and gardaí also needed incapacitating sprays to bring the force up to best international practice for dealing with public disorder at night.

Stab-proof vests were currently only available in a pilot scheme in Tallaght, he said.

"The deadlines for delivery of these vital resources are being put back time after time. It's only now that we're getting the safer patrol cars we've always sought. We want to make our jobs safer. We recognise strides have been made in recruiting gardaí and top class facilities have been put in place, but it's not happening fast enough." He said a long-term solution was needed. The Garda, like the health service, was coming from a low base and were trying to play catch up.

© 2006 The Irish Times

Personally I think that our police force should have be over resourced. I think excess capacity in the police force would be money well spent for when it is needed. I know the US is a lot richer than us, but any dealings I had with cops in Chicago the response time was less than 5 minutes. I have had a fair bit of experience with the PD in Chicago.

Are the Gardai under-resourced or is it the usual Civil Service waste and excess?

tallus

I think the slow response time when you call them in many cases is indicative of how under resourced they are.

ballooba

tallus wrote:

I think the slow response time when you call them in many cases is indicative of how under resourced they are.

Actually I just remembered two incidents where I have had experience with Gardai in the last three months.

One was a neighbour who was being threatened by a tresspasser. Response time was less than 5 mins. Three squad cars, 9 Gardai.

The other was when I thought I had seen a truck on my road that had done a hit and run on my car. Response time was about 10 mins in that case. 1 Squad Car with two Gardai that time.

I think those are examples of resources being used well. In the second case I think the only reason I got the visit was because it was quiet and they had a car in the area.

I have heard of them having trouble getting people to minor incidents. Cousin's Subaru Impreza was robbed under threat of violence a few years ago and it took 90 minutes for a car to come.


Do you think Pulse is working? I think the Gardai are so scared of the bad press from the initial attempt that they won't try to fix it. I think they should be given money to have another go at making it work.

tallus

I suppose it boils down to where you live too, I mean the station in Tallaght is one of the busiest in the country.

ballooba

My area falls under the remit of Donnybrook Station. That's probably why our response times are so good.

Where my parents live the average response time would be 30 to 45 minutes unless someones life is in danger. Even then probably ten to fifteen. They live in the sticks.

It probably is underfunded, but as it stands I don't think the organisational structure and bureaucratic regulations under which the Gardai operate allow it to make optimal use of their resources. Increasing input alone won't necessarily improve output.

bk

Someone tried to steal my bike from my shed, response time was on 3 minutes and they caught the fecker going out the side gate with the bike

While as a student working a part time job in an electronics factory, the security alarm went off, about 2 minutes later a special branch car with armed detectives came screeching in the drive way.

So I do think they try very hard.

From what I hear, the PULSE system is a complete shambles and a mess of old technology that barely woks. Needs to be replaced.

In the UK, the emergency services radio system is actually run across 02's mobile phone network, using mobile phone network (o2 Airwave). However it uses a separate priority frequency (so if the normal network gets overloaded on New Years day or during an event like 7/7 it doesn't effect the emergency services system) and they also have special, rugged radio like units. It also supports fancy data services, like laptops, etc.

http://www.airwaveservice.co.uk/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TETRA

is_that_so

I think here it is also a case of looking at the messenger . After all the GRA has in the past brought us the Blue Flu and refused to have anything to do with the Garda Reserve. That aside it does seem to depend. I rang the Gardai in Balbriggan for a lunatic on M1 and a car was despatched immediately.

layke

bk wrote:

From what I hear, the PULSE system is a complete shambles and a mess of old technology that barely woks. Needs to be replaced.

ballooba wrote:

Do you think Pulse is working? I think the Gardai are so scared of the bad press from the initial attempt that they won't try to fix it. I think they should be given money to have another go at making it work.

In 2000 I witnessed the pulse system first hand after being bought into the station to make a statement after being attacked in my work place. They couldn't file my report because they used State lines for their system and it was currently tied up with lotto night taking all the bandwidth.

"Sometimes I have to wait hours before I can charge a guy" was the words the guard used.

The system seemed very basic and slow back then to me and I come from an IT background. Things may be different now but if it's the same it sure ain't worth the money spent.

ballooba

is_that_so wrote:

I think here it is also a case of looking at the messenger . After all the GRA has in the past brought us the Blue Flu and refused to have anything to do with the Garda Reserve.

Is the GRA not the only stakeholder for rank and file Gardai? They have they AGSI for Sergeants.

If so then you cannot dismiss them for representing and defending their members. There is usually a reason for resistance to change.

In the case of the Pulse system it would appear they were right to resist if the system doesn't work.

In the case of the reserve they felt it wasn't being done right?

is_that_so

ballooba wrote:

Is the GRA not the only stakeholder for rank and file Gardai? They have they AGSI for Sergeants.

If so then you cannot dismiss them for representing and defending their members. There is usually a reason for resistance to change.

In the case of the Pulse system it would appear they were right to resist if the system doesn't work.

In the case of the reserve they felt it wasn't being done right?

Not dismissing them and they are fully entitled to state an opinion. I am merely suggesting that they have a chequered track record and I would have been more inclined to give credibility to a more independent body.As regards the reserve my own recollection on that is that when it was linked to their pay increase they rowed in behind it enthusiastically.

ballooba

is_that_so wrote:

Not dismissing them and they are fully entitled to state an opinion. I am merely suggesting that they have a chequered track record and I would have been more inclined to give credibility to a more independent body.As regards the reserve my own recollection on that is that when it was linked to their pay increase they rowed in behind it enthusiastically.

I get what your saying now. They're spin is going to be biased. I'd always take what these crowds say with a pinch of salt. More like a salt cellar for some unions.

I have heard individual Gardai complain about the standard of their gear before. They have had to buy gear out of their own pocket as the stuff supplied was substandard, or it just wasn't supplied.

MrPudding

is_that_so wrote:

Not dismissing them and they are fully entitled to state an opinion. I am merely suggesting that they have a chequered track record and I would have been more inclined to give credibility to a more independent body.As regards the reserve my own recollection on that is that when it was linked to their pay increase they rowed in behind it enthusiastically.

So are they lying when they say they have old analogue radios with no encryption that can be listened to with cheap scanners? Are they lying when they say the stabproof vests and personal bulletproof vests have not arrived? It is not spin, they either have the kit or they don't.

These things are very easy to check and to be honest the credibility of the organisation is really not an issue.

MrP

ballooba

MrPudding wrote:

These things are very easy to check and to be honest the credibility of the organisation is really not an issue.

I would tend to agree with the assertion that the GRA is a credible group.

I wouldn't hold the Blue Flu against them, they get fairly crap pay and their working conditions are usually fairly crap. Case and point is the state of the Garda Stations they use.

With regard to their resistance to the reserve. People are predisposed to be have a negative attitude towards change. Change disrupts people's routines and affects their sense of security. Only communication (including listening) and trust is going to alter attitudes. A financial sweetener was a good way to shut them up, but perhaps not the best way to deal with the situation.

I don't think any Garda would trust Michael McDowell to have their best interests at heart. He doesn't seem the best at building bridges.

TheNog

I work in a large town of approx. 30,000 people at last census. Each unit consists of 8/9 Gardai of which 4 members stay in the station to man the public office, communications, one is the sergeant and one to do files. That leaves 4 on the streets to cover a large and very busy town. All jobs that come in on the radio have to be prioritised with life threatening situations being the most important of course. It can take up to hour or more to get to the less serious ones like a minor accident (with no injuries) or a break-in or someone being threatened with assault (where no assault takes place and the offender is not there).
The radio system is something like 20/30 years old and apparently costs a fortune to keep it running. McDowell said yesterday that contracts will be signed today for the Tetra system countrywide.
The fleet is a joke. The Mondeo,while a good solid car,spends more time in the garage being fixed. There is only 40,000 miles on it and it is already losing power. Back up cars have a measily 1.4 litre engines. We got a brand new Focus a couple of weeks ago and the car just has no power at all. I would guess it took us nearly 15 seconds to reach 60mph when responding to an emergency call. One time we were trying to stop a car on a motorway that was travelling at 100mph. The car we were driving was unmarked and for ages we couldn't catch it. We eventually caught the car but only after it was slowed by traffic doing 120kph and we were going downhill which increased our speed to 110mph. Again McDowell said yesterday that 1,200 new cars are being purchased this month. Fair enough but will these cars by 2.0 litre or more?
As for the gear,the jacket leaks, the gloves are useless, the boots may as well be space boots or clown shoes cos they are not good for running in. We also have to buy our own torch,members usually nick other members gear cos the hassle of reporting your own missing/damaged gear is just not worth it.

So are we under-resourced? Absolutely!!!!!!!!!!!

is_that_so

MrPudding wrote:

So are they lying when they say they have old analogue radios with no encryption that can be listened to with cheap scanners? Are they lying when they say the stabproof vests and personal bulletproof vests have not arrived? It is not spin, they either have the kit or they don't.

These things are very easy to check and to be honest the credibility of the organisation is really not an issue.

MrP

It is not a question of lies, but perception. Where an organisation operates specifically for their own members they may not always be acting for the interests of everyone else. Benchmarking is the best example of this. Credibility does come into question in this case.

I am not arguing with the problems mentioned but IMO the problems are more to do with funds being used to target high profile issues as well as political foot dragging and not underfunding. I am suggesting the use of the term "underfunding" in this case is to highlight the problems of their members.

ballooba

is_that_so wrote:

I am not arguing with the problems mentioned but IMO the problems are more to do with funds being used to target high profile issues as well as political foot dragging and not underfunding.

The public get their info on the Gardai from the media. The Gardai are thereby evaluated by what is reported in the media. If the media report on high profile issues then of course Gardai are going to allocate extra resources to tackle those issues.

If they were adequately funded and making prope use of resources (because I'm not saying they don't waste money, I don't know that) then they wouldn't have to have an asymetric allocation of resources to deal with the high profile issues? There would be adequate resources to tackle all the issues?

ballooba

TheNog wrote:

McDowell said yesterday that contracts will be signed today for the Tetra system countrywide.

Interesting.

TheNog wrote:

The fleet is a joke. The Mondeo,while a good solid car,spends more time in the garage being fixed. There is only 40,000 miles on it and it is already losing power. Back up cars have a measily 1.4 litre engines. We got a brand new Focus a couple of weeks ago and the car just has no power at all.

TheNog wrote:

Again McDowell said yesterday that 1,200 new cars are being purchased this month. Fair enough but will these cars by 2.0 litre or more?

Why is it always Fords? Is this traditionally a political choice because Ford had the presence in Cork? Why not Toyotas?

TheNog wrote:

As for the gear,the jacket leaks, the gloves are useless, the boots may as well be space boots or clown shoes cos they are not good for running in. We also have to buy our own torch,members usually nick other members gear cos the hassle of reporting your own missing/damaged gear is just not worth it.

From the horse's mouth.

TheNog

Ford has had the main contract for years to supply the cars however I heard recently that they are about to lose that contract to Skoda. Apparently the Octavia RX will be the car of choice.Also heard that either BMW or Volvo offered to build a custom made patrol car for the Gardai but they were refused.

is_that_so

ballooba wrote:

The public get their info on the Gardai from the media. The Gardai are thereby evaluated by what is reported in the media. If the media report on high profile issues then of course Gardai are going to allocate extra resources to tackle those issues.

If they were adequately funded and making prope use of resources (because I'm not saying they don't waste money, I don't know that) then they wouldn't have to have an asymetric allocation of resources to deal with the high profile issues?

In theory yes , but unfortunately there are less votes in important basic equipment like gloves and stab vests,whereas Operation Oak and the like are much easier ways of showing us that money is being spent.

ballooba

is_that_so wrote:

In theory yes , but unfortunately there are less votes in important basic equipment like gloves and stab vests,whereas Operation Oak and the like are much easier ways of showing us that money is being spent.

Something like another Blue Flu might focus people's attention.

gurramok

is_that_so wrote:

In theory yes , but unfortunately there are less votes in important basic equipment like gloves and stab vests,whereas Operation Oak and the like are much easier ways of showing us that money is being spent.

Operation Oak *might* have been a waste of money as 23 of the suspects are out on bail free to resume their activities as they please!

With regard to resourcing, it totally depends on where you live.

In deprived areas, there is a serious problem with lack of gardai where their numbers have stagnated and they are overstretched to cover miles and miles of housing estates with no new stations to compensate for the population increase.
Personally where i am, its a hit and miss affair. Its used to be maybe 2+ years ago a totally miss affair waiting upto hours for a garda to arrive in the dublin suburb.
One particular time, i rang the local garda station 9 times during the day to report on anti-social behaviour by youths burning cars in fields and stoning houses. Other neighbours pleaded for help as well over the phone.
Eventually the gardai did arrive en masse to sort it at 7pm when first report was at 11am, just wayyyy too long to respond.
Nowadays, it can take from a couple minutes to an hour max for them to respond so things have improved a bit

Some commuter towns like Balbriggan have had no extra gardai in years despite huge population increase which is not a good thing at all, just exarcibating problems down the line.

Contrast the above to where Missus Gurramok lives in D4, a cop car has always responded within 10 minutes for years, gardai are always on foot patrol, it actually feels safe to walk through at 4am in morning, no anti-coscial behaviour evedient, its nearly impossible to commit a crime down there, its like a different planet!!

The Garda commisioner is reported to be setting up league tables to rate gardai, interesting to see what comes of this!

walrusgumble

would it be a daft idea to suggest that instead of a garda reserve on the streets, these people and people from it, secretarial, computer programmers etc be employed and receive special training to carry out some or most of administrative work while leaving the gardai to focus on crime prevention and more presence on the street? or would that increase debt problems?

problem about underfunding is that for more payouts to gardai resources or just better planning, taxes would need to increase, how many people you know wish to be burdened by paying more tax?

Turner

gurramok wrote:

Operation Oak *might* have been a waste of money as 23 of the suspects are out on bail free to resume their activities as they please!


One particular time, i rang the local garda station 9 times during the day to report on anti-social behaviour by youths burning cars in fields and stoning houses. Other neighbours pleaded for help as well over the phone.
Eventually the gardai did arrive en masse to sort it at 7pm when first report was at 11am, just wayyyy too long to respond.
Nowadays, it can take from a couple minutes to an hour max for them to respond so things have improved a bit

With regard to the 23 people arrested and released on bail. They were arrested for serious ofences for which they will be prosecuted on indictment. Nearly all of them are facing lengthy stretches in prison. Its just they will be free until the completion of their trials.

As for the Gardai not responding in time. All their calls are recorded and prioritised. Burning cars in fields is a daily occurance in some estates in west dublin. With some stations only able to man 2 uniform patrol cars its not any surprise that in some cases gardai will not respond for hours or even at all.

The likes of a suicide or mental treatment patient will tie up a patrol car for anything 4-8 hours. Drink driver about 1 hour. Shoplifter 1-2 hours depending on an interview. A Robbery prisoner anything up to 12 hours. When you consider planned searches of houses and the man power involved (with the ERU required to assist the searches of some houses in limerick) you can see why stations strength can be very low.

Needless to say for extremely urgent calls such as burglary in progress, robbery in progress, people getting attacked, or activation of a panic alarm everything wold be dropped and responded to immediately.

Turner

Another Garda was stabbed on duty in Fermoy. Why have the Gardai still not been supplied with stab vests? Is there a need for them? A simple search on google of "garda stabbed" brings up the following results.

Garda stabbed in Fermoy
http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0101/clancyt.html


23 December 2005 "Garda stabbed during raid"
http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1223/cork1.html


Drug addict stabs Grarda
http://breakingnews.ie/2006/12/08/story288581.html


Garda stabbed at checkpoint
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/index.php3?issue_id=11532


Chinese man stabs Garda
http://www.rte.ie/news/2002/0405/stabbing.html


Two gardai stabbed by chinese
http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0715/dublin.html


In 2002 Michael Mc Dowell rejected a need for garda stab vests or improved batons saying he did not want a "robocop" image.
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2002/07/22/story521240982.asp

The NYPD offered the gardai their second hand stab vests as they realised the Gardai couldnt afford to buy their own. This offer was rejected by Mr Mc Dowell.

What is the delay in buying these vests? How many more gardai will get stabbed before the vests are actually bought and distributed?

The costs involved in settling actions taken by injured gardai against the state are probably more than enough to buy the vests.

It was more important to pay for the training of the Garda reserve than to properly resource the actual real gardai who are working 24/7 with only a blue shirt to protect them against knives and guns.

Villain

Well the Indo carried the report below on the 1st of August 2006:

Boost as order goes out for 13,000 more anti-stab vests

ADVERTISEMENT





THE Government is to purchase 13,000 anti-stab vests for the Garda force.

Tenders to supply the defensive vests are currently being evaluated and an order for their supply and delivery will be made by the end of the month.

Extra vests have been demanded by the Garda Representative Association and the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors during a public debate with Justice Minister Michael McDowell on his plans for a Garda reserve.

And they were also sought by Garda Commissioner Noel Conroy who told the force that the new personal protection issue would have anti-spike, anti-stab as well as anti-projectile capabilities.

Two separate contracts are to be signed by the Department of Justice. The first is for the supply of 11,000 vests at a cost of around €3m for which there have been 11 valid tenders.

The second contract is for 2,100 vests at a cost of €750,000 and nine companies are in competition to win it. After the orders have been placed, delivery of the new vests will be made by a November deadline.

The lightweight and flexible navy blue vests will be generally worn outside normal clothing but can be concealed under a jacket.

The selected vest must comply with strict standards for ballistic and anti-stab resistance.

In 2004, gardai were supplied with an initial 500 vests at a cost of €150,000.

Turner

5 months later and still no sign of them.

ballooba

I think the gardai were also making the point that the gear they are supplied with is often sub-standard. Not sure if that includes these vests. I started a thread last week or week before on this.

It's here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055030693

Steyr

They should have the best of everything, the Squad Cars dont even have roll bars. Disgraceful.:mad:

El Stuntman

Steyr wrote:

They should have the best of everything, the Squad Cars dont even have roll bars. Disgraceful.:mad:

the snooker table in the Store St station looks pretty nice from the DART

Celticfire

El Stuntman wrote:

the snooker table in the Store St station looks pretty nice from the DART

I'm sure you'll find that was bought by officers out of their own money to use during downtime rather than supplied by the government.