Fixed Charge Offence - No Penalty Points???

kdouglas

Just wondering if anybody knows the answer to this one....

Basically i was going across O'Connell bridge last week, got stuck in yellow box, im normally quite vigilant about the yellow box rule but..... to err is human i guess
anyway, garda comes over and waves his torch to turn right, so i nodded and went to turn, however just as i was about to turn (id only moved about a foot) the way cleared and i decided sod this, im not going back down the quays (it was rush hour traffic) so i changed course and went straight, he didnt like that, came after me on foot and pulled me in.

got a notice in the post today for the below

1. Failure to clear a yellow box junction. (€60 fine)
2. Failure to obey garda instruction (€80 fine)

at the time, he claimed id be getting penalty points and a fine for each of the offences (there was a 3rd, but he was talking out of his arse on that one) but yet all i got were these fines in the post today??? are penalty points usually sent seperately or can i pay the fine and assume im not gonna get any points?

Wishbone Ash

kdouglas wrote:

1. Failure to clear a yellow box junction. (€60 fine)
2. Failure to obey garda instruction (€80 fine)

They are both non-penalty point offences.

kdouglas

hmmm... according to http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/7262-0.pdf the "Failure to act in accordance with a Garda signal" is 1 point, and i couldnt find one that explicitly said yellow box but assumed "Entry by driver into hatched marked area of roadway, e.g. carriageway reduction lane" or similar would apply, both of which are offences carrying 1 penalty point

if it's just two fines then im happy enough, the garda was trying to give me 6 penalty points (*** insert rude description here***)

Wishbone Ash

kdouglas wrote:

hmmm... according to http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/7262-0.pdf the "Failure to act in accordance with a Garda signal" is 1 point, and i couldnt find one that explicitly said yellow box but assumed "Entry by driver into hatched marked area of roadway, e.g. carriageway reduction lane" or similar would apply, both of which are offences carrying 1 penalty point

if it's just two fines then im happy enough, the garda was trying to give me 6 penalty points (*** insert rude description here***)

Fixed Charge Offences
from 3 April 2006
(Penalty points do NOT apply to these offences)



Illegally parking a vehicle in a disabled person’s parking bay
Failure by driver to have tax disc fixed and displayed on windscreen of vehicle
Failure by driver to have an insurance disc fixed and displayed on windscreen of vehicle
Illegally parking a taxi in a taxi rank
Taxis illegally standing for hire at places other than taxi ranks
Illegally parking or using a vehicle in a Local Authority car park
Illegally parking a vehicle where a time restriction applies
Illegally parking a vehicle where a Local Authority ‘pay parking’ applies
Illegally parking a vehicle in a bus lane or
bus-only street
Illegally stopping or parking a vehicle at
school entrances
Illegally parking a vehicle other than a goods vehicle (30 mins. max.) in a loading bay during period of operation
Illegally parking a HGV or bus in an area where a weight restriction applies
Illegally parking a vehicle in a pedestrianised street during period of operation
Illegally parking a vehicle other than a bus at a bus stop
Illegally parking a bus outside the area allocated for buses at a bus stop or bus stand
Failure to remove a vehicle parked on a cycle track before the appointed commencement of operation
Parking a vehicle where it is prohibited to do so (e.g. double yellow lines; no parking sign; cycle track; within 5m of a road junction; where there’s a continuous white line; taxi only stands; obstructing emergency service stations; obstructing a driveway; within 15m of pedestrian crossing or traffic lights)
Stopping or parking a vehicle in a clearway during the period stated on the traffic sign
Illegally stopping or parking a vehicle on any part of a motorway
Failure to obey traffic direction given by Gardai
Failure by passenger aged 17 or over to comply with the requirements regarding the use of seat belts in front and rear seats
Illegally entering a road with a HGV or bus where a weight restriction applies
Failure by driver to give appropriate signals by use of indicator or specified hand signals when intending to slow down, stop or change course
Entering a yellow box junction either partly or wholly, unless the driver can clear the area
Driving a vehicle (other than a taxi in course of business or a cyclist) in a bus lane during the period of operation.
Making a U-turn on a dual carriageway where a “No U-turn” traffic sign is on display
Driving a vehicle other than a light rail vehicle on a tram lane
Stopping or parking a vehicle other than a light rail vehicle on a tram lane

DeepBlue

Both offences appear to be on the full list of penalty point offences and have one point each .

Wishbone Ash

DeepBlue wrote:

Both offences appear to be on the full list of penalty point offences and have one point each .

The penalty point list does not specificly mention a 'yellow box' offence and it refers to a 'Garda signal' as opposed to a 'Garda traffic direction' in the fixed penalty list. Now I'm getting confused.

seamus

Yeah, nothing there about the yellow box (except maybe "Driving without consideration"), but "Failure to act in accordance with a Garda signal" certainly seems quite clear.

Perhaps because the Garda had told you to turn right (given you an instruction), and wasn't actually "giving a signal" (i.e. directing traffic at a junction), that offence doesn't apply.

kdouglas

it is a tad bit confusing,i havent seen anything on the notices that mentions anything about penalty points though, so im going to assume its just a fine i think...

Wishbone Ash

kdouglas wrote:

it is a tad bit confusing,i havent seen anything on the notices that mentions anything about penalty points though, so im going to assume its just a fine i think...

Yes, to answer you initial question, you would have been informed about penalty points with the fines if they were applicable but they're not.

PS - I think you were treated fairly harshly - most Gardai would have applied one offence only if they were pursuing the matter. (Bracing myself for the moral police onslaught!).

Edit: spelling error

cast_iron

Wishbone Ash wrote:

PS - I think you were treated fairly harshly - most Gardai would have applied one offence only if they were pursuing the matter. (Bracing myself for the moral police onslaught!).

Here we go - come on, a Garda tells you to go somewhere but you think "sod him" and ignore it. I would have thrown the book at him. That's downright disrespect.

By reading the OP, the Garda "waved his torch". If that's not a signal, what is?
So, "Failure to act in accordance with a Garda signal" would seem to apply here.

I would reckon "Driving without reasonable consideration" could also apply.

But seeing as no notice was given of points, I'm not sure what will happen.
What was the apparent 3rd offence the Garda spoke of? Perhaps he spoke from his mouth as opposed to his behind.



Edit: "Hatched area" does not include yellow boxes, so you're okay on that one!

Wishbone Ash

cast_iron wrote:

Here we go - come on, a Garda tells you to go somewhere but you think "sod him" and ignore it. I would have thrown the book at him. That's downright disrespect.

By reading the OP, the Garda "waved his torch". If that's not a signal, what is?
So, "Failure to act in accordance with a Garda signal" would seem to apply here.

Also, surely a yellow box can be classed as a "hatched area" (just because it doesn't state it doesn't mean it doesn't apply, Wishbone.
So, "Entry by driver into hatched marked area of roadway" would also seem to apply.

I would reckon "Driving without reasonable consideration" could also apply.

But seeing as no notice was given of points, I'm not sure what will happen.
What was the apparent 3rd offence the Garda spoke of? Perhaps he spoke from his mouth as opposed to his behind.

Good thing I braced myself!

kdouglas

cast_iron wrote:

Here we go - come on, a Garda tells you to go somewhere but you think "sod him" and ignore it. I would have thrown the book at him. That's downright disrespect.

NO i didnt ignore his direction, i was following his request, however the way became clear (which the garda could not see because he was facing the other direction) and i then decided to go the way i was heading originally as it was completely safe to do so and i would not obstruct anyone or cause harm in anyway by doing so

cast_iron wrote:

By reading the OP, the Garda "waved his torch". If that's not a signal, what is?
So, "Failure to act in accordance with a Garda signal" would seem to apply here.

yes,he did give a signal, which i followed and then diverted from due to the fact that i had more information about the situation than he did

cast_iron wrote:

Also, surely a yellow box can be classed as a "hatched area" (just because it doesn't state it doesn't mean it doesn't apply, Wishbone.
So, "Entry by driver into hatched marked area of roadway" would also seem to apply.

perhaps

cast_iron wrote:

I would reckon "Driving without reasonable consideration" could also apply.

how?

cast_iron wrote:

But seeing as no notice was given of points, I'm not sure what will happen.
What was the apparent 3rd offence the Garda spoke of? Perhaps he spoke from his mouth as opposed to his behind.

The apparent third offence which he claimed was driving into the path of oncoming traffic! he tried to claim that i was in the path of the contra-flow bus lane (which had no traffic on it at the time) and he was definately talking out of his behind there because the bus would have to go completely the wrong direction for me to cross it's path.

cast_iron

kdouglas wrote:

NO i didnt ignore his direction,

Yes, you did. He told you go right, you didn't.

kdouglas wrote:

i was following his request, however the way became clear (which the garda could not see because he was facing the other direction) and i then decided to go the way i was heading originally as it was completely safe to do so and i would not obstruct anyone or cause harm in anyway by doing so
...
yes,he did give a signal, which i followed and then diverted from due to the fact that i had more information about the situation than he did

Completely irrelevant. The signal from the Garda was to go right - not for you to decide what's best.

kdouglas wrote:

cast_iron wrote:

Also, surely a yellow box can be classed as a "hatched area" (just because it doesn't state it doesn't mean it doesn't apply, Wishbone.
So, "Entry by driver into hatched marked area of roadway" would also seem to apply.

perhaps

I've edited. The yellow box is not classed as a hatched area.

kdouglas wrote:

cast_iron wrote:

I would reckon "Driving without reasonable consideration" could also apply.

how?

You ended up accidentally in a yellow box. You should have foreseen/considered that this could have occurred.

kdouglas wrote:

The apparent third offence which he claimed was driving into the path of oncoming traffic! he tried to claim that i was in the path of the contra-flow bus lane (which had no traffic on it at the time) and he was definately talking out of his behind there because the bus would have to go completely the wrong direction for me to cross it's path.

He may have been correct. Were you heading (East) towards Dublin port, coming from the North Quays?

kdouglas

cast_iron: im not going to get into a debate about the issues with you, i was there, you werent. i can tell your one of those people who will debate until the cows come home even if the issue has little or no bearing on their own life.
ordinarily im a careful driver, but in this circumstance i didnt foresee getting stuck in the yellow box (the lane ahead was clear but the truck in front of me was too wide to get through) and last time i checked, we mere humans are unable to see the future?!?!
the issue as to whether or not the offence occured or not is not what i was querying, i was merely curious as to whether i can expect penalty points aswell or given the fact that all i received was a fixed charge notice that would be all i would hear about it.

cast_iron

Well i wasn't there, but you don't know me. There is no debating to be done. You post is quite clear on what happened. It just strikes me as odd that you don't appear to think you did much wrong.

I'm usually a careful driver too, and yes, i've got stuck in the odd yellow box myself. But by defn, you are supposed to look ahead to make sure you don't. Nobody is expected to be a clairvoyant.