Too fat to fly?

RainyDay

voodoo_child wrote:

No, i didnt miss them, i dont agree with them. Most fat people I know enjoy their food too much. Its a lifestyle choice, and they are perfectly entitled to it.

So just to be clear, you are suggesting that airline policy is based on 'most fat people that you know', rather than any medical research? So if the fat people that I know are different to the fat people that you know, will the airlines change the policy when I'm travelling? Has the thought struck you that perhaps your personal, anecdotal experience of fat people does not tell you the full story? Has the thought struck you that perhaps some of the fat people that you know do not share their entire medical history with you? Please do try to open up your mind just a millimetre or two for your new year's resolution.

voodoo_child wrote:

Aye I do actually. I dislike people of all religions equally though, so it shouldnt offend your PC sensibilities.

Who you like or dislike is entirely irrelevant to me. Your lack of civility and simple good manners reflects poorly on you. You berate others for their lack of self-control, yet you feel free to shoot off at the mouth in an offensive manner. Maybe you should add 'keep a civil tongue in my head' to that list of resolutions for the new year.

Commander Vimes wrote:

fair enough, i read it wrong. thought i remembered reading it earlier on in the thread. doesn't change the point i made though

I disagree - It completely changes the point you made, in that it shows that you are speaking from a position of ignorance. You don't actually know what percentage of people have obesity has a result of medical conditions, yet you are prepared to implement public policies which discriminate against such people. Wouldn't it just be good common sense to understand the problem properly before you come up with solutions?

Commander Vimes wrote:

the fact that the system is abused doesn't make the idea a bad one. it just has to be done properly

and we're going to define "no fault of their own" as "no medical condition that caused it"

So just to be clear, you would accept depression as a medical cause - right?

InFront wrote:

You want an exact figure? There is no exact figure, but the answer is very very very very few people cannot possibly control their obesity

I may be labouring the point here, but you still have no basis for your 'very very very very very few' claim. Show me the data.

InFront wrote:

You want an exact figure? There is no exact figure, but the answer is very very very very few people cannot possibly control their obesity

Prof. S. O Rahilly, University of Cambridge:

And these people have a nice diagram under "Causes of Obesity". They dont mention anything that can't be controlled.

Interesting - so how would you suggest that individuals control the 'genetic factors' mentioned in that diagram? And do you have quick, easy, off-the-shelf cures available for the hormonal problems and drug-related problems mentioned immediately below the nice diagram?

And when you say 'there is no exact figure', I presume that you really mean 'I haven't been able to find an exact figure with a few minutes Googling', which is a very different statement.

While the Wellcome trust article is interesting, it really does nothing to answer the important question regarding the prevelance of medical causes of obesity. I thought that this section was quite interesting;

The study of such phenotypes - where a mutation in just one gene causes a dramatic effect on the body - took a leap forward when, in 1994, a hormone called leptin was found to be a key regulator of appetite and weight. In people, mutations are rare but all affected children were hugely obese, with ravenous appetites. In Cambridge and Canada, children are being treated with leptin, with equally dramatic effects as they have returned to a normal body weight. "It’s very pleasing that we can use a rational approach to treatment, and correct extreme obesity in a human," says Professor O’Rahilly.

InFront wrote:

I dont get it, do some people actually believe obesity is an inescapable burden? Being heavy is one thing, but do you actually think that a healthy diet and exercise will not prevent obesity?
Bad genetics? So where were these bad genes ten years ago? Same with hormones and all of these other scapegoats. There are incredibly few excuses for obesity.

And do you have any basis in evidence for your 'incredibly few' claim? Show me the data.

Sam Vimes

RainyDay wrote:

I disagree - It completely changes the point you made, in that it shows that you are speaking from a position of ignorance. You don't actually know what percentage of people have obesity has a result of medical conditions, yet you are prepared to implement public policies which discriminate against such people. Wouldn't it just be good common sense to understand the problem properly before you come up with solutions?

in fact, if you read all my posts, i suggested getting some sort of medical card which differentiates people with medical conditions from people who just eat too much. for the purposes of plane tickets and such things only of course.

RainyDay wrote:

So just to be clear, you would accept depression as a medical cause - right?

well, not really. that would depend on the circumstances. to mention a cliche which i got from the show friends, when women get dumped they pig out on ice cream. if a woman does this too much and becomes obese, i don't think she should be allowed two seats for the price of one. however, if someone had clinical depression, a chemical imbalance in the brain, that'd be a different story. having said that, a depressed person is still a sentient being and capable of making the decision to put down the fork

RainyDay wrote:

I may be labouring the point here, but you still have no basis for your 'very very very very very few' claim. Show me the data.

i showed some data. obesity has increased 97% in china in ten years. prader willie syndrome and clinical depression didn't increase 97%, they just stopped exercising and got fat.

RainyDay wrote:

Interesting - so how would you suggest that individuals control the 'genetic factors' mentioned in that diagram?

we're not suggesting that

justsomebloke

rainyday as you seem to trying to knock anyone who can not provide figures to say that the majority of obesity cases is not caused by illness then may perhaps you can provide with links to show the rest of us what % of obesity is caused dur to illness.

I for one think that the vast mojaority of obesity cases are due to poor diet choices and lack of exercise. Before you ask no I don't have figures to back this statement up I can only based my answer on personal experience. The personal experience I have though comes from posting on quite a few fitness forums where everyday people ask how they can lose weight, and they are always asked to post up a copyof their current diet. through all my time doing this I am yet to come across somebody post up a really decent diet straight off.
This has included people with different health issues but this gets us to the point that surly people who are prone to be obese through for health reasons should have a spot on diet, for some of these this would probably eating a small amount a day and having to use supplementation to take in the essentials.
The level of decent nutrional information in out there is shocking and this can be seen by picking up any of the glamour mags that are posting on this new years new fad diets, most of wich will have plently of nutrional holes in them leaving people to actaully gain more weight then they lost once they come off them.
but anyway where does this leave us in relation to over sized people on a plane. well for me it is that if they are too big for one seat they need 2 as it is not fair on them having to squash into one as it can interfer with the quality of service provided to the person beside them, so as stated on the air france site they should be made buy 2 seats, however all this should be done before they get to the airport as there mighn't be an extra seat for them to take. If a person's is oversized due to a medical condition that isn't going to be able to make them fit into a single seat any easier so they are still going to be interferring with the person opposite them, so at this point as they should know they have a medical condition surely the ownnes is on them to make the airline aware of this and ask for a second seat before hand. It would be up to the airline at this point to say if they want to discriminate based on medical conditions and charge them for 2, however it would mean any obese people who don't have a medical conditions have to fork out the extra for an additional seat.

Voodu Child

RainyDay wrote:

Who you like or dislike is entirely irrelevant to me. Your lack of civility and simple good manners reflects poorly on you. You berate others for their lack of self-control, yet you feel free to shoot off at the mouth in an offensive manner. Maybe you should add 'keep a civil tongue in my head' to that list of resolutions for the new year.

Ive re-read my posts and dont see anything that could be taken as offensive by any reasonable and mature person. You seem to find any posts containing negative opinions of obese people offensive. Personally, i think life is a wonderful gift, and i find eating yourself into obesity offensive.

Faith

Right, RainyDay, you seem determined to argue that obesity is usually attributable to medical conditions. Oh, boohoo, these poor people have X, Y or Z, and that makes them obese. Well, the American Obesity Association has this to say:

AOA wrote:

Persons with obesity are at risk of developing one or more serious medical conditions, which can cause poor health and premature death. Obesity is associated with more than 30 medical conditions, and scientific evidence has established a strong relationship with at least 15 of those conditions. Preliminary data also show the impact of obesity on various other conditions. Weight loss of about 10% of body weight, for persons with overweight or obesity, can improve some obesity-related medical conditions including diabetes and hypertension.

So right there, they're saying that, actually, obesity generally leads to medical conditions, rather than the other way around, as you're arguing.

I'm going to provide a link to that page, which also features details of how obesity affects many diseases. In case some people don't feel like clicking the link, I'll post the main points here.

AOA wrote:

Osteoarthritis (OA) - Modest weight loss of 10 to 15 pounds is likely to relieve symptoms and delay disease progression of knee OA.

Breast Cancer - Women who gain nearly 45 pounds or more after age 18 are twice as likely to develop breast cancer after menopause than those who remain weight stable.
The risk of breast cancer in men is also increased by obesity.

Cancers of the Esophagus and Gastric Cardia - Obesity is strongly associated with cancer of the esophagus and the risk becomes higher with increasing BMI.

Cardiovascular Disease (CVD) - Weight loss of 5% to 10% can reduce total blood cholesterol.

Carpal Tunnel Syndrome (CTS) - The odds of an obese patient having CTS were found in one study to be almost four times greater than that of a non-obese patient.
Seventy percent of persons in a recent CTS study were overweight or obese.

Diabetes (Type 2) - Obesity has been found to be the largest environmental influence on the prevalence of diabetes in a population.

Hypertension - Over 75% of hypertension cases are reported to be directly attributed to obesity.

That's just a handful there, to demonstrate my point. Should we still make allowances for these people because they're ill? Despite the fact that it may well have been their own fault? If I drink to excess every night, and develop cirrhosis of the liver, should I be given extra privileges for free anyway, just because I'm sick?

CathyMoran

I have hypothroidism which is associated with obesity but actually am skinny (BMI 18.5-20), I also have one of the medical conditions which is linked with obesity (oesphageal cancer) but have never been overweight for a day in my life.

I just do not like the way there is so much negativity on the thread about people who are overweight.

Certainly, those with a medical condition which can cause them to be overweight should not be penalised as long as they carry medical evidence with them, I have to always carry details that I am a type 1 diabetic (which is not generally associated with obesity).

The airline industry may have to adapt to the fact that its passangers are generally getting bigger but still allow for smaller people who would be swamped by larger seats.

spurious

I also have an autoimmune thyroid condition (Hashimoto's Syndrome) which has led to a large gain in weight.

I love the ignorance of the 'get a grip' posters here - they are from the same stable as the 'Junior Cert. is easy/I didn't have to study for my Leaving/mummy says everyone could afford the Institute if they wanted to/how come you can't afford an iPod?' yokels - I sincerely hope you or yours never develop the condition (and it is extremely common in people of Celtic or Viking ancestry).

Voodu Child

CathyMoran wrote:

I just do not like the way there is so much negativity on the thread about people who are overweight.

I have no problem with someone who is overweight, so long as they dont
-spill into the seat i am sitting in
-get two seats for the price of one because of a lifestyle choice

If have made the point of stating 'lifestyle choice' because i have no problem with someone getting two seats for the price of one based on a genuine medical condition. The point thats causing argument here is what constitutes a medical condition, and how many obese people are uncontrollably so.

LundiMardi

voodoo_child wrote:

If have made the point of stating 'lifestyle choice' because i have no problem with someone getting two seats for the price of one based on a genuine medical condition. The point thats causing argument here is what constitutes a medical condition, and how many obese people are uncontrollably so.

Next time you're on a plane and you see someone ''spilling'' over into another seat are you gonna ask them if they payed for said seat? Or to provide proof of a medical condition there and then?

Sam Vimes

LundiMardi wrote:

Next time you're on a plane and you see someone ''spilling'' over into another seat are you gonna ask them if they payed for said seat? Or to provide proof of a medical condition there and then?

well that's just silly tbh.

1 it's not the place of random passengers to accost fat people, its the place of the airline staff to ensure that its dealt with properly

2. if i'm not in the seat they're spilling into then its none of my business

3. if there's no one in the seat its no one's business whether he paid for it or not.

you're trying to make it seem as if we're all unreasonable and offensive about this and its just not true. if somebody requires two seats because he can't bring himself to walk past a mc donald's he should pay for two seats, simple as that. medical conditions are a separate issue and shouldn't be discriminated against

i don't care if someone wolfs down 100 big macs a day. its his life and its none of my business. but when i'm forced lose out on half the seat that i paid good money for, lest he be offended by someone pointing out that he doesn't fit into the seat, it becomes my business. why is that so unreasonable and offensive to you?

Voodu Child

LundiMardi wrote:

Next time you're on a plane and you see someone ''spilling'' over into another seat are you gonna ask them if they payed for said seat? Or to provide proof of a medical condition there and then?

It shouldnt happen - thats the whole point of this thread. A very obese man tried to get onto a plane, and the airline determined that his measurements were thus that he couldnt fit into one seat.

It shouldnt be up to me at all - it should be up to the person who cant fit into one seat to book two, and it should be up to the airline to charge accordingly, based on whether the person has a medical condition.

LundiMardi

voodoo_child wrote:

It shouldnt happen - thats the whole point of this thread. A very obese man tried to get onto a plane, and the airline determined that his measurements were thus that he couldnt fit into one seat.

Yet he had travelled with the same airline with no such problems before....

Sam Vimes

LundiMardi wrote:

Yet he had travelled with the same airline with no such problems before....

have you ever phoned meteor customer care? at this stage i phone up at least three times whenever i want something answered properly. then i take whichever answer i got told the most as the right one. its rare that i get told the same thing every time.

tell me, in your place of work, does every member of staff follow every regulation to the letter at all times?

in my job there's a stupid, rude girl who constantly antagonises customers and gives them the wrong answers. if they had walked up to me instead they would have got the right answer in a friendly manner. my point is that the fact that he got away with it a few times because some members of staff weren't doing their jobs properly means nothing

Voodu Child

LundiMardi wrote:

Yet he had travelled with the same airline with no such problems before....

If a garda stops you for speeding you cant use the excuse that youve been speeding on that stretch of road for years.

Look, this issue is just about common sense. If you need two seats and its your own fault, you pay for two. Theres nothing offensive about that.

LundiMardi

Commander Vimes wrote:

have you ever phoned meteor customer care? at this stage i phone up at least three times whenever i want something answered properly. then i take whichever answer i got told the most as the right one. its rare that i get told the same thing every time.

tell me, in your place of work, does every member of staff follow every regulation to the letter at all times?

No of course not... If you thought you could save a mass amount of money by not paying for a second ticket would you do it? I think you would.

The guy is not at fault here, as said already he had flown multiple times with no problem, maybe if there was consitency among the airlines this would have never happened, but there's not. Who's fault is that? Certainly not his.

On a ryanair flight this past summer to London i sat in the front row by the exit, the seat was very tight and towards the end of a 30 minute flight i was in serious pain and ended up with bruises on my side. Because of the seat i was sitting in i could not lift the arms rests up, and because of my height it would have been no different asking someone else to move as i would have just been as uncomfortable only in a different way. So is it the airlines fault for having small seats or is it my fault for being a big guy? I have medical condition. I have also never had a similar problem on any other flights...

LundiMardi

voodoo_child wrote:

If a garda stops you for speeding you cant use the excuse that youve been speeding on that stretch of road for years.

Look, this issue is just about common sense. If you need two seats and its your own fault, you pay for two. Theres nothing offensive about that.

Missing the point... As far as this guy was concerned he did NOT need two seats because he had travelled without problems before.

It's not illegal to be obese, it is illegal to speed so comparing the two is pointless.

the_syco

LundiMardi wrote:

Missing the point... As far as this guy was concerned he did NOT need two seats because he had travelled without problems before.

Aye, but he fails to mention if his waistline was the same back then, or was he a few stone lighter?

LundiMardi

the_syco wrote:

Aye, but he fails to mention if his waistline was the same back then, or was he a few stone lighter?

well we don't know, it neither here nor there... i doubt he's the only large person who's never been asked to pay for a second seat.

Voodu Child

LundiMardi wrote:

Missing the point... As far as this guy was concerned he did NOT need two seats because he had travelled without problems before.

It's not illegal to be obese, it is illegal to speed so comparing the two is pointless.

Sorry Lundi, its yourself missing the point (of my one sentence statement.:rolleyes:)

It had nothing to do with legality - it was the perception that if youve gotten away with something once, you are entitled to get away with it again.

If you missed that point, i coudlnt be bothered arguing with you anymore.

LundiMardi

voodoo_child wrote:

Sorry Lundi, its yourself missing the point (of my one sentence statement.:rolleyes:)

It had nothing to do with legality - it was the perception that if youve gotten away with something once, you are entitled to get away with it again.

If you missed that point, i coudlnt be bothered arguing with you anymore.

Getting away with something illegal is slightly different, if you're caught then tough tits...

However, this guy never ''got away'' with anything... It's not an offence to be a large person in one seat on a plane, as far as this guy was concerned he never did anything wrong.. as appose to speeding, when you know it's wrong.

Do you want me to accompany my argument with illustrations?

Voodu Child

LundiMardi wrote:

Do you want me to accompany my argument with illustrations?

Yeah, do us an illustration of a 25 stone man, and an airline seat.

Sam Vimes

LundiMardi wrote:

No of course not... If you thought you could save a mass amount of money by not paying for a second ticket would you do it? I think you would.

i probably would. but i would not sue the company if they called me on it.

LundiMardi wrote:

The guy is not at fault here, as said already he had flown multiple times with no problem, maybe if there was consitency among the airlines this would have never happened, but there's not. Who's fault is that? Certainly not his.

the inconsistency is not his fault that's true. however, it is in the terms and conditions that he may be asked to pay for an extra seat. he wasn't asked to a few times because people weren't doing their jobs properly and then he was asked by someone who had probably been forced to sit next to someone of his size before. no reason for a law suit imo

LundiMardi wrote:

Missing the point... As far as this guy was concerned he did NOT need two seats because he had travelled without problems before.

It's not illegal to be obese, it is illegal to speed so comparing the two is pointless.

in fact you're missing the point. let's use a different analogy which doesn't involve legality but involves not paying money i would have otherwise had to:

once or twice a company with which i have a direct debit charged me wrongly, in the good way i didn't say anything. if they do it again but then realise their mistake and ask for the money am i entitled to sue them because i got away with it before?

LundiMardi wrote:

Getting away with something illegal is slightly different, if you're caught then tough tits...

However, this guy never ''got away'' with anything... It's not an offence to be a large person in one seat on a plane, as far as this guy was concerned he never did anything wrong..

no he never did anything wrong. i'd probably not pay for an extra seat either. its up to the airline to enforce their policies, not me. but if the airline asked me to do it, i wouldn't sue them. that's were he went wrong.

LundiMardi wrote:

Do you want me to accompany my argument with illustrations?

we understand your argument, we're just telling you you're wrong.

Sam Vimes

voodoo_child wrote:

Yeah, do us an illustration of a 25 stone man, and an airline seat.

already done earlier in the thread

LundiMardi

Commander Vimes wrote:

i probably would. but i would not sue the company if they called me on it.

Well, suing the company is another matter, i think he's suing more so for the humiliation than anything else. I think we're all agreed the airline didn't exactly handle the situation well.

Commander Vimes wrote:

the inconsistency is not his fault that's true. however, it is in the terms and conditions that he may be asked to pay for an extra seat. he wasn't asked to a few times because people weren't doing their jobs properly and then he was asked by someone who had probably been forced to sit next to someone of his size before. no reason for a law suit imo

This is where i refer you back to where you yourself admit you would do something similar in order to save a large amount of money.

Commander Vimes wrote:

in fact you're missing the point. let's use a different analogy which doesn't involve legality but involves not paying money i would have otherwise had to:

once or twice a company with which i have a direct debit charged me wrongly, in the good way i didn't say anything. if they do it again but then realise their mistake and ask for the money am i entitled to sue them because i got away with it before?

That's what's called stealing....

Commander Vimes wrote:

no he never did anything wrong. i'd probably not pay for an extra seat either. its up to the airline to enforce their policies, not me. but if the airline asked me to do it, i wouldn't sue them. that's were he went wrong.

we understand your argument, we're just telling you you're wrong.

Again, i think the humiliation is what the guy is suing for, as would i to be honest.

Sam Vimes

LundiMardi wrote:

Well, suing the company is another matter, i think he's suing more so for the humiliation than anything else. I think we're all agreed the airline didn't exactly handle the situation well.

suing the company is the main matter. if i ended up next to an obese person i'd blame the airline for allowing it to happen. its human nature to try and get away with these things. someone who takes two seats can try to get away with paying for one but when asked to pay for two, he shouldn't sue them

LundiMardi wrote:

This is where i refer you back to where you yourself admit you would do something similar in order to save a large amount of money.

what's your point? its up to the airline to enforce their policies. if people were expected to be trusted to follow the regulations there'd be no need for metal detectors.

LundiMardi wrote:

That's what's called stealing....

if they're not going to ask for the money i'm not going to force them to take it. can you honestly tell me you'd phone up the multi million euro company and remind them of the 20 quid they forgot to put on your bill?

and you're still missing the point of the analogy

LundiMardi wrote:

Again, i think the humiliation is what the guy is suing for, as would i to be honest.

i've been humiliated hundreds of times in my life. i should be a millionaire by now.

i sincerely doubt their first response was to measure his waist. i'd say he had refused to pay several times at that stage and this was a last resort.
he was asked to buy an extra seat on the website. he didn't. then he was asked to but one at the counter and refused. so they measured him to prove that he couldn't fit in one seat. he brought it on himself. no lawsuit

LundiMardi

Commander Vimes wrote:

suing the company is the main matter. if i ended up next to an obese person i'd blame the airline for allowing it to happen. its human nature to try and get away with these things. someone who takes two seats can try to get away with paying for one but when asked to pay for two, he shouldn't sue them

Congratulations on ignoring the second part of my sentence.

Regarding the text in bold? Would you not blame the person in question, why not?

Commander Vimes wrote:

what's your point? its up to the airline to enforce their policies. if people were expected to be trusted to follow the regulations there'd be no need for metal detectors.

I agree, which is why i don't think the guy is at fault.

Commander Vimes wrote:

if they're not going to ask for the money i'm not going to force them to take it. can you honestly tell me you'd phone up the multi million euro company and remind them of the 20 quid they forgot to put on your bill?

and you're still missing the point of the analogy

No i'd wouldn't tell a soul, but i wouldn't go and sue the company involved as i know i'm in the wrong. Like i said multiple times, i don't think the guy was in the wrong, i think the company is, and like i've already said, i think he's suing for the humiliation caused.

Voodu Child

The guy weighed OVER 25 stones. Thats twice what a normal man weighs, and airline seats are pretty cramped even for us.

He humiliated himself by being so stupid as to think he could squeeze into one of those seats without affecting the person/s next to him.

LundiMardi

i'm 23 stone, maybe even a little more. I've only had one instance on that ryanair flight.

Every other flight i've been on has been perfectly comfortable with room to spare, i wouldn't be even close to ''spilling'' out on to the next seat.

Sam Vimes

LundiMardi wrote:

Congratulations on ignoring the second part of my sentence.

ok then. i don't know for sure what happened but as i said above i doubt the measuring tape was brought out at the start. i'd bet, and i'm sure you'd agree, that they brought it out after he refused to pay several times. if he had just bought the ticket on the website as it said he should none of it would have happened. the fact that he got away with it before is irrelevant. it always said he was supposed to and he never did, therefore he was in the wrong.

LundiMardi wrote:

Regarding the text in bold? Would you not blame the person in question, why not?

emm.... read the sentence after the one in bold

LundiMardi wrote:

I agree, which is why i don't think the guy is at fault.

in human terms he's not at fault for not buying the second ticket because most people wouldn't. however, in legal terms he is at fault because he breached the terms and conditions by firstly not buying, and then refusing to buy an extra ticket

LundiMardi wrote:

No i'd wouldn't tell a soul, but i wouldn't go and sue the company involved as i know i'm in the wrong. Like i said multiple times, i don't think the guy was in the wrong, i think the company is, and like i've already said, i think he's suing for the humiliation caused.

and as i said, he was in the wrong. he was supposed to buy and extra ticket. he didn't. when asked again he refused. then they felt it necessary to prove to him that he should. he was given several opportunities to avoid this "humiliation" and didn't take them

Sam Vimes

LundiMardi wrote:

i'm 23 stone, maybe even a little more. I've only had one instance on that ryanair flight.

Every other flight i've been on has been perfectly comfortable with room to spare, i wouldn't be even close to ''spilling'' out on to the next seat.

fair enough if you fit in the seat, but if the staff member informed you that you wouldn't fit in their seats, would you refuse to buy an extra one and force them to prove that your diameter is more than the seat's?

and them sue them for it

InFront

RainyDay wrote:

I may be labouring the point here, but you still have no basis for your 'very very very very very few' claim. Show me the data.

Yes you are labouring the point. I am talking about very very very very few people being obese without actually being able to help it. Now, we're not talking about fat or heavy here, we are talking about obese? Do you realize what that means? Of course genetics and bad hormones can make you fatter than you should be, but with healthy living they cannot actually go so far as to make you obese. That's where McDonalds helps you.

To be honest I don't know if anyone has actually ever sat down with an obese person and asked why they are so. But to put it into context: I (purely as an example because I happen to know it) have a BMI of 20, which is normal. I have no thyroid problems, I don't have cushings disease etc. I'm a normal weight with seemingly normal chemistry going on in my body.

Take a person now where that chemistry is messed up. Now I don't know how much you know about metabolic disease or the like, but it doesn't cause the dramatic expression that is obesity just by itself. Furthermore, most metabolic diseases and hormonal influences (all that I can think of) are treatable. Genetics cannot be treated, but it can be controlled. And if genetics is anything but a very insignificant player, where were all the "obese genese" before the current prevalence? New genes don't just appear overnight.

Where are all of the bad genes and hormonal problems that cause us to lose weight to an extent similar to obesity? Where is the "morbidly skinny" gene? Where is the illness, that, no matter how much we try to eat, we waste away and die? Why should that be less prevalent, in statistical terms, than a disease which causes obesity on the opposite end of the scales - no pun intended.

You ask me to prove that there are incredibly few diseases that "cause" obesity. Apart from the fact that I feel very foolish asking pubmed "the causes of obesity" I did just that, and haven't found anything. Because while all the journals will identify bad genes, and Cushings, and PCOS and Pharmacology as being associated with Obesity, i.e. such things make obesity more likely, not one that I have yet seen will actually identify them as single causes of obesity. Because while these factors may take one close enough to the ledge to see over it, overeating and bad lifestyle actually pushes one over the proverbial ledge into obesity.

Interesting - so how would you suggest that individuals control the 'genetic factors' mentioned in that diagram?

Eat less, live healthily. You might be overweight if you're still unlucky, but not clinically obese.
Rainyday - you aren't actually suggesting that if I am a man with many "fat genes" that even if I eat green leaves and lettuce and stay off the bad stuff, and cycle to work and use the stairs and go to the gym.... that I will STILL be clinically obese no matter what??? I just don't believe that situation exists.

And do you have quick, easy, off-the-shelf cures available for the hormonal problems and drug-related problems mentioned immediately below the nice diagram?

Nobody would be put on a drug that itself "causes" clinical obesity. A friend of mine is currently on steroids for the week (for a mild enough chest infection) and is constantly complaining she's getting fat. That makes sense, she is probably putting ona bit of weight due to the steroids (that's expectd) Now she's still a very small and petite kind of girl, but when she balloons into a huge woman who needs two airline seats despite eating normally, I'll let you know.

And when you say 'there is no exact figure', I presume that you really mean 'I haven't been able to find an exact figure with a few minutes Googling', which is a very different statement.

No I mean there is no exact figure actually.

Voodu Child

LundiMardi wrote:

i'm 23 stone, maybe even a little more. I've only had one instance on that ryanair flight.

Every other flight i've been on has been perfectly comfortable with room to spare, i wouldn't be even close to ''spilling'' out on to the next seat.

Would you be happy sitting next to the guy in the picture thats been posted a few times?

LundiMardi

voodoo_child wrote:

Would you be happy sitting next to the guy in the picture thats been posted a few times?

link? i haven't seen it.

LundiMardi

Commander Vimes wrote:

fair enough if you fit in the seat, but if the staff member informed you that you wouldn't fit in their seats, would you refuse to buy an extra one and force them to prove that your diameter is more than the seat's?

and them sue them for it

first of all i'd laugh in their face. Second of all i'd want to actually sit in the seat before hand to see how big/small it actually is.

On the off chance it's a tight fit i certainly wouldn't be spilling over in to the next seat, so if i;m not causing discomfort to anyone but myself then i think i should have the right to choose if i pay for a second seat. If they argued with that then you're damn right i'd take some kind of legal action if they persisted.

Sam Vimes

InFront wrote:

Eat less, live healthily. You might be overweight if you're still unlucky, but not clinically obese.
Rainyday - you aren't actually suggesting that if I am a man with many "fat genes" that even if I eat green leaves and lettuce and stay off the bad stuff, and cycle to work and use the stairs and go to the gym.... that I will STILL be clinically obese no matter what??? I just don't believe that situation exists.

that is also true. we've been saying that there are people who can't help it but i don't think that situation exists either. if you expend more calories than you ingest its physically impossible to become obese. flab doesn't just appear from fat air.

sure there are people with diseases like prader willie syndrome but these just make it more difficult to keep thin, some conditions more than others. they don't make it impossible

Sam Vimes

LundiMardi wrote:

link? i haven't seen it.

bottom of post

LundiMardi wrote:

On the off chance it's a tight fit i certainly wouldn't be spilling over in to the next seat, so if i;m not causing discomfort to anyone but myself then i think i should have the right to choose if i pay for a second seat.

if you would never spill over to the next seat then this thread isn't about you

LundiMardi wrote:

If they argued with that then you're damn right i'd take some kind of legal action if they persisted.

if they said you wouldn't fit into a seat and were wrong, you could possibly have a case for legal action although i'd never sue over something like that. i hate the litigious society developing here. but if they said you wouldn't fit in the seat and were right there is no law suit there

Voodu Child

LundiMardi wrote:

link? i haven't seen it.

This guy here
https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/44959/36721.jpg

He probably thinks he can fit in the seat too, but i wouldnt want to be sitting beside him on a long flight.

LundiMardi

voodoo_child wrote:

This guy here
https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/44959/36721.jpg

He probably thinks he can fit in the seat too, but i wouldnt want to be sitting beside him on a long flight.

heh heh.. touché... But is that the guy we're talking about? Nope!! so there *sticks out tongue*

Sam Vimes

voodoo_child wrote:

This guy here
https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/44959/36721.jpg

He probably thinks he can fit in the seat too, but i wouldnt want to be sitting beside him on a long flight.

from the movie anger management by the way

Fanny Cradock

LundiMardi wrote:

if i;m not causing discomfort to anyone but myself then i think i should have the right to choose if i pay for a second seat. If they argued with that then you're damn right i'd take some kind of legal action if they persisted.

What if you are then? Would you feel any sort of embarrassment if you caused the person next to you physical discomfort?

The guy in question weighs approximately 25 stone. In weight terms that is equivalent to two of me and possibly my 5 year old nephew as well. Air France suggest that large passengers reserve a second seat just in case.

"Air France's website urges overweight passengers to reserve a second seat, adding that failure to do so might mean they are refused access to an aircraft if it is fully booked."

I fail to see how this chap has not been forewarned or how he has been discriminated against. In fact, I think they have been quite generous (maybe more legally savvy) by not decreeing that a fat passenger must always purchase a second seat.

Prior to boarding should Air France interview passengers to determine if (s)he thinks they would be uncomfortable sitting next to the fat guy? Maybe they should have an 'air seat simulator' set aside where the weighty guys sits next to the passenger so they can make their mind up.

LundiMardi

Fanny Cradock wrote:

What if you are then? Would you feel any sort of embarrassment if you caused the person next to you physical discomfort?

The guy in question weighs approximately 25 stone. In weight terms that is equivalent to two of me and possibly my 5 year old nephew as well. Air France suggest that large passengers reserve a second seat just in case.

"Air France's website urges overweight passengers to reserve a second seat, adding that failure to do so might mean they are refused access to an aircraft if it is fully booked."

I fail to see how this chap has not been forewarned or how he has been discriminated against. In fact, I think they have been quite generous (maybe more legally savvy) by not decreeing that a fat passenger must always purchase a second seat.

Prior to boarding should Air France interview passengers to determine if (s)he thinks they would be uncomfortable sitting next to the fat guy? Maybe they should have an 'air seat simulator' set aside where the weighty guys sits next to the passenger so they can make their mind up.

I'm not going to go over points i've already made in this thread for your ammusement. I've already made myself and my views clear in this instance. Let's just see what the courts decide shall we?

Piste

CathyMoran wrote:

I have hypothroidism which is associated with obesity but actually am skinny (BMI 18.5-20), I also have one of the medical conditions which is linked with obesity (oesphageal cancer) but have never been overweight for a day in my life.

No-one's saying that you must be overweight to contract these medical conditions, just that obese people are at a higher risk of it.

Fanny Cradock

LundiMardi wrote:

Let's just see what the courts decide shall we?

Selfishly, I don't much care what the ruling is as long as my comfort is never sacrificed.

CathyMoran

Piste wrote:

No-one's saying that you must be overweight to contract these medical conditions, just that obese people are at a higher risk of it.

Hypothyroidism, well that can cause people to be fat - I just never was with the condition but I have relatives who have problems as a result, they would not be overweight but they do find it hard managing their weight. As for my horrible cancer, I was just shocked that oesophageal cancer is linked with obesity.

Steroids have contributed to me gaining weight (7-10 lb) temporarily, but I have been on them for two weeks out of four for the past few months, for me that is a huge weight gain, luckily I was massively underweight before I started my chemo but that weight gain could make a huge difference for some people - I know a few people on steroids who are overweight as a result, one friend gained 50lb as a result.

Womens clothes sizes have increased as women got larger, why can seat size on planes just increase accordingly as well?

Voodu Child

CathyMoran wrote:

Womens clothes sizes have increased as women got larger, why can seat size on planes just increase accordingly as well?

A blanket increase in seat sizes would mean a blanket increase in airfares. Im sure you can understand the potential conflict here - fat people would welcome it because a percentage increase is better than paying for 2 seats, whereas most healthy people would oppose it because they dont need it and would rather have cheaper fares than more room.

A certain number of larger seats available at a higher price would be the obvious solution, but i think you would still have the problem of guys like this lawsuit guy causing trouble and trying to squeeze into seats they cant.

JC 2K3

CathyMoran wrote:

Womens clothes sizes have increased as women got larger, why can seat size on planes just increase accordingly as well?

It's not economical, then everyone would have to pay more to fly.

RainyDay

Faith wrote:

Right, RainyDay, you seem determined to argue that obesity is usually attributable to medical conditions. Oh, boohoo, these poor people have X, Y or Z, and that makes them obese. ......

Have you actually been reading my posts? I've never argued that obesity is usually attributable to medical conditions or anything else. I understand that obesity itself causes many other medical conditions - no surprises there. The key issue, as I've explicitly stated is that I don't know what proportion of obesity cases are down to medical conditions. I've also pointed out that all those armchair experts coming up with 'solutions' don't know the answer to this question either.

Faith wrote:

That's just a handful there, to demonstrate my point. Should we still make allowances for these people because they're ill? Despite the fact that it may well have been their own fault? If I drink to excess every night, and develop cirrhosis of the liver, should I be given extra privileges for free anyway, just because I'm sick?

Under current legislation, the cause of medical conditions is irrelevant. Wheelchair users still get disabled parking passes, even if they caused their own injury by collapsing drunk onto a train line. Lung cancer patients still get free treatment, even though they've caused their own condition due to smoking. Why should obesity be treated differently?

InFront wrote:

Yes you are labouring the point. I am talking about very very very very few people being obese without actually being able to help it. Now, we're not talking about fat or heavy here, we are talking about obese? Do you realize what that means? Of course genetics and bad hormones can make you fatter than you should be, but with healthy living they cannot actually go so far as to make you obese. That's where McDonalds helps you.

My point is that you continue with your 'very very very very few' claim when it is clear you have no basis for this claim. You have no idea of what proportion of obese people have medical causes for their obesity. But you continue to pontificate as if you are an expert on this matter, when you clearly are not.

For the record, I'm very clear what obese means, because my GP tells me that I'm obese every time I visit him. I would suggest that most people wouldn't consider me to be obese (height 6'3", weight 16 stone +/- 7 lbs). You might think that I could do with trimming down my belly a bit, but you really wouldn't consider me to be obese. But I am, according to the standard charts which the GP uses.

I'm also stunned that even in cases of 'genetics and bad hormones', the solution is simply a matter of healthy living. You really are demonstrating your ignorance with these unjustified claims. Did you read the Wellcome Trust article about the leptin hormone? Have you done any reading on Prader-Willi syndrome where subnormal intelligence comes into play? Simplistic 'healthy living' solutions just don't make the grade here.

InFront wrote:

You ask me to prove that there are incredibly few diseases that "cause" obesity. Apart from the fact that I feel very foolish asking pubmed "the causes of obesity" I did just that, and haven't found anything. Because while all the journals will identify bad genes, and Cushings, and PCOS and Pharmacology as being associated with Obesity, i.e. such things make obesity more likely, not one that I have yet seen will actually identify them as single causes of obesity. Because while these factors may take one close enough to the ledge to see over it, overeating and bad lifestyle actually pushes one over the proverbial ledge into obesity.

You can't seperate the medical conditions from overeating and bad lifestyle. If you have a ravenous appetitite as a result of Prader Willi syndrome or the absence of the leptin hormone, overeating is part and parcel of the medical condition. You can't seperate the two, and simply say to these patients that they should eat properly.

InFront wrote:

Nobody would be put on a drug that itself "causes" clinical obesity. A friend of mine is currently on steroids for the week (for a mild enough chest infection) and is constantly complaining she's getting fat. That makes sense, she is probably putting ona bit of weight due to the steroids (that's expectd) Now she's still a very small and petite kind of girl, but when she balloons into a huge woman who needs two airline seats despite eating normally, I'll let you know.

Yet again, I have to ask you for your source for the definitive claim that 'nobody' would be put on a drug that causes obesity. A quick Googling shows up some interesting cases;

http://scholar.google.com/scholar%3Fq%3Dauthor:%22Wetterling%22+intitle:%22Weight+gain:+side+effect+of+atypical+neuroleptics%22+%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26rls%3DGGGL,GGGL:2006-22,GGGL:en%26oi%3Dscholarr

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=39908

http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/136/8/I38

So please do explain the basis for your definitive claim above.

InFront wrote:

No I mean there is no exact figure actually.

And your basis for this claim is?

InFront

RainyDay wrote:

The key issue, as I've explicitly stated is that I don't know what proportion of obesity cases are down to medical conditions. I've also pointed out that all those armchair experts coming up with 'solutions' don't know the answer to this question either.

So you do actually believe there are cases where no matter how often you exercise, no matter how healthily you eat, you will always be obese? Even if you stay away from indulging in chocolates and cakes, and cyrcle in and out of work, and go swimming and all of that, you will still be obese because of, say, genetics? Get real.

Under current legislation, the cause of medical conditions is irrelevant. Wheelchair users still get disabled parking passes, even if they caused their own injury by collapsing drunk onto a train line. Lung cancer patients still get free treatment, even though they've caused their own condition due to smoking. Why should obesity be treated differently?

Because obesity is the equivalent of falling drunk onto to a train line every hour of everyday (or every mealtime of every day, perhaps). Unlike smoking, itself no innocent pastime, food is not an addiction, it is a choice one consciously makes.

My point is that you continue with your 'very very very very few' claim when it is clear you have no basis for this claim.

Well I can because it's my opinion. Based on what I've read and what Ive learned, though not having gathered any stats (because I dont believe they exist), I have formed the personal opinion that very very very very few people are obese beyond control. I think it's a reasonable opinion to have, given the nature of obesity.

You have no idea of what proportion of obese people have medical causes for their obesity. But you continue to pontificate as if you are an expert on this matter, when you clearly are not.

I'm not an expert on it and never claimed to be, but I have read a lot about it, and have been examined on this topic for what I study, and I think I have a reasonable idea of what causes obesity. It's no more a valid opinion than anyone else, and it certainly isn't a 'pontification'. But I do think I have a fair idea of what proportion of people have medical causes for obesity, and to be honest it isnt that far removed from what common sense should tell you.

For the record, I'm very clear what obese means, because my GP tells me that I'm obese every time I visit him. I would suggest that most people wouldn't consider me to be obese (height 6'3", weight 16 stone +/- 7 lbs).

Yeah, presuming youre a man thats a BMI of about 29.3 right? Well, that's just under the obese threshold, and maybe you're an exception, but it just doesnt translate to say that most people at that BMI level dont look it or arent posing a danger to their own health. That generally is, in fact, the case.

I'm also stunned that even in cases of 'genetics and bad hormones', the solution is simply a matter of healthy living. You really are demonstrating your ignorance with these unjustified claims.

Genetics, certainly but I didn't say that was the only solution to irregular hormone activity, if a patient has CCK problems (for example) there are other interventions that can be made.

What do youi think is the better alternative do ovrcoming "bad genes"? or "fat genes"? Do you not agree that exercise and good dietary behaviour are the most effective ways of overcoming that problem? As someone who has tried, ludicrously unsuccessfully to be a rugby player despite his rather geeky body type, I know how hard (yet possible) it is to overcome my own genetic predisposition to a certain weight.
Altering one's bodyweight is entirely possible, if it is possible for "genetically thin" people to become heavier why should it be impossible for "genetically heavy" people to become thin?

Ultimate control of extremes of bodyweight always boils down to one common denominator: healthy food, healthy living. Invariably, they are missing in the morbidly thin and in the morbidly obese.

Did you read the Wellcome Trust article about the leptin hormone? Have you done any reading on Prader-Willi syndrome where subnormal intelligence comes into play? Simplistic 'healthy living' solutions just don't make the grade here.

Everybody who has ever read up on obesity knows all about leptin, and CCK and the glucostat theory and the hypothalmus and all of that wonderful science, and isnt it great we know so much about satiety and bodyweight. What really is simplistic, and if you dont accept this I think youre avoiding it, is that leptin problems, and PW syndrome alone, do not cause an explosion in bodywight to levels of clinical obesity, they are merely associated with it. That is why it can be said that not all people with leptin problems, etc, are obese: they certainly are not all obese, because they control their problem.

It's like saying: all people with bad eyesight cause car crashes: no, they don't. The ones who do nothing about it and carry on down the road of irresponsibility may well do so, but those who combat their unfortunate physiology with lifestyle choices, or by wearing glasses, or find other means of getting around, do not.

You can't seperate the medical conditions from overeating and bad lifestyle. If you have a ravenous appetitite as a result of Prader Willi syndrome or the absence of the leptin hormone, overeating is part and parcel of the medical condition.

Problems with leptin can be treated by hormone therapy. PWS can also be managed successfully, by GH therapy and also, as this article stresses, healthy dietary and lifestyle choices.

And the PWS Association of GBR would seem to disagree with your opinion on the silliness of healthy eating and healthy lifestyle as preventing obesity

Apart from various hormone treatments and some surgical intervention (eg, to bring down undescended testes), there is no "cure" for PWS. There have been many advances in the fields of genetics, but it will be several years before the genes which are involved in PWS are fully identified. No drug so far has proved to be of lasting help with regard to suppressing appetite. Severe challenging behaviour and some mental health problems have responded relatively successfully to drug treatment, but dosages need to be carefully monitored. Generally speaking however, many of the adverse effects of the syndrome can be lessened by good dietary management, exercise programmes, good general health care, and by good general management of behaviour and education.

You might do well to remember that while PWS may equal an overweight child or adult, it does not equal clinical obesity for life.

RainyDay, can you please tell us about one condition you know of which *causes* untreatable obesity???

Yet again, I have to ask you for your source for the definitive claim that 'nobody' would be put on a drug that causes obesity. A quick Googling shows up some interesting cases;

http://scholar.google.com/scholar%3Fq%3Dauthor:%22Wetterling%22+intitle:%22Weight+gain:+side+effect+of+atypical+neuroleptics%22+%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26rls%3DGGGL,GGGL:2006-22,GGGL:en%26oi%3Dscholarr

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=39908

http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/136/8/I38

You're not doing your case any favours here. Number one: to clarify my point, no person would be put on a drug that is known to cause obesity. If a drug is suddenly found to "cause" obesity you can be pretty sure it will lose its license for prescription here. Secondly: those drugs that are "assocated with" an increase in bodyweight do not "create" increased bodyweight... they create an environment in which a person is more susceptible to obesity if they do not control their behaviours. Taking them does not automatically make one obese... do you not see that??!

]Originally Posted by InFront
No I mean there is no exact figure actually.

And your basis for this claim is?

Ah for goodness' sake my basis for this "claim" is whats between my ears, and yours as well, how can there possibly be an exact number (which is what you are asking for) for all the people in ireland? In Europe? In the world with uncontrollable obesity, assuming such a thing exists? Even an accurate approximation would be impossible, given the nature of the obese condition... it's like asking "how many able bodied people drowned last year because they were physically unable to learn how to swim"... ridiculous.

TerrorFirmer

fat mans gigantic bulk hinders others and causes humiliation - he needs to either loose weight or cop on to the fact he's a fat bloater.

I think that provides an apt and just summary for this thread so far.

RainyDay

voodoo_child wrote:

Ive re-read my posts and dont see anything that could be taken as offensive by any reasonable and mature person. You seem to find any posts containing negative opinions of obese people offensive. Personally, i think life is a wonderful gift, and i find eating yourself into obesity offensive.

So just to be absolutely clear, you see nothing offensive about terms like 'tubbies' and 'lardass likes his cream pies' to describe a condition which in some cases is caused by medical or genetic conditions?

InFront wrote:

Because obesity is the equivalent of falling drunk onto to a train line every hour of everyday (or every mealtime of every day, perhaps). Unlike smoking, itself no innocent pastime, food is not an addiction, it is a choice one consciously makes.

So food is not an addiction? Interesting comment - to use your own phrase, you're not doing yourself any favours here. See

http://www.irishhealth.com/index.html?level=4&id=10320

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2707143.stm

and even a personal story from boards.ie. Why would reputable operations like the Rutland Centre be offering residential treatments for food addiction, if no such addictions exist. Your overly-simplistic solutions of diet/exercise are just that - overly simplistic.

I'm not an expert on obesity. You know much more about obesity than I do. Your claim of 'very very very very very few' is a matter of your opinion, no more, no less. I don't know enough to prove this wrong, but I think it is important that we all recognise that you have no sound basis for this claim in research. If indeed the prevelance of medical causes of obesity was so tiny, one would wonder why there isn't easily accessible research to confirm this.